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Infiltration and why it sucks horribly

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  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Would it be more interesting if all IC information was trafficked ICly and thus more easily intercepted? Yes. 

    Will people convey their IC information in the less secure IC world because its the "right" thing to do? A very few will.

    Can you force more information to be transferred ICly? Not without keeping a record of every scrap of information a character hears and speaks of ICLy. 


    As for actually infiltrating an organization to glean their secrets and then run back home, no. I hate this. The ball is entirely in the infiltrator's court. The organization has zero opportunity to root out the infiltrator unless he/she is benevolent enough OOCly to leave clues to his/her true allegiances. Its lame, its a pretty OOC maneuver, and the organization is pretty screwed over from the beginning.

    image
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:
    So much for a roleplay enforced environment. The validity of any infiltrator/spy type of play is contingent on the people you are spying on having any form of character integrity, and that is apparently an OK and acceptable thing as per the responses from Sarapis and the rest in this thread.

    How disappointing.

    Personally, I think discouraging sensitive IC communication lowers the chance someone will slip up in-game. You've more of a shot with purely safe methods in place on the chance someone will forget to use them. I picked up on several sensitive topics back when I was a serpent because one person in the group was speaking Achaean still.

    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014

    Daeir said:
    You either have a world with consequences, or you don't. If you're getting involved in shit that is going to culminate in "having your gameplay experience ruined" by talking about things with people privately and having someone overhear it and use it to their advantage, then that is how the cookie crumbles - and it is supposedly part of the "living and vibrant world of Achaea" in that regard. You don't get to evade that just because it is potentially uncomfortable or untenable to your current position in the game. This is why Achaea's politics are largely a gigantic joke, because people cannot seem to understand this concept. They equate IC stress to OOC stress and are seemingly incapable of splitting the two.

    All I am seeing from this thread otherwise is people supporting the concept of a world without consequences by agreeing that these changes are unfeasible simply because players will shift to an OOC environment to discuss things otherwise. Be that as it may, you are supporting that notion by not condemning it, and the only thing that suffers for its loss is the credibility and life of the world that our characters otherwise live in.

    I cordially point you all to HELP ROLEPOINTS. Divine should be docking them frequently for offenses of this nature.

    @Daier , @Shirszae :

    I really don't understand the two of you. There are ways to have in-game privacy with almost zero chance of eavesdropping, beds especially. Party Tell can be eavesdropped on by the Divine, but to my knowledge no one else. I dislike beds for privacy because the RP implications of taking my character's in-game daughter or mother into my bed "for a private talk" are, to me, really messed up. If you feel that strongly about this, you might want to recommend the equivalent of a bed that's not a bed.

    Following from that, if you can't eavesdrop on a bed and you can't eavesdrop on PT, who cares if people use Skype instead? It has literally the same result, with nobody listening. And people tend to already use PT for OOC communication, so the difference between PT and Skype is blurred, at best.

  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:

    I cordially point you all to HELP ROLEPOINTS. Divine should be docking them frequently for offenses of this nature.

    How precisely will they be able to tell someone is communicating out of game? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying they should lose rolepoints for.

    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,161 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aalm said:

    Daeir said:
    You either have a world with consequences, or you don't. If you're getting involved in shit that is going to culminate in "having your gameplay experience ruined" by talking about things with people privately and having someone overhear it and use it to their advantage, then that is how the cookie crumbles - and it is supposedly part of the "living and vibrant world of Achaea" in that regard. You don't get to evade that just because it is potentially uncomfortable or untenable to your current position in the game. This is why Achaea's politics are largely a gigantic joke, because people cannot seem to understand this concept. They equate IC stress to OOC stress and are seemingly incapable of splitting the two.

    All I am seeing from this thread otherwise is people supporting the concept of a world without consequences by agreeing that these changes are unfeasible simply because players will shift to an OOC environment to discuss things otherwise. Be that as it may, you are supporting that notion by not condemning it, and the only thing that suffers for its loss is the credibility and life of the world that our characters otherwise live in.

    I cordially point you all to HELP ROLEPOINTS. Divine should be docking them frequently for offenses of this nature.

    @Daier , @Shirszae :

    I really don't understand the two of you. There are ways to have in-game privacy with almost zero chance of eavesdropping, beds especially. Party Tell can be eavesdropped on by the Divine, but to my knowledge no one else. I dislike beds for privacy because the RP implications of taking my character's in-game daughter or mother into my bed "for a private talk" are, to me, really messed up. If you feel that strongly about this, you might want to recommend the equivalent of a bed that's not a bed.

    Following from that, if you can't eavesdrop on a bed and you can't eavesdrop on PT, who cares if people use Skype instead? It has literally the same result, with nobody listening. And people tend to already use PT for OOC communication, so the difference between PT and Skype is blurred, at best.

    Its just a cowardly thing to do, using OOC as an excuse to pass on IC information while completely avoiding the possibility of being caught. As you well said, there are safe ways to hold conversations. Either find them, or take the risk of not being completely safe all the time.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Aalm None of those IC methods are perfect. Beds don't (and aren't intended to) provide perfect privacy. I've listened in on conversations in beds several times, and even spied in person (primarily thanks to the Shop of Wonders pillows which remove a lot of the security of beds), and then there are ways to prevent people from using beds in the first place. Ships are harder, mostly requiring connections or social engineering (somehow getting boarding perms), but again there are ways to partially penetrate the privacy of ships without actually being on the ship. Parties and messages can be intercepted as well, though not easily. 

    Besides that, using IC methods to protect your privacy allows people to see that there's something to protect, which can be important even if they can't actually find out what you're saying or doing. Using OOC methods of communication bypasses any possibility of IC interaction/consequences.

    AlcinaeJurixe
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014
    Sena said:

    @Aalm None of those IC methods are perfect. Beds don't (and aren't intended to) provide perfect privacy. I've listened in on conversations in beds several times, and even spied in person (primarily thanks to the Shop of Wonders pillows which remove a lot of the security of beds), and then there are ways to prevent people from using beds in the first place. Ships are harder, mostly requiring connections or social engineering (somehow getting boarding perms), but again there are ways to partially penetrate the privacy of ships without actually being on the ship. Parties and messages can be intercepted as well, though not easily. 

    Besides that, using IC methods to protect your privacy allows people to see that there's something to protect, which can be important even if they can't actually find out what you're saying or doing. Using OOC methods of communication bypasses any possibility of IC interaction/consequences.

    @Sena : I just want to play without drama or scandals, and I want my private words to just be heard by the person I want them heard by. I don't want to have to watch my back in every conversation. Games are supposed to be fun, this is really not fun. More like the intense stress of corporate politics without the accompanying 220,000 usd/year paycheck.

    Old-school theft was also considered highly realistic and necessary for "full immersion" in Achaea, but Tecton did a lot of research and concluded that it was costing this game a LOT of players, and it was scrapped. In my mind, espionage and the sale of private information to hostile parties is very similarly harmful, though much easier to prevent.

    Jules
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,838 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I'm not a fan of IC/OOC breeches, and people using Skype and other OOC methods for IG stuff is pretty much the equivalent of meta gaming, because at no point was any of the information conveyed in game. I'm also surprised that Vicious never issued Katzchen after making it publicly known that a lot of his HDF/CDF/Probations were the result of Skype conversations, but hey, that's a whole other issue.

    People who actually play the game should be using all in-game channels of communication (parties are considered OOC for the most part) and there's still a wide range of precautions that can be taken to secure most of those channels of communication. A lot of the time, I usually end up sending messages to people, sometimes letters, sometimes I'll stick to just using tells. I've used the privacy room in my house for some conversations, a lot of conversations have happened on ships, and it's been specified more than once that even SAYs on ships should be kept ICly. If I'm not mistaken, Eari got scolded by Sartan when he, Bonko, and I used to idle on my ship.

    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2014

    @Kyrra wait, what? I spoke to people through in game messages... or tells. Sure I discuss things through skype, especially if I can't log in but never ONLY that. If something required action or discussion IC I'd then log in and have the same convo again IC if needed. I'd never have HDF/etc anyone for that. How the hell would Vicious know what I do and don't talk to people about via messages?



                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



    ShirszaeKeiArador
  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenMember Posts: 2,492 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Long and short. If you catch people being stupid, wohoo! You win. If not, aww. Don't cry about it. Try harder next time. Don't use ooc methods for ic shit, keep the barrier, and life gets better. Tbh? If I want a private talk, I go on a ship, or somewhere quiet. someone overhears? Well shit, bargain for the person to keep quiet, or fuck up and they talk. Saying there's no consequences is laughable. There still are.

    ShirszaeTharvis
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014
    Katzchen said:

    It's really no wonder no one wants leadership roles. :/ It kills all interest in this game when there's always someone spreading bullshit about you and/or whining.

    @Katzchen : I've never held a leadership post beyond security aide and I don't want any leadership posts, either. My experiences come from somebody fucking with my friend's head, me assuring that friend that the somebody poses no threat to her, this gets recorded on Angel Mindread and I am being "confronted" by that "offended" somebody. I told her the content of my tells is none of her fucking business and if she doesn't want to deal with pissed-off people, she shouldn't piss people off. That's the answer to @Shirszae 's allegations of "cowardly behavior" on my part. It's not that I CAN'T do this, it's that I strongly prefer to play the game without it.

    Are you actually saying one could only want total privacy because they're spreading rumors or talking trash? Man, no wonder the NSA has everybody's data stored and collected. By this reasoning, a guy and his girlfriend behind locked doors should be a hardcore porno for a government employee with a low security clearance. If they're not guilty, they should have nothing to hide, right?

  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aalm said:
    Katzchen said:

    It's really no wonder no one wants leadership roles. :/ It kills all interest in this game when there's always someone spreading bullshit about you and/or whining.

    @Katzchen : I've never held a leadership post beyond security aide and I don't want any leadership posts, either. My experiences come from somebody fucking with my friend's head, me assuring that friend that the somebody poses no threat to her, this gets recorded on Angel Mindread and I am being "confronted" by that "offended" somebody. I told her the content of my tells is none of her fucking business and if she doesn't want to deal with pissed-off people, she shouldn't piss people off. It's not that I CAN'T do this, it's that I prefer to play the game without it.

    Are you actually saying one could only want total privacy because they're spreading rumors or talking trash? Man, no wonder the NSA has everybody's data stored and collected. By this reasoning, a guy and his girlfriend behind locked doors should be a hardcore porno for a government employee with a low security clearance.

    There are still cities that don't have laws about this being used? I know Hashan has a very clear law on spying/privacy breach. Hell, somebody was even enemied for running around the city wearing the helm of telepathy

    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

    Shirszae
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014
    Tharvis said:
    Aalm said:
    Katzchen said:

    It's really no wonder no one wants leadership roles. :/ It kills all interest in this game when there's always someone spreading bullshit about you and/or whining.

    @Katzchen : I've never held a leadership post beyond security aide and I don't want any leadership posts, either. My experiences come from somebody fucking with my friend's head, me assuring that friend that the somebody poses no threat to her, this gets recorded on Angel Mindread and I am being "confronted" by that "offended" somebody. I told her the content of my tells is none of her fucking business and if she doesn't want to deal with pissed-off people, she shouldn't piss people off. It's not that I CAN'T do this, it's that I prefer to play the game without it.

    Are you actually saying one could only want total privacy because they're spreading rumors or talking trash? Man, no wonder the NSA has everybody's data stored and collected. By this reasoning, a guy and his girlfriend behind locked doors should be a hardcore porno for a government employee with a low security clearance.

    There are still cities that don't have laws about this being used? I know Hashan has a very clear law on spying/privacy breach. Hell, somebody was even enemied for running around the city wearing the helm of telepathy

    @Tharvis : you're absolutely right, using Mindread is against city law, but the transcript of what happened was 50 Word pages long, and there was more than one priest in the room, so we couldn't determine for certain which of the priests used the skill. I am fairly sure I know who did it, but not with such certainty that I could go to the city. Had we been able to determine this, the person that did this would have some serious problems with the city government.

    Shirszae
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,161 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2014
    Aalm said:
    Katzchen said:

    It's really no wonder no one wants leadership roles. :/ It kills all interest in this game when there's always someone spreading bullshit about you and/or whining.

    @Katzchen : I've never held a leadership post beyond security aide and I don't want any leadership posts, either. My experiences come from somebody fucking with my friend's head, me assuring that friend that the somebody poses no threat to her, this gets recorded on Angel Mindread and I am being "confronted" by that "offended" somebody. I told her the content of my tells is none of her fucking business and if she doesn't want to deal with pissed-off people, she shouldn't piss people off. That's the answer to @Shirszae 's allegations of "cowardly behavior" on my part. It's not that I CAN'T do this, it's that I strongly prefer to play the game without it.

    Are you actually saying one could only want total privacy because they're spreading rumors or talking trash? Man, no wonder the NSA has everybody's data stored and collected. By this reasoning, a guy and his girlfriend behind locked doors should be a hardcore porno for a government employee with a low security clearance. If they're not guilty, they should have nothing to hide, right?

    Use whatever excuses you want. The fact is, by using skype or shit like that to bypass danger, you are meta-gaming. And yes, whether you like it or not, that makes you a coward that can't take the consequences of your own ic actions.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Achimrst
  • AradorArador Member Posts: 1,696 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Kyrra he did not because that is not what happened. That was all discussed IG first before action was taken.

    Shirszae
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014
    Shirszae said:
    Aalm said:
    Katzchen said:

    It's really no wonder no one wants leadership roles. :/ It kills all interest in this game when there's always someone spreading bullshit about you and/or whining.

    @Katzchen : I've never held a leadership post beyond security aide and I don't want any leadership posts, either. My experiences come from somebody fucking with my friend's head, me assuring that friend that the somebody poses no threat to her, this gets recorded on Angel Mindread and I am being "confronted" by that "offended" somebody. I told her the content of my tells is none of her fucking business and if she doesn't want to deal with pissed-off people, she shouldn't piss people off. That's the answer to @Shirszae 's allegations of "cowardly behavior" on my part. It's not that I CAN'T do this, it's that I strongly prefer to play the game without it.

    Are you actually saying one could only want total privacy because they're spreading rumors or talking trash? Man, no wonder the NSA has everybody's data stored and collected. By this reasoning, a guy and his girlfriend behind locked doors should be a hardcore porno for a government employee with a low security clearance. If they're not guilty, they should have nothing to hide, right?

    Use whatever excuses you want. The fact is, by using skype or shit like that, you are meta-gaming. And yes, whether you like it or not, that makes you a coward that can't take the consequences of your own ic actions.

    Christ. I am being called a coward by some internet lowlife that's obviously too screwed-up in the head to go and do something productive. Let me put it this way, since you're obviously too busy rubbing your e-penis to get the more subtle version: the content of my conversations is not ANYBODY'S business, yours least of all. Shout your conversations to everybody for all I care. Mine are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Ok? Got it?

    ShirszaeAchimrst
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,161 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aalm said:
    Shirszae said:
    Aalm said:
    Katzchen said:

    It's really no wonder no one wants leadership roles. :/ It kills all interest in this game when there's always someone spreading bullshit about you and/or whining.

    @Katzchen : I've never held a leadership post beyond security aide and I don't want any leadership posts, either. My experiences come from somebody fucking with my friend's head, me assuring that friend that the somebody poses no threat to her, this gets recorded on Angel Mindread and I am being "confronted" by that "offended" somebody. I told her the content of my tells is none of her fucking business and if she doesn't want to deal with pissed-off people, she shouldn't piss people off. That's the answer to @Shirszae 's allegations of "cowardly behavior" on my part. It's not that I CAN'T do this, it's that I strongly prefer to play the game without it.

    Are you actually saying one could only want total privacy because they're spreading rumors or talking trash? Man, no wonder the NSA has everybody's data stored and collected. By this reasoning, a guy and his girlfriend behind locked doors should be a hardcore porno for a government employee with a low security clearance. If they're not guilty, they should have nothing to hide, right?

    Use whatever excuses you want. The fact is, by using skype or shit like that, you are meta-gaming. And yes, whether you like it or not, that makes you a coward that can't take the consequences of your own ic actions.

    Christ. I am being called a coward by some internet lowlife that's obviously too screwed-up in the head to go and do something productive. Let me put it this way, since you're obviously too busy rubbing your e-penis to get the more subtle version: the content of my conversations is not ANYBODY'S business, yours least of all.

    Also, the friend who was being trolled and whom I was defending is in your order. Maybe I should show her your scribblings, and then you can have a little conversation with her and tell her she's a coward too, see how far that gets you.

    The more you speak, the more painfully obvious it becomes that you don't know the difference between IC and OOC. Whatever. Continue hiding in your perfect world free of consequences.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Achimrst
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Shirszae said:
    Aalm said:
    Shirszae said:
    Aalm said:
    Katzchen said:

    It's really no wonder no one wants leadership roles. :/ It kills all interest in this game when there's always someone spreading bullshit about you and/or whining.

    @Katzchen : I've never held a leadership post beyond security aide and I don't want any leadership posts, either. My experiences come from somebody fucking with my friend's head, me assuring that friend that the somebody poses no threat to her, this gets recorded on Angel Mindread and I am being "confronted" by that "offended" somebody. I told her the content of my tells is none of her fucking business and if she doesn't want to deal with pissed-off people, she shouldn't piss people off. That's the answer to @Shirszae 's allegations of "cowardly behavior" on my part. It's not that I CAN'T do this, it's that I strongly prefer to play the game without it.

    Are you actually saying one could only want total privacy because they're spreading rumors or talking trash? Man, no wonder the NSA has everybody's data stored and collected. By this reasoning, a guy and his girlfriend behind locked doors should be a hardcore porno for a government employee with a low security clearance. If they're not guilty, they should have nothing to hide, right?

    Use whatever excuses you want. The fact is, by using skype or shit like that, you are meta-gaming. And yes, whether you like it or not, that makes you a coward that can't take the consequences of your own ic actions.

    Christ. I am being called a coward by some internet lowlife that's obviously too screwed-up in the head to go and do something productive. Let me put it this way, since you're obviously too busy rubbing your e-penis to get the more subtle version: the content of my conversations is not ANYBODY'S business, yours least of all.

    Also, the friend who was being trolled and whom I was defending is in your order. Maybe I should show her your scribblings, and then you can have a little conversation with her and tell her she's a coward too, see how far that gets you.

    The more you speak, the more painfully obvious it becomes that you don't know the difference between IC and OOC. Whatever. Continue hiding in your perfect world free of consequences.

    If this was just my problem, this idea would be approved. In fact the creator of the game we're all in came in here and said it wasn't going to happen. The vast majority of people use methods like Skype to communicate, including a huge number of leaders. So, according to you, nearly everybody in the game's a coward and playing the game wrong -- except for you and the fairly few that think like you.

    Achimrst
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