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CFSocalypse: Electric Boogaloo

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  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,808 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nobody stops at one spin >_>


    MelodieAereidhna
  • DatriusDatrius Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Shaddup
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,760 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The wheel wouldn't have been nearly as popular then. It would have succeeded in draining a very large amount of gold though. 

  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 993 @ - Epic Achaean
    Skye said:
    I wonder how much difference it would have made if they had made the Wheel spins purchaseable by gold instead of bound credits. Supposing we priced the spins at the good old fashioned rate of 6k gold per credit. Each spin would've taken 150k out of the game.

    First it would've hit the gold reserves of any/all the big spinners, because when you're in a great big hurry to spin for the bonus, you're going to use whatever gold you have at hand. Those who didn't already have a big gold reserve would've used bound credits to sell and they would've gone on selling so long as the credit prices didn't dip below 6k.


    Eh.

    The problem with this is that the wheel would be a mechanism for turning gold into credits. The problem is that CFS is the same thing, so they'd be competing against each other. If the Wheel is close to even, I would expect most people to skip CFS and use their gold to spin directly, instead of buying credits so that other people can spin. If the wheel isn't close to even, people aren't going to want to buy credits in significant amounts and sell them to get spins.
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    I love that these are even issues...  remember when you could only buy credits from achaea?





    KresslackAereidhna
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Szanthax said:
    I love that these are even issues...  remember when you could only buy credits from achaea?


    Simpler times to be sure.


  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,808 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nazihk said:
    Skye said:
    I wonder how much difference it would have made if they had made the Wheel spins purchaseable by gold instead of bound credits. Supposing we priced the spins at the good old fashioned rate of 6k gold per credit. Each spin would've taken 150k out of the game.

    First it would've hit the gold reserves of any/all the big spinners, because when you're in a great big hurry to spin for the bonus, you're going to use whatever gold you have at hand. Those who didn't already have a big gold reserve would've used bound credits to sell and they would've gone on selling so long as the credit prices didn't dip below 6k.


    Eh.

    The problem with this is that the wheel would be a mechanism for turning gold into credits. The problem is that CFS is the same thing, so they'd be competing against each other. If the Wheel is close to even, I would expect most people to skip CFS and use their gold to spin directly, instead of buying credits so that other people can spin. If the wheel isn't close to even, people aren't going to want to buy credits in significant amounts and sell them to get spins.

    It is, unfortunately, a fact that the only way CFS prices will go down without direct administrative interference is by reducing the demand for credits and increasing the demand for gold. We've repeatedly, in so many words, broached the idea of making lessons purchasable by gold in some form. That suggestion was of course rejected for any number of reasons.  

    There are quite a number of people sitting on a bulk of unbound credits and unspent gold, who at any time per their requirements can cause the market to tank or inflate at their own convenience. One of the solutions we try to find for the CFS issue is some way to get these people to exhaust their reserves, because they're the ones who are capable of buying up credits to the current price, regardless of how many (or few) are being put out. 

    In that way, gold for spins is primarily about exhausting the piles of unused gold that the big earners are sitting on.

    The Wheel is ultimately a gamble though. As some people will attest, even with a considerable investment into spins there's no guarantee that you'll break even or come out on top. I think what becomes necessary is a compelling reason for people to want guaranteed credits/lessons on the spot (like a shiny new class, which we currently have) OR to risk it all on the Wheel (like some ultra exciting exclusive prizes).

    Incidentally, December is coming up around the corner. That usually means Stockings. Even being able to buy a fixed daily quantity of Stockings with gold would be nice for people who want to give gifts but can't whip out a credit card. 



    SzanthaxFrederichTorinnAereidhna
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    I was going to comment, but i realize my input is basically that of the '1%' ...

    I can do what i want when i want.

    I feel like the the only way to 'fix' this is to limit top level gold generation. But thats a hard balance to find considering if someone spends 24hrs a day online generating gold, and they want to buy more credits, should they be able to faster than I, the person with all the credits and benefits be able to? oi....

    I'm socialist so i'm ok with it :P



  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Szanthax said:
    I feel like the the only way to 'fix' this is to limit top level gold generation.
    They already put in the cap of 160k/240k gold generated from bashing, and the top gold generator (by far) went dormant shortly afterward. And we're now looking at a CFS that borders on 10k gold per credit anyway.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    SzanthaxTrillianaAereidhna
  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    1. How do stockings work nowadays ?
    2. It isn't so much the gold reserves as the fact that there's hundreds of things you can buy with credits and a rather limited number of things you can buy with gold. I for example am not a big gold generator, so I use my gold to buy credits to buy stuff that will help me generate gold faster. There's not much that I can buy with gold that'll help me in this.
    Aereidhna
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Korben So you are spending credits to be more efficient at generating gold that you have no use for?
    Liyane
  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Not as gold, no. That's why I convert it to credits.
    Puxi
  • TydasTydas Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Korben said:
    1. How do stockings work nowadays ?
    Announce 4461. Probably something similar to that, if stockings come back this Logosmas.
    Korben
  • BronislavBronislav MarylandMember Posts: 347 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Credits currently available for purchase:
    80 credits at 10001 gold per credit.
    269 credits at 10256 gold per credit.
    1 credits at 10537 gold per credit.
    Total credits for sale: 350 shown (350 total)  (Average sale price: 10237)






  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    8 at 10000.
    73 at 10001.
    269 at 10256.
    1 at 10537.

    Rip cr market.
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,760 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They are still working on the plan of how to make it better, I still have faith.

    But the urge to use my gold to buy credits is rising every day. It is hard to resist. 

    ShirszaeXadenSarathai
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    Well, a credit buying promo would probably help a bit. (coughsowoulddroppingtheprice/$forcreditscough)

    Also, helping the people who have the credits to sell them is a hard part of it too. Lot of people have just huge amounts of credits stockpiled.
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 993 @ - Epic Achaean
    Cooper said:
    They are still working on the plan of how to make it better, I still have faith.

    But the urge to use my gold to buy credits is rising every day. It is hard to resist. 
    This is part of what makes it impossible to lower credit prices, really. As soon as the prices get lower, people are going to hammer it with stockpiled gold, making prices rise again pretty much immediately.

    The other thing that makes it impossible is that gold is basically worthless to established players so they have zero incentive to sell their credits. 
  • PuxiPuxi Member Posts: 527 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Nazihk said:
    gold is basically worthless to established players 
    This is the real problem. There is no beneficial gold sink in this game if you don't want to do crafting or buy a ship. I just hit Dragon and I'm sitting on like 2.5m gold and won't even sell my unbound credits (sorry @Aegoth bby) because what am I going to do with the gold? At the top end, you have people like @Cooper, sitting on 20-30m (?) gold with literally nothing to buy except credits. The admins needs to solve this, then the CFS problem will be solved.

    Now, with that being said, I can see how this can be a tough problem to solve since whatever you introduce will either a) allow players to gain something marginal without using credits (read: no additional cash for IRE) or b) rework the entire gold system and somehow try to purge existing gold hoarders. 

    Just my 2 cents.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,344 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2016
    How about partially removing the free market element (pegging the conversion/currency rate)? This would allow players with excess gold to trade <x> amount of gold for <y> amount of credits daily from the game system without disturbing the equilibrium but also rewards players that invest time in bashing/playing the game.

    This way, credit sellers would submit the price they're willing to sell at and the lowest asks will be filled first. Market buyers won't be able to bid at a specific price, since the lowest ask orders get filled first. So, credit sellers have the ability to pay a premium (< fixed rate) to be able to get their hands on gold faster, if they have an excess of credits.

    Even if there are no credit sellers, the game system would handle the purchasing, which allows players to progress at a more decent pace without having to pay real money.

    The daily purchase limit would prevent hoarders from pumping/dumping/disturbing the system. This also offsets the problem of gold having so little market value in relation to credits.

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  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2016
    I don't think it's a market format issue at this point anymore. I think it's an absolutely massive amount of stockpiled gold being held by high end, regular players who have the largest credit consumption rates as well.

    Some massive gold sinks tailored to high end bashers needs to be added to drain some of this stock, and I think we'll start to see CFS return to more human values over the course of a few weeks.

    Maybe make the +stat potions that can currently be bought for Mayan Crowns be purchasable via gold? Or alternatively, allow Mayan Crowns to be purchased via absolutely absurd amounts of gold at a fixed/scaling price? MC artefacts are generally not combat relevant but are pretty nice to have overall (when I say generally I mean not accounting for urn, legendsteeds, etc)
    Aereidhna
  • KhairtKhairt Member Posts: 279 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    My text dad got me started with a small loan of 10000 credits


    TreyMathildaTydasTrilliana
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    Renting Artifacts for gold would be cool too. Scale cost/level. Spinable wheel with gold-purchased tickets would be cool, have it gift out artie vials and other random things at a small % chance.
    AereidhnaCaelan
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People say "gold sink, gold sink, gold sink", but rich people aren't going to just throw away gold unless the new feature is more attractive than the credits they're already saving for. Credits are the most valuable resource in the game, useful for the most things, and so until there's something more valuable than credits, nothing's really going to impact the credit market. That hypothetical gold sink would have to be something exorbitantly expensive, consumable so that it must be replaced constantly, and somehow be so attractive that end-tier players are compelled to pour gold into it consistently instead of just buying credits. That's a pretty lofty set of hopes/expectations, especially since credits are highly liquid and generally buy permanent boons, not consumables, so it's hard to picture anything consumable that would ever measure up.

    Honestly, I think this is just a fact of life in a game with a small playerbase that can retain individual players for 20+ years. Eventually those players have everything they want, and you can't just keep inventing and feeding them MacGuffins to waste their earnings without impacting the rest of the game.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Trilliana
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 347 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I have been saying it for years. Make items more scarce... ex. Weapons and armour decay MUCH faster.. herbs and minerals populate slower..  
    This will force people to spend more gold. It doesnt eliminate the gold. But has it circulate much more allowing it to be spent on various other things... alot of top tier players as you call them cant get everything themselves and will have to spend to stay active.

    Idk. Could be alot to go wrong with it but sounds like it would help out.... that or let people buy humgii racing tickets with gold!!
    PrytheSkye
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    Humgii race tickets with gold would be sexy.

    Those top-tier though won't care about the price hike on anything except the consumables. Weapons and armor = arties which eliminates that cost. Minerals and herbs I could see.

    People like vanity, which is why auctions are so successful. Maybe throw up more auctions.

    The mist is a big example why minerals and herbs being more scarce would cause the fluctuation, though. Moss tripled in price, potash though stayed the same. The rough thing about creating moss/potash shortage though is how much you need moss/potash for bashing anymore. Especially if you don't have a sip ring.
    TrillianaAereidhna
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    Proficy said:
    I have been saying it for years. Make items more scarce... ex. Weapons and armour decay MUCH faster.. herbs and minerals populate slower..  
    This will force people to spend more gold. It doesnt eliminate the gold. But has it circulate much more allowing it to be spent on various other things... alot of top tier players as you call them cant get everything themselves and will have to spend to stay active.

    Idk. Could be alot to go wrong with it but sounds like it would help out.... that or let people buy humgii racing tickets with gold!!

    Having weapons/armour decay faster doesn't really do much for the upper echelon of characters with 30+ million gold.

    Namely because that's like 3-30k for most, and the ones that don't want to upkeep will almost instantly just buy a laurel for their armor, immediately removing that gold sink from the game (and only making it worse for lower end people).

    Herbs/Minerals populating slower will hit everyone, except the people who've already stockpiled 300k+ of every mineral, etc etc.  Some people already charge inane prices for stuff, and it'll only get worse for the lower end of people, rather than the higher end.

    If you want a good, and proper way, to make the higher ups spend money, don't force necessities to see a price increase.  A gold auction would, rather handily, serve as a way to instantly take out a large swathe of money from the game.  From there, you can start working on gold sinks that actually stand to be useful.  Above there was a statement about those stat drinks from the SoW being purchasable for gold.  This isn't that bad of an idea.  It'd make them a lot similar to minerals, except that they have a price, similar to commodities.  Supply gets too low?  Prices hike up for awhile.

    Have them be +1 to a stat, except they last for 2-3 hours, compared to +2 for 1 hour.

    It won't do TOO much, but it will start dropping the gold that is currently in circulation.

    Right now, the only gold sinks that the game has is...

    A) Craft Skills
    B) Tradeskills (Commodities be expensive)
    C) Ships
    D) Running a shop (Debatable, but not really).
    E) Gambling  (Debatable)


    Beyond that, ships make a ton of money, more than people seem to really realize with the new changes, and you can easily pay off a strider in about 24 hours on a good day, so that isn't really a sink, it's a gold generator.

    Running a shop costs initial investment, and you might turn profit.

    Same for gambling.

    The only true sinks here are crafting stuff, and tradeskills.  Both of which, given enough time, CAN be profitable.
  • TydasTydas Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Proficy said:
    I have been saying it for years. Make items more scarce... ex. Weapons and armour decay MUCH faster.. herbs and minerals populate slower..  
    This will force people to spend more gold. It doesnt eliminate the gold. But has it circulate much more allowing it to be spent on various other things... alot of top tier players as you call them cant get everything themselves and will have to spend to stay active.

    Idk. Could be alot to go wrong with it but sounds like it would help out.... that or let people buy humgii racing tickets with gold!!
    The problem with that is, it only leads to inflation of gold. Things cost more gold, but gold isn't leaving the economy. It's just worth less than it used to be. This would also have a negative effect on credit prices in the long run, because by definition gold is worth less than it used to, so you need more of it to buy the same things. I'm not certain this is true though - credit prices in gold, and the price of everything else in gold, don't actually seem to be related. Achaea isn't seen currency inflation like other MMO's do - IRE has been pretty good at keeping inflation in check. There is really only one thing that has its price running up constantly, and that's credits, so all the usual tactics for fighting inflation in general aren't going to be as useful.

    The big problem is the fact that credits can be used on more and more things in the game and the real-world cost hasn't gone down. Multiclass was a really big driver for this - more classes means many more lessons than you needed for your first class. We've also gotten new artefacts, some artefacts have been split into weaker, cheaper versions making them more attractive and more immediately attainable. Cool bazaar stuff is being made non-decay, sometimes resetting. Credits are simply vanishing faster than people can buy them with RL money. No matter how much gold you suck out of the game, credit prices aren't going to see an improvement without one of two things: increase in credit availability, or decrease in credit usefulness. We see the first on big credit sales. 40% sales drives the price of CFS down a lot. But, IRE loses money on this, so it's not the best long term solution. The second one is better, but harder to pull off since credit usefulness is why people tend to buy them in the first place, and there's the justifiable fear that if credits aren't as useful, fewer people are going to buy them with RL money.

    Purchasing lessons from an NPC with gold is one of the best solutions I've heard. It'd be a massive gold sink for those that want one, but more importantly it'd take pressure off credit scarcity. You also can't really tie the price of credits to the price of gold per lesson, even though credits give fixed amounts of lessons, because credits can be used for other things gold can't be spent on, like customisations or artefacts. Even if gold per credit settled around 6 times gold per lesson, the price would still move around due to its extra uses. Ideally, we'd see the credit-to-lesson conversion removed entirely, with people who want lessons faster buying credits to sell for the gold they need. I'd also like to see the ability to trade credits to other players (other than same-account registered players) removed - maybe even removing the idea of "bound" credits entirely. All credits going through CFS.

    Somehow I doubt any of that will happen, though.
    SenoskePuxi
  • PuxiPuxi Member Posts: 527 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Some decent ideas so far here.

    I would really love to hear @Makarios or @Nicola ring in with an update on where this stands since they've already identified it as a problem.
    LiyaneAchilles
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