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Is automation good or bad for combat in Achaea?

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  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Right, that's because evolution is the way of life. The world isn't static and never remains static. When you say "until reasonably good autocuring," you're right that we didn't need the skills and balance centered around automation then that we have now, but good automation was, from the moment the first regex trigger rolled out, an inevitability. Sure, I had a ton of fun fighting before fully automated, prioritizing curing scripts existed, but lamenting the natural evolution of the game is like lamenting the technological march of progress in real life.

    You can argue against it in philosophical exercises like this, but at the end of the day, it just doesn't do you any good. We can't stop it, and we can't turn back time, so we adapt.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    SylvariaShirszaeAustereDochitha
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Kiet had the most interesting post to read and he edited it out.  I wanted to finish reading all of it later and now I don't have the link :(
  • ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Personally, I'v never automated anything on the offensive side.

    I have keybindings set up for limb preps and finishers, and aliases to go with them. Well that was until I went Magi, now I'm just a dweeb with no combat skills.

    But I prefer not automating, I always think my brain is going to stand a better chance against the unpredictable side of fights than something hardcoded will. 
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding going around about automation. Just to clear a few things up,  I don't think anyone turns it on and walks away.  There is still a lot of logic and changes that are made on the fly (at least for myself). If there were not,  figuring out how to stop it would be relatively simple. You can fight me ten times and never get the same fight twice.  No class really has a set offense that works 100% of the time. Curing prios, scenario changes, and intelligent defense force you to be a lot more fluid than a single alias or script loop.
    Dochitha
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,520 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Austere said:
    I feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding going around about automation. Just to clear a few things up,  I don't think anyone turns it on and walks away. 
    Yet.

    It has happened in Aetolia, and has been that way for years.

    ShirszaeJovolo
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2015
    Austere said:
    I feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding going around about automation. Just to clear a few things up,  I don't think anyone turns it on and walks away.  There is still a lot of logic and changes that are made on the fly (at least for myself). If there were not,  figuring out how to stop it would be relatively simple. You can fight me ten times and never get the same fight twice.  No class really has a set offense that works 100% of the time. Curing prios, scenario changes, and intelligent defense force you to be a lot more fluid than a single alias or script loop.
    Technically the decisions you make as a player can still be coded into your offence. It would be progressively more complex the deeper you want to go into processing, but there's no reason you can't do it and people already notoriously do in other IRE games. I'd be surprised if people didn't automate a very large majority of their combat in Achaea on average right now too
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aetolia also has static curing priorities, as well as an ability in vision that shows you what people cure with tree/focus etc. That is why you can do that in Aetolia.

    Elowin
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,462 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Agreeing here that Aetolia combat is far and beyond much more predictable than Achaean. 
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,520 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    All that does is make the systems easier to code. Nothing human players do can't be automated, given enough time and effort.

    Jovolo
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2015
    Not denying that, but to say Achaea's can be done to Aetolia's level is laughable. Achaea's simply won't be at Aetolia's level until it has static curing priorities (M&T seem pretty unlikely to ever make this happen, thankfully). Aetolia's AI scripts are also ridiculously easy to fool, and is by no means an insta-win thing, where you can walk away from your comp and still win with.

    Elowin
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2015
    Cynlael said:
    Not denying that, but to say Achaea's can be done to Aetolia's level is laughable. Achaea's simply won't be at Aetolia's level until it has static curing priorities (M&T seem pretty unlikely to ever make this happen, thankfully). Aetolia's AI scripts are also ridiculously easy to fool, and is by no means an insta-win thing, where you can walk away from your comp and still win with.
    I think you're comparing the wrong things. It's not about Achaea vs Aetolia combat system, but rather the relative ability to replicate a player's thought process in combat with a computed system. Every decision you make as a player can be placed into a system. I don't think anyone's accomplished it yet because it's a pretty huge project, but theoretically there's no reason you couldn't in this day and age and people are moving towards that.

    To maybe better explain my point, a perfect system in Achaea would still be subject to RNG Jesus because that's how Achaea works and we as players are also subject to that. Aetolia doesn't have that specific problem and it propagates from player decision making to computed decision making, but when it comes down to it Achaea can still replicate a player's thought process to the same extent Aetolia can. 

    Cooper said essentially the same thing in fewer words.
  • IseriaIseria Member Posts: 1
    RE: Aetolia vs Achaea and automation.

    Aetolia is very much a press F1, walk away and win game. It requires very little attention or input from the player to succeed in combat once you have a fairly decent offense, which are available for free on the forums with a little tweaking. The combination of lack of balancing/power creep and static curing orders have made it really easy to automate offense to great effect there.

    For Achaea, that's not quite as true. While theoretically you could do it with time and coding knowledge, it's still a huge feat. Disclaimer: I'm out of the loop on the state of Achaean combat considering I dipped out a long while back, but without static curing orders and stuff like discernment, I imagine aff trackers would have trouble perfectly figuring out which affs someone has outside of a select few. Even disregarding that, as the most played IRE game Achaea's always been pretty good about keeping classes more or less in line with each other, so even if full automation is possible, it still wouldn't be able to replicate the effectiveness of a human with quick reflexes being able to monitor the fight and queue up the proper response to the situation. Well, not impossible to do, but in the amount of time and effort that would go into that, you might as well just git gud with macros/aliases.

    For the record and @ the original point of the topic, while I love Aetolia's combat, I miss beating people with my 50 macros/aliases and having to react to the situation. Non-automated offense is fun and making the game to the point where you have to automate or lose sucks. The only rush you get out of combat at that point is after you lose having to fix whatever script didn't work right.

    tl;dr: Aetolia is ezmode to automate and kick ass, Achaea would be difficult and time consuming and that is good. I've played both sides extensively, and while I love the classes on a very deep level in Aetolia, I liked Achaea's combat better. More based on my skill as a player than the skill of my dstab function. Also I'm out of date so my info may not be completely relevant to Achaea you damn kids get off my lawn.
  • ElowinElowin Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aetolia always felt more balanced. I never felt like it was just someone's class or their artifacts that beat me, they had codded better or capitalized on a situation better. But Achaea's combat is more fun and far less coding heavy, even if I feel like I'll never be able to compete w/o IRL money, which does occasionally tempt me to quit.

    Just my 2 cents.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,212 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Elowin said:
    Aetolia always felt more balanced. I never felt like it was just someone's class or their artifacts that beat me, they had codded better or capitalized on a situation better. But Achaea's combat is more fun and far less coding heavy, even if I feel like I'll never be able to compete w/o IRL money, which does occasionally tempt me to quit.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Efficiency and experience can't be bought. It's why Ayoxele does just fine with nearly no arties at all.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ayoxele is a good example of someone who competed at a higher tier in combat, but he'll tell you himself that without arties he couldn't compete in the top tier. The lack of health specifically makes you incredibly vulnerable to very basic strategies from certain classes.

    Yes, it's possible to have good strategy and be competitive without arties, but saying you can compete at the top level without them is pretty inaccurate.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    JovoloTvistorMami
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Something that's bypassed by getting levels. His only health artifact is a lv1 con belt. His only artifacts is that, and wings (maybe a diadem, don't remember). Con spec is more than fine (I guess that's a statement which depends on your class more than anything, but still).

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It depends on class, yeah. Some classes can get like 4-5k health without arties and without sacrificing offense. It's true that health is basically the only real arty wall, though. Once you're covered on health as long as your class isn't one of the weapon-dependent ones you're set regardless of escrow value.
    Xinna
  • ElowinElowin Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Generally, when I say 'artifacts,' I mean artifact weapons and the like. Stuff that speeds up offense (which Aetolia doesn't have.) I should be more specific when I post, I suppose.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes arties speeding up offense is pretty silly, but plenty of classes don't have that.
  • ElowinElowin Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Yeah, any other kind of artifact is just an advantage. Shouldn't seriously prevent you from being able to fight someone. Artifacts that speed up offense can straight up break a class, IMO, and the game would be better off w/o them.

    /soapbox
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2015
    If you never 'got beat by someone's artifacts' in Aetolia, you likely didn't fight many of the 'top' people. Ezalor and Daskalos were classic cases of 'what the hell just hit me?' (both decent in their own right, but holy hell did they hit like trucks) - There were a fair few others, but I guess it wasn't that noticeable because most of them didn't fight 1v1 fairly often, or in their hard-hitting classes when they did.

    edit Illidan/Seir in Monk (albeit Sentinel mains) were up there with those two, as well.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    edit2: You're also pretty incorrect in saying Aetolia doesn't have speed-related things.

    Silver Crown                      850cr
    ---------------------------------------
    Artifact Property: equilibrium_recovery
    Reduces equilibrium costs by 7%.

    And this

    A rune of empowerment
    ---------------------
    Power: statboost
    Cost: 200/400/800cr

    Boosts your weapon's stats by 6 points per level of the rune.

    (this includes speed, of which only 2 weapon classes aren't affected by the increase)

    And this

    A rune of targeting
    -------------------
    Cost: 500cr

    Adds extra body part damage based on how much you normally do. You will do an extra 5% than normal.
    i.e. 5% based on how much you were already doing. It will not increase it from 5% to 10%, but instead from 5% 
    to 5.25%.

    More limb damage = things break faster = sped up offence.

    There's also things that reduce resource costs for some classes, which in turn lets them use those abilities more often (and thus progress their offense easier)

    Let's not forget the MASSIVE amount of damage boosting things that Aetolia has, and there's plenty of classes which have skills that benefit from you being lower health/mana - Vampire is the first thing that comes to mind, fairly certain Shaman is another. But haven't played there in ~9 months, so can't remember the other things.

  • KhelKhel Member Posts: 279 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Lol, that rune (I have it) doesn't do anything meaningful for speed. It is damage only. Stats soft cap at 165, so a 165 speed bardiche swings at 2.16 and a 180 speed goes at 2.15 (numbers made up, difference between is not). You'll hit way harder with the same speed and higher damage from the rune though, sure. Aetolia has bargain arties too - an item that gives you +1 in every state, +sip/+con, and they last 30 days and cost 15k per. You can also use refining to get ANOTHER flat resist. While some classes exist that do a lot of damage, the days of Dask hitting for 4k in Templar are (mostly) gone with the exception of Vampire, Carnifex and Shaman, with all three being classes that kill via damage routes - monk hits hard too still, but dodge/parry will help mitigate and they are vulnerable to hinder. I also think it is a lot easier to get married in Aetolia because of city credit rewards - I at one point made 100cr in a RL week harvesting resources, and arti prices are similar.
  • ElowinElowin Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Yeah, you can totally get hit by some overwhelming damage. In which case you flee, turtle, heal. Same as Achaea. Afflictions are king, and anything that lets you deliver afflictions faster will kill more efficiently 99.9% of the time.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2015
    Atalkez said:
    Elowin said:
    Aetolia always felt more balanced. I never felt like it was just someone's class or their artifacts that beat me, they had codded better or capitalized on a situation better. But Achaea's combat is more fun and far less coding heavy, even if I feel like I'll never be able to compete w/o IRL money, which does occasionally tempt me to quit.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Efficiency and experience can't be bought. It's why Ayoxele does just fine with nearly no arties at all.
    Depends on what you mean by just fine. He can't compete at the top tier as Jarrod said, and Ayo would tell you that himself. It's just not possible with the gap artefacts create. If anything he's a good example of someone with top tier knowledge and the ability to execute that is still held back by the pay wall.
    TvistorMami
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,212 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sure, fine is subjective.

    I didn't mean he can walk in and beat the Proficy/Jhui/Seragorns of Achaea, but that's to be expected. Could he compete on a regular basis with those of us with sub 7,000 escrow? Sure, unless it was a damage strategy like Jarrod said. I suppose I didn't exactly make that clear with my post.

    That's a good point about top tier knowledge being held back by the pay wall, because it's true. That's going to be true in any game where you have the ability to purchase things that alter your survivability of your character, though.

    I don't disagree that the pay wall exists, in the slightest. Most of my artie purchases stemmed from the frustration of losing when if I had <x> I could have survived, etc. It's definitely there, and if you want to access the top tier of combat, you have no choice but to artie up.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You say that as if it's common for games to let you purchase the ability to alter your character's survivability. There aren't a whole lot of those left! The rest of the F2P industry generally went into a convenience/grind-removal/cosmetic direction with premium purchases. Of course, Achaea doesn't have the same kind of market/audience, but it's still pretty justified for people to be annoyed about it since it's so rare.
    Hellen
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2015
    Like half of the free to play multiplayer games on steam have pay2win... It's just masked by the fact that most of the bonuses are minor. But like Achaea, all those minor bonuses add up to pure stupidity with enough money. Difference with Achaea, is that you -can- get there without purchasing a single credit. Just look at Grandue. Sure it takes a lot of effort, but you still can, with patience.

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2015
    Yeah you're right, it's just masked better, I guess. And more affordable, usually, but we've been over that and what it means with smaller playerbases. But most of them have the same 'pay or grind' philosophy, too, so that's not really any different.

    It's not 'effort' or 'patience' it's 'more free time than most people can/will devote to a game.' Sure, I got a lot of credits in game, but that's because I played an absurd amount, and that goes even more for the 100% in-game credits people, or the ones that have made massive in-game fortunes.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achaea is just like an expensive hobby that you don't get much utility out of but some people find quite enjoyable and niche. Like, you know, stamp collecting. You pay absurd amounts for things of intrinsic value and if you show/tell people irl, they look at you funny and laugh at you, so you do it in your spare time and out of sight.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

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    TvistorDochithaSobriquet
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    You can fight top tier without arties in Achaea, but you have to choose your class accordingly. Not every class can do it.

    To me, the biggest draw of arties was group combat. I always felt competitive in 1v1 without arties, but could never rock Twins or be a group combat god. Sure, in 1v1 you have to do more to win, but it's been done (as long as you're an appropriate class).
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