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Alchemist combat.

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  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    They're right, Inundate adds 350 bleeding. Period.

    It's primarily the sanguine humour.
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  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    With 4k mana, assuming constant mana sipping and moss (no sip bonuses or mana regen) against an opponent doing nothing but inundating sanguine with a salt homunculus, you can keep your bleeding at 0 (clot down to 0 on every inundate and homunculus hit) for about 16 seconds before you run out of mana. Because you don't die at that point, the bleeding just starts to build up, that should give enough time for your fluids to return to normal if you're constantly eating ginger, since the alchemist isn't tempering (can either inundate or temper, not both).

    And that's just 4k mana. With artefacts or high enough mana, you can actually gain mana faster than you spend it, no matter how much you're clotting.

    This is very simplified, and ignores other attacks/hindering on both sides, but it does show that the bleeding can be manageable on its own, without corruption (I'm not sure what the best way to deal with corruption is, or how much of a difference it actually makes), as long as you aren't also forced to use focus or prioritise health over mana.
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2014
    Corruption -properly managed- isn't as useful against a lot of people, as many sip more health than mana. That said, most of those people don't handle it properly. I'm still learning, granted, but the best use of it I've found is to throw someone off, or to mess with people who have (and thus sip) more mana than health.
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  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    I always thought corruption was like the "last step" towards aurify, bringing bleeding into mana while educe-wracking to make it happen.
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    I always thought corruption was like the "last step" towards aurify, bringing bleeding into mana while educe-wracking to make it happen.
    Kind of? A smart player will see what just happened and cut their clotting down. Can't die from lack of mana, after all. Of course, when Corruption wears off, it'll roll over, but hey, you'll have avoided the sudden burst of damage caused by clotting! There's ways to mitigate it, but yeah, it's not the end-all, be-all of Aurify. Regular bleeding is a lot more threatening for Aurify, because you -can- die from bleeding out, and therefore, it's more justifiable to spend mana for clotting in the hopes that you'll get away before the alchemist in question aurifies. Really, it's used more as something to get a temporary advantage in the hopes of knocking them down.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,180 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you don't clot against corruption the exact thing that will happen is your mana being eaten away by the ridiculous constant increase in bleed? Then when it wears off, you have next to no mana and you're bleeding for 2,000+ because you didn't clot for 30 seconds. That's a good way to get yourself aurified.

    Even if you do clot while corrupted, all you do is bring your health down to the point where you have to spam clot to not die and suddenly you have no health from clotting while corrupted and you have to eat straight into a massive chunk of your mana to survive the corruption wear off. A good way to aurify.
    Hellen
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,337 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You can't die from lack of mana itself, but it sure makes surviving substantially harder. Lack of mana means lack of any mental ways of healing (restore/clot/focus?) as well as the reapplying of defences. To be honest all you need is a priest to walk in the room and decide to 'help' and it doesn't matter if they are keeping on top of their health to stop aurification.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What I am hearing thus far is that people seem upset that a class heavily based on momentum is extremely strong when given the opportunity to utilize that momentum properly. From what I know of Alchemist combat (admittedly little, bear with me), this will take upwards of 40s-1min to achieve without any interruptions. That is a fairly long prep time and with a consistent way to evade torso blocking, many classes will be able to stall an Alchemist in their tracks with little problem at all.

    I don't really see the issue. It's a good thing that their end offense is so strong and difficult to counter.
    Hellen
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Daeir said:
    What I am hearing thus far is that people seem upset that a class heavily based on momentum is extremely strong when given the opportunity to utilize that momentum properly. From what I know of Alchemist combat (admittedly little, bear with me), this will take upwards of 40s-1min to achieve without any interruptions. That is a fairly long prep time and with a consistent way to evade torso blocking, many classes will be able to stall an Alchemist in their tracks with little problem at all.

    I don't really see the issue. It's a good thing that their end offense is so strong and difficult to counter.
    And there are plenty of ways to get out of the room, an alchemist have to get more creative to keep them in.
    image
    Alcinae
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,180 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:

    What I am hearing thus far is that people seem upset that a class heavily based on momentum is extremely strong when given the opportunity to utilize that momentum properly. From what I know of Alchemist combat (admittedly little, bear with me), this will take upwards of 40s-1min to achieve without any interruptions. That is a fairly long prep time and with a consistent way to evade torso blocking, many classes will be able to stall an Alchemist in their tracks with little problem at all.

    I don't really see the issue. It's a good thing that their end offense is so strong and difficult to counter.

    Consistent way of avoiding alchemist block for all classes?
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not all classes are equally mobile but there are a variety of ways to get out of the room that virtually covers every class, some being more situational or  effective in any given event.

    Tumble is a slow yet available to anyone who invest the lessons in survival in addition to the following other skills off the top of my head which are available to various class/races:
    Leap
    Evade
    Flying(Any race with wings/person with flying mount./artefact)
    Universe Tarot
    Earrings
    Wings
    Warping
    Portals
    Ether Channel
    Pierce the Veil
    Digging
    Swinging
    image
  • AduanAduan Member Posts: 40 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 2014
    Well the creativeness is a little hampered by the slow recovery speeds on wrack and educing. Which means reacting to someone beginning to tumble is tricky (and impossible if they time well). The net result is, you can easily run from an alchemist, but at the same time you have to, otherwise fluid builds up. 
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,180 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Humourism is on its own balance and you don't need to educe when they start a tumble? You can just wait to brazier;temper or follow;temper. Tumble isn't a good solution. 

    What's the ability available to all (or the majority of) classes that escapes homunculus block(torso)? @Daeir


    A lot of those are just abilities to leave a room in various ways that don't bypass homunculus block or are very specific to a couple of classes. I wouldn't exactly cite earrings as one either, unless you simply mean escaping a gank - who fights someone that evades room hindering abilities in a duel by using earrings?

    Alchemist's main weakness mechanically is the disparity between their initial startup and full momentum offences. It's just boring! Truewrack in conjuction with the passive tempered humours effects are really awesome, and it's a shame that the speed of it is completely and so largely tied in with fluid level of the opponent. Sanguine is a pain in the ass, but I'm not convinced it's a huge problem because of my lack of experience with it. I just noticed that even pre-clotting and hindering the alchemist, my bleeding got up to 2,000 within a couple of minutes. There are momentum classes that require a longer time than the supposed "ridiculous" length it takes to build up Alchemist momentum, and fighting with that in mind is horrible.


  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    By the by, note Vitrification and Phlogistication take effect when you use bal/eq - I've fought quite a few that just make things worse on themselves at a bad spot by triggering them a lot.
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  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    What I am hearing thus far is that people seem upset that a class heavily based on momentum is extremely strong when given the opportunity to utilize that momentum properly. From what I know of Alchemist combat (admittedly little, bear with me), this will take upwards of 40s-1min to achieve without any interruptions. That is a fairly long prep time and with a consistent way to evade torso blocking, many classes will be able to stall an Alchemist in their tracks with little problem at all.

    I don't really see the issue. It's a good thing that their end offense is so strong and difficult to counter.
    Consistent way of avoiding alchemist block for all classes?
    kill homunculus
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Kafziel said:
    Jovolo said:
    What I am hearing thus far is that people seem upset that a class heavily based on momentum is extremely strong when given the opportunity to utilize that momentum properly. From what I know of Alchemist combat (admittedly little, bear with me), this will take upwards of 40s-1min to achieve without any interruptions. That is a fairly long prep time and with a consistent way to evade torso blocking, many classes will be able to stall an Alchemist in their tracks with little problem at all.

    I don't really see the issue. It's a good thing that their end offense is so strong and difficult to counter.
    Consistent way of avoiding alchemist block for all classes?
    kill homunculus
    Have you tried to do that? Lil guys are beasts.
    image
    Trevize
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Kafziel said:
    Jovolo said:
    What I am hearing thus far is that people seem upset that a class heavily based on momentum is extremely strong when given the opportunity to utilize that momentum properly. From what I know of Alchemist combat (admittedly little, bear with me), this will take upwards of 40s-1min to achieve without any interruptions. That is a fairly long prep time and with a consistent way to evade torso blocking, many classes will be able to stall an Alchemist in their tracks with little problem at all.

    I don't really see the issue. It's a good thing that their end offense is so strong and difficult to counter.
    Consistent way of avoiding alchemist block for all classes?
    kill homunculus
    Kill alchemist.
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  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Vayne said:Have you tried to do that? Lil guys are beasts.
    I have
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaMember Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    STOP MAKING ME WANT AN ALCHEMIST.


    :<<<<<<<<<<






    But please continue. This thread is fascinating.

    Viva la Bluef.
  • DjiDji Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jovolo said:
    Humourism is on its own balance and you don't need to educe when they start a tumble? You can just wait to brazier;temper or follow;temper. Tumble isn't a good solution. 

    What's the ability available to all (or the majority of) classes that escapes homunculus block(torso)? @Daeir

    The humourism balance requires eq/balance. So you can't do anything that takes those before using it. I'm also not really convinced there should be a -consistent- way to escape Torso. If there was, what would be the point of it as a blocking ability? It needs to at least have a chance to do it's job.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,180 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not saying there is or should be, juat that I'm not aware of one and so far haven't been told otherwise despite claims to the contrary.

    @Daeir
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tumble is a good start, as is mountjump (available to all classes). Vayne pretty much listed most of them.

    Torso is strong, but it's not unstoppable.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,180 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    The alchemist can follow tumble (and tumble throws you off balance for 5 seconds) and mountjump is functionally leap with a mount i.e. it gets blocked. Not exactly good ways of evading it.

    time to play my Alchemist alt I guess.
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaMember Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    The alchemist can follow tumble (and tumble throws you off balance for 5 seconds) and mountjump is functionally leap with a mount i.e. it gets blocked. Not exactly good ways of evading it.

    time to play my Alchemist alt I guess.
    I'm barely active, and I have zero Achaean combat experience, but from what I've seen on the forums, it sounds like Alchemists really are having trouble killing people before they're killed themselves, or that people are able to get away with ease.

    Do you really have such trouble? If so, perhaps it's crazy RNG, or Alchemists don't have it as bad as it would seem.

    Viva la Bluef.
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    May just be there are 0 alchemist combatants
    Jovolo
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't know much about alchemists, but homunculi blocking movement IS a huge pain in the ass. No exaggeration there, that stuff's crazy :(
  • DjiDji Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Honestly, the thing that really gets me about Alchemist combat so far is that their abilities are -magical-. I wanna be injecting people with venom and throwing acidic concoctions at them. Not giving them a case of water retention by staring at them.

    Being a mad scientist is so much cooler than being a periodic table magician imo. :/
    DaeirAradorDomanic
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Agreed. Class tutor should be Kortoxian, and they should kill people by giving them gleam withdrawal symptoms.
  • DjiDji Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Anedhel said:
    Agreed. Class tutor should be Kortoxian, and they should kill people by giving them gleam withdrawal symptoms.
    I shall make the purest, blue gleam.
    Domanic
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There's still no 'I love you so much right now' button, what the hell D:
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