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Alchemist combat.

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  • AduanAduan Member Posts: 40 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 2014
    The problem with alchemists preventing someone to run is their own balance. If someone tumbles right after the alchemist attacks, they have a very good chance to be free before the alchemist can act. Changing ether displace wouldn't do anything.

    The main issues on alchemist for as far as i can see are:
    - Homunculus attacks every 10 seconds. 
    - Wrack and Truewrack have a balance recovery over 4 seconds
    - Educing has a balance recovery of approximately 3.5 seconds

    The damage attacks of the alchemist will never outstack someones curing, unless it is bleeding. Normal damage from educe iron which is about 900 damage for 14 intelligence at that speed won't 'do' much. Even if you combine it with inundating Choleric (drain health) the damage reaches up to 1300 damage for a 4 second attack, which counts as a spike (this damage output cannot be maintained for prolonged time). The same for the mana drain.

    Speeding up the inundating/truewracking makes it impossible to eat ginger/antimony to lower fluid, making alchemists too dangerous. 

    Alchemists are stuck with a balance combination that doesn't really work for afflicting and is too slow for outright damaging. The bleeding is fairly the only option for an outright fight. I think the entire wracking principle needs to be revised before the choleric/melancholic/aurify idea could become a functional idea. At the same time, the damage might have to become more percentage based to remain effective.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tumble takes 4 seconds to complete. Which Alchemist abilities take longer than 4 seconds of balance/equilibrium that you use in combat?

    Truewrack is actually 2.5 seconds balance, and wrack is between 1.5 and 2, and that's -without nimble-. However, you have to factor in that you can catch them off herb balance because they're eating antimony/ginger, and you can get two Humours tempered quick enough for paralysis/clumsiness or paralysis/asthma to stick an affliction almost immediately. It's already fairly impossible to keep eating antimony while being truewracked without seriously opening yourself up to a lock or severe hindering. 

    You could buy a torc of telepathy or a level 2, or level 3 dirk and begin with an effective method of hindering simultaneous to tempering, but that's a big investment for something that could be implemented through a classlead. It doesn't take too long to build up one humour to wrack paralysis and stop them from eating antimony for the next Humour to be tempered very quickly.

    OVERALL, though, it is quite lackluster and it would be nice if the balance of truewracking sped up as the opponent's fluid level increased, perhaps .1s per fluid level increase. With the base of 2.5, this results in a 1.9 with full fluid levels on the opponent. Either that, or a .1s increase for every Humour tempered, maxing out at 2.1. It would be crazy strong, but a lot more fun than dealing with the current inexplicable emphasis on bleeding for both parties imo.
    Domanic
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Aduan said:
    The problem with alchemists preventing someone to run is their own balance. If someone tumbles right after the alchemist attacks, they have a very good chance to be free before the alchemist can act. Changing ether displace wouldn't do anything.

    The main issues on alchemist for as far as i can see are:
    - Homunculus attacks every 10 seconds. 
    - Wrack and Truewrack have a balance recovery over 4 seconds
    - Educing has a balance recovery of approximately 3.5 seconds

    The damage attacks of the alchemist will never outstack someones curing, unless it is bleeding. Normal damage from educe iron which is about 900 damage for 14 intelligence at that speed won't 'do' much. Even if you combine it with inundating Choleric (drain health) the damage reaches up to 1300 damage for a 4 second attack, which counts as a spike (this damage output cannot be maintained for prolonged time). The same for the mana drain.

    Speeding up the inundating/truewracking makes it impossible to eat ginger/antimony to lower fluid, making alchemists too dangerous. 

    Alchemists are stuck with a balance combination that doesn't really work for afflicting and is too slow for outright damaging. The bleeding is fairly the only option for an outright fight. I think the entire wracking principle needs to be revised before the choleric/melancholic/aurify idea could become a functional idea. At the same time, the damage might have to become more percentage based to remain effective.
    Wrack is actually pretty fast if you don't educe anything.
    Xith
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pretty sure iron does more than 900 too.
    image
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Iron is the only ability in alchemy where it would make sense to be affected by Intelligence. I don't think anything else is affected by it. It would make it -way- too overpowered if humourism balance worked off intelligence, for example. And I rather like that, honestly. It means that everyone is coming into a mostly-even playing field, where alchemical combat is concerned.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iron is 500 + 8% of max health (before intelligence), magic damage I think. So with low-ish int against someone with trans constitution, 900 sounds about right.
  • RexiaRexia Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The only thing I don't like about Alchemist combat is how limited it is. I wish there were some more abilities and other viable paths to getting a kill.

    Right now it's really just stack up the bleeding and don't die or let your opponent run whilst you do it.
    Hellen
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Pretty much. Or Reave, though that's more unlikely. I'd love for there to be more beneficial options for Physiology, but again, balance is an issue. It would be interesting to be able to do positive things on tempered humours, though.
    Rexia
  • RexiaRexia Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Does anyone know what cures choleric is supposed to block? It doesn't seem to block mineral/herbal cures.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Things like tree tattoo, focus, educe salt, bloodboil, etc.
    Rexia
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rexia said:
    Does anyone know what cures choleric is supposed to block? It doesn't seem to block mineral/herbal cures.
    that's why I flew away every single time you did that. also, homunculus block OP.
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So if choleric can block tree and stuff, they can sort of lock without paralysis? Oh gosh I can't wait for multiclass, I'm gonna be so Humourous.

    But also they should get a defense like Ethervision or something that lets them see the wrack results of random wracks/truewracks. or wait, maybe just make that a thing?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Illideus
  • VithincusVithincus Member Posts: 149 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    so how are the changes?

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,287 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd like to see anyone duel @Jhui‌ right now.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Dalran
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean

    I did twice. See the results on clouds. 

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,287 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    SVO won't eat ginger for some reason.


    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • SeifurSeifur Member Posts: 64 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Atalkez said:

    SVO won't eat ginger for some reason.

    Fluid level used to max out at 5 (now 10) and ginger/antimony didn't used to get rid of an entire fluid level before. So Svo gets confused.

    retired
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The diagnose lines are also radically different, so when you diagnose, SVO thinks your humours are fully cured.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Kuy said:
    The diagnose lines are also radically different, so when you diagnose, SVO thinks your humours are fully cured.

    Serversiiiiiiiiiiiiiide! Well i am sure Vadi will get around to fixing it soon. I am working on some priority switching depending on one of their 3-4 strategies. 

  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,266 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    New alchemist is a hell of a lot of fun to use/watch used. Wish reave would be cooler, though.



    ShunsuiMelodieAtalkez
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nemutaur said:
    Kuy said:
    The diagnose lines are also radically different, so when you diagnose, SVO thinks your humours are fully cured.

    Serversiiiiiiiiiiiiiide! Well i am sure Vadi will get around to fixing it soon. I am working on some priority switching depending on one of their 3-4 strategies. 

    I'm not quite confident in my own abilities to switch to serverside quite yet, heh.  I'm still trying to get a solid foot on... well... everything.


    :(

    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • ShunsuiShunsui Member Posts: 681 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dunn said:

    New alchemist is a hell of a lot of fun to use/watch used. Wish reave would be cooler, though.

    Agreed mostly, but what more do you want from reave? I can't think of anything better than watching someone die choking on their own blood, bile and phlegm D:


    Now if only I wasn't a retard when it came to locking people I could probably pull it off

    Illideus
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,147 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2014

    My question is, is reave anymore achievable now than it was before?

    Aurify is neat and all, but reave's deathsight is just awesome. It's a real shame we never see it.

    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
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  • ShunsuiShunsui Member Posts: 681 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Definitely more achievable now than it was before. The relaxed requirements on truewrack along with the overall increase in pace of alchemist combat help a lot.

    Melodie
  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,266 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Channeled instant kills like reave leave a lot to be desired. Tzantza is in the same boat.



    Shunsui[Deleted User]
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    I have no idea what they're doing with Reave any more. Its definitely much more achievable now, due to the fact that you only need one level in two humours at max, but it seems they took the instant-kill part of it away. I'll have to play around with it a bit more.

  • VadimusesVadimuses Member Posts: 1,128 @ - Epic Achaean
    Fluids got deleted, humours instead now have levels. I'm nearly done with the Alchemist update.

    You certainly don't want to let them get aff momentum on you, or build up too many humour levels. Ouch.

  • IllideusIllideus St. Louis, MOMember Posts: 4

    I was honestly hoping for some cool switcheroo mobility added to help with running targets or general long distance type of teleporting with the homunculus(still switcheroo like)
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,287 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    > @Vadimuses said:
    > Fluids got deleted, humours instead now have levels. I'm nearly done with the Alchemist update.
    >
    >
    > You certainly don't want to let them get aff momentum on you, or build up too many humour levels. Ouch.

    Vadi, is there a direct line input to switch herb salve et prios other than the vshow menu you can click up and down?

    Wrong thread but useful against alchemist to prior ginger and move it back down against others.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • VadimusesVadimuses Member Posts: 1,128 @ - Epic Achaean

    Yeah, you can use an alias or a function. Priorities section explains it all. You can also create whole pre-made lists and just swap them.

    Atalkez
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