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CFSocalypse: Electric Boogaloo

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  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    @Tydas lessons for gold would be AMAZING. 1000/lesson would help everyone in the realm, really. that's 6 lessons for 6k. Could even go upwards of 1500/lesson which hits about 9k.

    However, not being able to trade them to friends would be annoying. I like giving gifts!
    PuxiAereidhnaCaelan
  • PuxiPuxi Member Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I agree with most of what @Tydas said, (love the buying lessons idea), but the one thing I don't agree with is IRE losing money on credit sales. I know this falls under some kind of fallacy rule, but can't recall what it is.

    You are assuming people would have spent the same amount of money on credits regardless if there were a sale or not, forgetting the credit sale actually drives buying behavior because of the additional value gained. The adverse effects of a credit sale is obviously this CFS fustercluck, but those types of things don't reflect on their P&L which is probably why it hasn't been addressed more quickly.
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Well one way would be switching how arties work. Rather than making some weapons/armour non-decay, its an essence that goes into the forging or some item like a whetstone that enhances the regular weapon. This obviously would be a major change and likely require a fair bit of coding but it prevents those with arties from opting out of a gold drain others have.
  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Speaking as someone with the ability (but only sometimes the will) to generate and stockpile silly amounts of gold that also doesn't spend much irl money on credits in the last couple of years: I'd absolutely love gold to lessons conversion. I'd like to pick up more classes and I'm not going to spend my rl $$ on it, I'd simply rather do without. I'm sure there are people like me that wouldn't be spending real money either way so there's no loss of income but who constantly drive the credit market up by buying them with gold 
    ZahanMelodie
  • TydasTydas Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Senoske said:
    @Tydas lessons for gold would be AMAZING. 1000/lesson would help everyone in the realm, really. that's 6 lessons for 6k. Could even go upwards of 1500/lesson which hits about 9k.

    However, not being able to trade them to friends would be annoying. I like giving gifts!
    My response is, give them the gold amount of however many credits you'd give them instead. The liquidity of credits is a problem: people want to trade stuff for credits, because they feel somehow credit exchanges are safer. Probably because IRE takes credit scams seriously, and they feel gold scams are easier to pull off (they aren't, but people feel that way, and confidence in the security of a transaction alone makes credits more valuable). Gold circulation goes down while credits get another use: bartering. My previous post was all about how the usefulness of credits is a bad thing, and I think this may be part of it. If you can't think of credits as a bartering chip for in game goods, then suddenly it's not as useful, not as desirable, and so you'd prefer to keep your gold for those large in-game purchases instead of buying credits off the market and driving the price up. Maybe the person you buy from will end up spending all that gold on the credit market anyway, but maybe not. Maybe only a part of it. Maybe they want to spend it on lessons instead.

    I feel gold as a currency would benefit a lot more if we didn't base so many transactions around credits, and that the price of credits would benefit as well. It'd be a tough change for a lot of people, and I know there'd be a ton of bitching on the forums about it. Then I remember the backlash over autoclass, and it doesn't seem that bad.

    Puxi said:
    I agree with most of what @Tydas said, (love the buying lessons idea), but the one thing I don't agree with is IRE losing money on credit sales. I know this falls under some kind of fallacy rule, but can't recall what it is.

    You are assuming people would have spent the same amount of money on credits regardless if there were a sale or not, forgetting the credit sale actually drives buying behavior because of the additional value gained. The adverse effects of a credit sale is obviously this CFS fustercluck, but those types of things don't reflect on their P&L which is probably why it hasn't been addressed more quickly.
    Oh, I didn't mean credit sales would be a problem, I know that sales lead people to spending more than they would without a sale (I'm guilty of that myself). I meant more, dropping the price of credits permanently by some amount, in order to increase long-term availability of credits in-game. Reducing the scarcity by permanently reducing the cost. That's what I think would be bad in the long run for IRE. But I could be wrong about that too - maybe dropping the price of every package by 5 cents per credit would actually lead to a lot more purchases. I couldn't say, given what I know right now.
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,054 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2016
    I feel like doing as something as simple as taking direct player-to-player credit transactions away as an option and forcing people to make transactions only in gold might make a dent on the prices. It is not a gold sink, but gold that moves rather than sits at the bottom of someone's pack will inevitably find its way into one sink or another.

    Having said that, we've kinda done the round robin on what to do about credit prices for a very long time. Invariably people arrive at the same suggested solutions none of which seem viable to management. After all anything that hurts the bottomline isn't likely to be considered.



  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lessons for gold. Nuff said.
    Huh. Neat.
    Caelan
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,297 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lessons could be tied to average credit price, offering a discount for using gold instead of buying credits off market.

    Aerek was pretty spot on with what he said, though.

    I have a very large amount of gold. I want to turn that gold into credits to buy artefacts. To make me use the gold on something else would require that something else to be really, really cool and really, really useful, and be more worth it to me than other things I can currently buy. There are very few things they could implement that would be balanced that would entice me to do that.

    Achaea is in a hard spot when it comes to the credit market right now. It's fairly obvious they can never return to straight credit promotions - at least, in the current '30% maximum' bonus form.

    We've been on the slippery slope of the promotions being worth more than the 30% bonus - some of them being the equivalent of 70 or 80% bonus, and the people with enough credits already utilizing the promotions to see a 100-200% bonus on their credits compared to what they would have gotten buying from a credit sale.

    I've thought a long time on how this can be fixed, and have pretty much come up with nothing that would work long term. It's a very tough problem.

    Aereidhna
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,871 Achaean staff
    That's pretty much spot on - a gold sink worth more to players than credits is a very tough problem to solve.
  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Makarios said:
    That's pretty much spot on - a gold sink worth more to players than credits is a very tough problem to solve.
    Shorten the decay on everything. Take any item that can be an artifact and transform that into something akin to an enchantment. Example. Thoths fang isn't an Artie dirk it's an enchantment that goes onto a dirk to get the same effect as a thoths fang. Maybe extends the decay time or something. There is nothing in the game you can not do this to. Vials armor weapons stat increases nothing. Worried about customization? Applying the enchantment turns that item to what people paid for. Now all crafting professions are useful for everyone again. You just made a game wide gold sink. Does it fix the problem? Not entirely. But as a suggestion/example that the administration can simply use what they already have to address the issue. I really don't think it's that hard to find simple solutions to complicated problems. 

    First st idea is free. After that I start charging. XD
    Cooper said:
    This is one of the worst forms of special snowflake RP I've ever seen. Thanks for going to another city to do it!
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    Pretty sure they've already said no at least a thousand times to the "lessons for gold" idea.
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2016
    What if there was a special weekly worldwide creditsale at competitive prices but they were bound credits only.

    Basically once a week admins put up like 2000 credits at <market rate, but they're bound cr.

    It wouldn't be admins interfering in free market rate because they'd just be selling at a rate slightly adjusted to be competitive with the free market, and you wouldn't be able to resell them.

    Also if people hung onto their gold to buy from this weekly creditsale instead of the free market, the supply of credits on the free market would increase over time.

    I teach economics at Harvard, trust me on this.

  • AlaskarAlaskar Member Posts: 393 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It's likely been mentioned and rejected before, but I think temporary boosts for gold would be a good sink and, if done correctly, could actually entice people to purchase credits to sell for gold (in cases where they may not be willing to invest large amounts). Small or big, whether it's increased movement, increased will or endurance regen, health regen, increased health, increased denizen damage, etc. Such boosts could even include drawbacks in PvE and PvP, like increased damage to certain types, slower herb balance, reduced gold from denizens, etc. Like a boost that increases damage to denizens, but increases damage received and reduces gold drops. Or another that increases equilibrium but also lengthens cure balances (so it may be great in PvE, but cripple your PvP). 

    Off the top of my head, double health for halved mana and increased mana costs, faster EQ for slower balance and increased mana costs, greater denizen damage for a reduction in gold drops and increase in damage taken. Temporary access to other class's rage abilities but at reduced rage gain, etc. They could be 1 minute, 2 minute, or 2 hour boosts, who knows? The possibilities are endless, it's just a matter of finding a way to create something that requires non-trivial amounts of gold for moderate benefits while ensuring that the item can't be used for further gold generation. Costs could cover a large range, and certain boosts could even be limited by level, for more powerful effects that are not available to guys already wracking in humongous amounts of gold and arties. Those little boosts may even eventually entice people to just spend 10 bucks here and there on credits to sell specifically for gold.

    Combat balance is the obvious negative to this idea, but I don't see a big difference compared to rare minerals, which I don't think have become the norm for PvP, and the careful application of negative consequences to any benefits offered, as well as level scaling and other limitations, could, in my opinion, be used to balance temporary boosts. As for bottom line for IRE, I don't think encouraging microtransactions is bad so long as it doesn't take away from the benefits of making larger transactions. There's likely a large number of people who will never spend large amounts of money on the game, but who may think, "Oh, $5.00 for 10 credits, which I can sell for 50-60K and get this sweet mineral that gives me a <insert effect> for an hour is pretty convenient!" The big spenders, or people who decide they need lessons and arties would still need credits. 

    I don't think we'll ever get gold for lessons, because it places a set price on credits (even if an argument is made for the added usefulness of credits, I think people would still be unwilling to buy them for much higher than their lesson/gold worth)

    Longer than I intended. Basically, gold for temporary benefits, scaled in cost and effectiveness/duration according to level or use, with various benefits and side effects, which are sold by denizen shops, and which are carefully balanced to produce a negative return on gold.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,374 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2016
    "Rentable Relics"

    What if we had a set of one-of-a-kind items (relics or a set akin to relics) that could be fought over with gold instead of swords?
    How it would play out is you can go to Delos and propose a bid on an item. If your bid is the current highest you receive the item (with no open PK on yourself) and can use it, being charged your bid on a IG daily basis. Your bid and name will be recorded at the Delos shopfront for these items. When you are done you can relinqish the item back at the shopfront and go about your business. HOWEVER, if you are still using the relic and someone places a higher bid at the shop, you lose the relic and it goes to the next person. 

    This is how I see it playing out:
    1) I decide I would like to hunt using a relic.

    2) I go to the Delos shopfront and see Aerek is using the relic I want with a bid of 5,000g per day

    3) I place a bid of 10,000g per day on the item and receive it. My bank account is deducted 10,000g (Yes, you will need to have a bank account unfortunately).

    4) I get the relic. Aerek loses it.

    5) I get to use the relic for a time, or Aerek decides he wants it back and he goes and places a higher bid for it. Small bidding war takes place. I end up victorious with a bid of 20,000g.

    6) I use the item, paying 20,000g per day it is in my possession until I relinquish it, am outbid, log off etc.

    There would have to be a few rules involved. Things like if you log out, the item resets to the Delos shopfront, if you go into a subdivision, house or ship, the item resets to Delos. If you have insufficient funds in your bank account the item resets. There is the potential for a fast back and forth, each person draining their bank quickly, but that will hopefully factor into the amount of money you bid on an item, cheap enough to be effective but high enough noone is going to walk in and snatch it out from your hands without some thought.

    Items can be things similiar to Lifegiver, Golden Braid, Soulfire Crucible, Death cloak etc. Things that are extremely attractive to the playerbase and provide a strategic benefit in raids or hunting, but not so common that every dog and his cat has it and they sit gathering dust in the shop or being rented out for 1g a day.
    Vender
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,054 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Does the price/bidding default every week or something?


  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,374 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nope. If you can afford to pay an amount exorbitant amount noone can top for a whole week, can stay logged in, out of ships and houses you are probably one of the people who needs to have their bank accounts drained a little.  
  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Ryzeth said:
    Pretty sure they've already said no at least a thousand times to the "lessons for gold" idea.
    Different producers have, sure.
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    It did occur to me, the other way to add a gold drain to arties is to have their stats shift back to the default unless enhanced via a gold means (a whetstone or other item made via forging). Just throwing that out there. This still keeps it as a non-decay armour/weapon.
  • YenYen Member Posts: 65 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    There could be more use of auctions to drain gold.  Like, instead of having all the high-end items be sold for bound credits, sell them for gold instead (Chenubian wings for 100 million, anyone?).
    Aereidhna
  • KyrraKyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,861 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd love it if there were more gold auctions. They're the ones I generally never paid much attention to but I did get my bagpipes from one and they worked out to just slightly cheaper than the cost of buying a new lyre at the time.

    I'd really love if there was denizen shops that sold more items to do with housing, instead of having to be around for a bazaar when they randomly happen. Last Logosmas I paid a fair bit to have a painting and statue made through customisations for my house as presents for Jhui, and it'd be nifty if there was a lot more options available for ambient furniture. I'd love to have landscape paintings throughout all the hallways of my house but I don't want to customise everything, and the lady that sells paintings in Caer Witrin seems to cycle through the same stuff unless that's recently changed.

    I would pay a lot of gold to be able to stable my minipets at my city stables while slowly getting the 160 room credits I need to put a stable and gate in an out of subs house that only I can use. I don't like carrying them around with me and I dump them in random places so they don't drop out of my inventory if I die while defending. In fact, I think a lot of people would have to have this option. Maybe the cost of stables/gates could be reduced in price for player housing? If it's a lot more affordable, I'm sure a lot of people would be using it and it'd help with that issue. @Makarios

    Put mining commodities back in denizen villages. All of the village shops still exist, and I much preferred buying from denizens which threw my gold down the drain than I did from cities (usually because I'd have to restock what I bought anyways). I've personally no interest in mining myself and the commodities market is just trading between players for the most part.

    It would be sooooo awesome to be able to rent artifacts for gold. Even if it's just for an hour for some exuberant fee. I know it's not likely to happen because it could reduce people outright buying artifacts and making credit purchases, but I know that when I'm on my unartied alts, I'd kill for a boost while hunting at times, without having to beg to borrow artifacts from another player. 

    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    SenoskeAereidhna
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,926 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Driden said:
    Makarios said:
    That's pretty much spot on - a gold sink worth more to players than credits is a very tough problem to solve.
    Take any item that can be an artifact and transform that into something akin to an enchantment. Example. Thoths fang isn't an Artie dirk it's an enchantment that goes onto a dirk to get the same effect as a thoths fang. Maybe extends the decay time or something. There is nothing in the game you can not do this to. Vials armor weapons stat increases nothing.
    This would be effective at annoying people who don't like dealing with annoying upkeep on items decaying (and are therefore willing to spend credits to remove that aspect of the game), and ineffective at actually solving the problem, since forging an item doesn't cost much gold at all. The base commodities for most forged items cost less than 1000 gold, and almost all armours except fieldplate and fullplate can generally be forged for about 2000 gold.

    Right now it's entirely possible to become self-sufficient by learning every tradeskill. The main reason people don't do that is because it's expensive, and it's cheaper to just buy what you need from other people. If it stops being cheaper to just buy from other players people with the means will likely just end up learning all of the tradeskills, completely destroying the market.
    Tahquil said:
    "Rentable Relics"

    What if we had a set of one-of-a-kind items (relics or a set akin to relics) that could be fought over with gold instead of swords?
    How it would play out is you can go to Delos and propose a bid on an item. If your bid is the current highest you receive the item (with no open PK on yourself) and can use it, being charged your bid on a IG daily basis. Your bid and name will be recorded at the Delos shopfront for these items. When you are done you can relinqish the item back at the shopfront and go about your business. HOWEVER, if you are still using the relic and someone places a higher bid at the shop, you lose the relic and it goes to the next person. 

    This is how I see it playing out:
    1) I decide I would like to hunt using a relic.

    2) I go to the Delos shopfront and see Aerek is using the relic I want with a bid of 5,000g per day

    3) I place a bid of 10,000g per day on the item and receive it. My bank account is deducted 10,000g (Yes, you will need to have a bank account unfortunately).

    4) I get the relic. Aerek loses it.

    5) I get to use the relic for a time, or Aerek decides he wants it back and he goes and places a higher bid for it. Small bidding war takes place. I end up victorious with a bid of 20,000g.

    6) I use the item, paying 20,000g per day it is in my possession until I relinquish it, am outbid, log off etc.

    There would have to be a few rules involved. Things like if you log out, the item resets to the Delos shopfront, if you go into a subdivision, house or ship, the item resets to Delos. If you have insufficient funds in your bank account the item resets. There is the potential for a fast back and forth, each person draining their bank quickly, but that will hopefully factor into the amount of money you bid on an item, cheap enough to be effective but high enough noone is going to walk in and snatch it out from your hands without some thought.

    Items can be things similiar to Lifegiver, Golden Braid, Soulfire Crucible, Death cloak etc. Things that are extremely attractive to the playerbase and provide a strategic benefit in raids or hunting, but not so common that every dog and his cat has it and they sit gathering dust in the shop or being rented out for 1g a day.
    If I'm in the middle of hunting I'm not going to stop and participate in a bidding war for an item of limited value; whatever I gain in terms of gold or experience gain from said item is eventually going to be wiped out by constantly stopping and starting. I'd likely put in an initial bid for the item, but the moment somebody else says they're willing to pay more I'm just going to let them have it, because going back to Delos just isn't worth it.

    Ultimately, people want to come out ahead. They want to get more out than they put in, because losing in any form kind of sucks. Things like the golden braid or the rare mineral (is it Ahmetite?) have a maximum value that anybody smart will ever pay for them, and it's actually incredibly low, otherwise you're spending more on gaining the benefit than the benefit actually provides in increased gold. Experience is, perhaps, harder to attach a gold value to, but far fewer people care about experience post-dragon than care about gold, so the number of potential bidders for an item that increases experience is considerably lower among those that are generally the ones stockpiling gold.

    If you're not offering truly unique items that can't be gained any other way, there's also the issue that the people you really need to target - those with a lot of gold and/or credits waiting to spend - will likely already own those items.
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Kyrra Mining is a substantial gold sink. The majority of the materials are sold fairly close to cost if not for a loss. 
    Senoske
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,054 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I feel like gold auctions aren't really an effective means of taking gold out of the system. It improves gold circulation for sure as some people simply buy credits OOC and pump them into the market to get ahead on bids. However, the actual amount of gold that is taken out ultimately comes from one source alone: The winner.

    During the bidding process (about two weeks), CFS dips incredibly because of all the people trying to gain fast gold. There's certainly an impression that things are working, however within the last few days the price starts to surge again as the other bidders (still a testament to just how many millions of gold there really are sitting in the system) realise they don't have a chance and start trying to recoup their losses by buying back the cheap credits.

    In between all of this, other players with immense disposable incomes who aren't interested in the items on bid make a hefty profit playing the credit market. They'll buy cheap and possibly sell high or not at all, either way furthering their wealth accumulation since credit prices always inflate exponentially.

    One way or another, within a week of the auction's end, the price inevitably returns to normal.

    Now lotteries on the other hand... that forces people to empty gold out of their pockets with no guarantee of return.


    Aereidhna
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    Could also sell non-decay enchantments customizations for gold. Sell it for like 350k-500k gold. People like non-decaying things.

    This also doesn't upset game balance in any way. Of course, you would still have to pay for resetting with cr. Also make it not available for things like vials and pipes.

    Edit: @Finkle ;
    +1 to  your idea for sure as well. Along with rentable arties, that would make things lots of fun.
    Ehene
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Senoske said:
    Could also sell non-decay enchantments for gold. 
    Prismatic rings sell for 600 credits.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    Atalkez said:
    Senoske said:
    Could also sell non-decay enchantments for gold. 
    Prismatic rings sell for 600 credits.
    ?? What does that have to do with anything?

    Enchantments still fade from normal rings, and they fade -really- often. Normal rings you can't enchant more than 1 thing on, there's a ton of benefits to prismatic ring over normal rings.
    Atalkez
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oops misread


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Senoske
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    Oops misread
    Oh let me edit that, I see where I worded it wrong. Thanks.
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