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Tank Changes

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  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    percentage-wise if anyone's gaming the enlistment system, it's Ashtan.  We don't get raided, so we don't get to exploit it though :(

    mechanics-wise...well..we all know who's gaming the system (not purposefully, I'll add) but that'll be fixed by Jarrod's enlistment benefit suggestions.

    Vote for Jarrod 
    :)>-
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  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,233 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod for Overseer.


    JhuiKyrraEchaldSilas
  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,541 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Szareine said:
    Oh! I forgot about that. :-$ Is it a lot of experience? :ar!
    Being in-room when a tank is disarmed is the same experience as when you're in-room when a tank is exploded.  That is to say, it is a whole lot, and it is so worth it.
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2014
    A couple thoughts regarding tanks:

    1) If font's going to raise constantly, with the defending army doing literally nothing, let the tank raise slowly, with the raiders doing nothing (other than, obviously, defending it).  Stalemates are the death of fun, in raids.  Sitting there for 20 minutes watching font going up is the opposite of fun.

    and/or:

    2)  Font stacks should lower under a lot of conditions, to possibly include death (cut it in half?), winning/losing the raid, possible NPC or quest which allows you to lower it.  I also completely agree that they need a cap, but I am pretty sure this is already in the works.

    and/or

    3)  Font damage shouldn't affect non-guard NPC damage.  Being crippled for an hour after a raid, waiting for font to decay so DKs aren't doing 4000 damage per slash is counter-intuitive.  It makes me both not want to raid, and prevents me from doing something else.
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 626 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2014
    Accipiter said:
    My point was that the reward/punishment in the system is tilted towards the aggressors. Aggressors get rewarded for destroying a room, the defenders get punished for it. It has to be that way to encourage people to raid, but the defenders need to have a mechanical advantage because there is no mechanical reward for them defending, just an punishment for them not. Saying it isn't fun is fine, saying it isn't even isn't unless you are also proposing that the agressors get mechanically punished for failing the attack the same way defenders are mechanically punished for failing the defense.

    I thought defenders get exp?  (or is that just the 80% of Targ defenders that refuse to join military?  <- not sarcasm )
    "Ignore the boos.  They usually come from the cheap seats."
  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,538 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    Shecks said:

    I thought defenders get exp?  (or is that just the 80% of Targ defenders that refuse to join military?  <- not sarcasm )
    Apparently you didn't read anything above, Makarios already pointed out that Targossas has the HIGHEST rate of enrollment of non-novices.  Pretty much everyone in Targossas (but a handful of non-coms who mostly can't because of OOC reasons) defends.

    Defenders get xp per kill as if it was outside the city.  Raiders get xp from the first (6?) kills to get the sanction raid, thereafter they only get xp from killing marks.

    Adjusting the font/capping the damage modifier could work.  Defenders should always have an advantage of some sort since they are on their home turf, raiders have the advantage since they pick when the conflict happens.  

    Personally when I have to lead a raid defense it takes time to get everyone into the same party, get an accurate enemy list, add potential people earringing into the battle and sometimes you just have to wait for more people to log in to put up a realistic fight.

    The entire purpose of this new system was counter people raiding empty cities during off-hours (hi Mhaldor).
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  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achilles said:
    Personally when I have to lead a raid defense it takes time to get everyone into the same party, get an accurate enemy list, add potential people earringing into the battle and sometimes you just have to wait for more people to log in to put up a realistic fight.

    That sounds very un-fun.  The above is why no one wants to fight as a Targ or with Targ.  

    Conflict is as fun as you make it.

    Let me elaborate, stay with me:

    Snagging the few people around you and rushing immediately is sub-optimal in most cases.  Yes. But it's fun as hell and there's always a good shot at winning while the raiders are setting up.  If you lose, who the fuck cares.  It's more fun to rush immediately than to draw out a plan and have that fail.

    Incoming argument:  "We don't have earrings and veils like you guys do."  I agree that makes us better at insta-rushing, but does not refute the fact that it is more fun to quickly rush.  You won't be good at this initially, but once your team gets used to it, they'll be aware of how to get to the raiding group and help out quickly.  They'll also learn to be ready to rumble immediately, like we are.

    As it stands right now, I can CT raiders in, then say the room name, walk to them immediately and I expect a lot of Ashtan to show up (not just my earring buddies, but they'll show up too of course).  Sure, we might lose because we went in head first, but at least it was fun.  We'll regather after we pray or bail and actually group up.

    Your mindset comes off as: "Let me think of all the way I could potentially lose a fight if I don't take the proper precautions and setup."

    It should be: "Fuck it, let's rush these fuckers because it sounds fun.  We'll probably lose, but as long as my side knows this is how we operate, no one will care."

    Note:  You ink like 5 bursts so you obviously don't care about dying, I won't refute that.  But you do obviously care a lot about losing.  Change your mindset and other people will change theirs.
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    DunnSothantosWynederePenwize
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    While Makarios is obviously pulling real data, in practice a sizable portion of the defense group in Targ is usually not a soldier. We sit there and check people when we're waiting for a rush.

    I agree that the mechanics should be stacked in favor of the defenders, I just think they should be limited and not built up, so there is no encouragement to delay beyond what already exists (such as Achilles said, when you're organizing/etc). A mechanic like further increasing guard damage could work to prevent -meaningful- empty city raids, though it's obviously not the only possibility, just the first thing I thought of that would intersect long duration raids that have the possibility to target high-value rooms with minimal defenders.

    As for empty city raids in general, they exist and will always exist, it's up to the raid leaders to check both sides if you're actually interested in fights. Sometimes this can't be helped, such as Divine ordered raids, but often times it can be, but isn't. On this note, while I think empty city raids are always lame, I think there are times where the benefit of being lame to the citizenry can outweigh it for the raiding city. If morale is low and you need a win, it's much less inspiring to beat an empty city, but any sort of win can help lift spirits. Again, it's still lame, but it can be worth it to just accept that and do it anyways if times are rough.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,538 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Jhui - Wrong about me caring about losing, wouldn't roll Targ or Shallam if that was the case as it was a hot mess for years.  But even getting a few people to follow and then finding where you guys are takes too long. 
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  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achilles said:
    @Jhui - Wrong about me caring about losing, wouldn't roll Targ or Shallam if that was the case as it was a hot mess for years.  But even getting a few people to follow and then finding where you guys are takes too long. 
    takes too long now, you'll get better at it if you actually do it, trust me.
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  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,233 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just spam the hell out of PT and leave people that are slow.

    They learn to follow quickly if they want to fight.


    Jhui
  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    Yeah, anyone claiming that Targ is gaming enlistment is full of crap.

    No, not every citizen of our city is a soldier, but not every citizen of our city needs to be.  There's a couple people on the borderline that could either be soldiers or not be, but we generally have all of our competent defenders/raiders as soldiers. Our policy is that we enlist people if they are a competent and regular defender. We only say no to enlisting someone if they either rarely participate in combat or we don't have faith in their level of competency yet. As for the borderline people that probably should be enlisted that defend regularly, I can tell you that in a number of those cases, it's the personal players electing to not be in the army - It's not Targossas telling them they can't be. We don't -require- people join the army, so if someone wants to quit from it or never ask to join, that's their deal. Some of our people are strictly "at home defenders" so they're not necessarily going to always be conscripts in our army.

    We used to raid Ashtan pretty regularly and there's definitely a ton of Ashtani that aren't enlisted either, some of which defend, some of which sit there displacing from gates all raid, etc. Overall, I think Targossas is being as fair with enlisting as we can be without putting ourselves at a noted disadvantage. It's not really our job to enlist every piece of radiance-bait in our city.

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    Havyn
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Santar said:
    Overall, I think Targossas is being as fair with enlisting as we can be without putting ourselves at a noted disadvantage. It's not really our job to enlist every piece of radiance-bait in our city.
    Uh that right there is gaming the system honestly, sure I wouldn't enlist an 18 year old unranked person, but if they ask I just say sure, follow up and lets get you conscripted. 

    Targ telling people who don't fit in the fresh out of Minia category that they can't be a part of their army because it makes Targ weaker and more likely to lose...how do you keep those people at all? I wouldn't be very encouraged at all, then you go and require me to defend Targossas?

    The difference is Ashtani aren't required to defend, so those that sometimes do and aren't soldiers just think it's fun to try to displace but aren't going to be doing it on a regular basis. I'm sure if you asked them why they aren't soldiers they would go get conscripted.
    WynedereJacen
  • SothantosSothantos Member Posts: 460 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2014
    Nemutaur said:
    Santar said:
    Overall, I think Targossas is being as fair with enlisting as we can be without putting ourselves at a noted disadvantage. It's not really our job to enlist every piece of radiance-bait in our city.
    The difference is Ashtani aren't required to defend, so those that sometimes do and aren't soldiers just think it's fun to try to displace but aren't going to be doing it on a regular basis. I'm sure if you asked them why they aren't soldiers they would go get conscripted.
    Well, go on, ask them, then.

    The same non-soldiers were defending in multiple raids we raided with. Still not soldiers. You can demand that only defenders exclusively defend, but you weren't exactly setting an example here.

    Honestly, considering that Targossas's unenlisted people barely qualify as combatants, I'm wondering why it's such a big deal, though I'm not opposed to Jarrod's suggestions on non-soldiers not receiving sanction benefits.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reading comments from various Targossians in this thread you'd think Ashtan never lost a single member in any skirmish in the past RL year.

    Seriously you guys play the victim card so much. You've never really tried unplanned rushes, based on experience raiding you guys, quit acting like you've already lost in every situation ever.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    You're all full of shit. Targossas has more non-combatants that participate in defense/raiding than any other city by far. You're trying to judge Targossas as if it should behave in the same way Ashtan does when the player bases are nothing alike. Yes, it's easy to just run in/fight/attack when you have 8-9 people that are all artied and know what they're doing. You expect us to do that when 90% of our group is composed of tiny non-combatants that have no idea what they're doing?

    I'm honestly not sure what all the Ashtani bitching is about. Are you not winning by enough? Is your city not stacked with enough artied combatants already? Clearly Targossas should just run in and die repeatedly to Ashtan all day with no thought as to winning. That's what you want? Everytime Ashtan loses a fight all I hear is this constant whining about how we don't play fair. Now, to top it all off, you want us to start enlisting more clueless non-combatants for you to radiance/feed off of? Sorry?

    I know what it's like to play on your side. I teamed with Poergh/Trance/etc for RL years in griefing Shallam and Cyrene non stop. Yes, when you have a group of like-minded individuals that all take care of themselves, it's fun to just run in and fight and see if you win. It doesn't work like that when you're dealing with people that aren't hardened combatants. Ashtan needs to grow up and stop expecting everyone to play every fight on their terms, and to stop acting like they're the only ones who get a say in the balance of Achaea.

    Another thing is the constant whining about the numbers. You'll fight with like 8 people that are the same strength as me and Sothantos, then we defend with 2 people of that caliber and like 10 non-combatants, and you want to cry about numbers. Everyone knows that numbers doesn't mean a damn thing in Achaea - It's the strength of the individual people. I can 1v3 party spar various conscripted soldiers from my city and win. I know for a fact Jhui, Nemutaur, or others from Ashtan could easily do the same to these people that we use to defend, so stop throwing a fit everytime we come with more people than you do.

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    DunnEchaldJhuiHalos
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Santar said:
    I'm honestly not sure what all the Ashtani bitching is about. Are you not winning by enough? Is your city not stacked with enough artied combatants already? Clearly Targossas should just run in and die repeatedly to Ashtan all day with no thought as to winning. That's what you want? Everytime Ashtan loses a fight all I hear is this constant whining about how we don't play fair. Now, to top it all off, you want us to start enlisting more clueless non-combatants for you to radiance/feed off of? Sorry?
    I don't think I could have written a paragraph better suited to emphasize my point, thanks.
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    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    WynedereJhui
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I feel like my point is being misinterpreted.

    Everything Achilles, Santar, Soth has said is nearly 100% correct.  The problem is, you're playing the victim card instead of doing something about it.  I'm just offering a suggestion to help people have more fun on your side.  It might work, it might not, but it's better than being in the perpetual self-created hole you've dug yourselves in to.
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    JovoloWynedereShirszae
This discussion has been closed.