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Is automation good or bad for combat in Achaea?

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  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Hmm, automation is both good and bad. Combat's a rather fast game, so it kinda becomes necessary to some degree just to get the most out of your actions. Without the speed of combat, though, I think the game would be rather boring.

    Automation puts up a skill ceiling in terms of code, which can be kind of bad. It makes people either get scripts or learn to code themselves. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's an extra layer of complexity onto an already complex system.

    On the other hand, I don't think anyone really minds automation against PVE stuff. This problem is pretty much only in the realm of PVP, which makes sense.

    In the end, I think a certain amount of automation is enough to get more enjoyment out of the game, but full automation would probably just take the fun out of it after a time. It might be fun to just set up two bots to fight one another in the arena or something and see how well they perform, though.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jovolo said:
    Has anyone been put down or insulted in this thread? O.o
    I felt it best to lay the information out, if we are going to continue the useless discussion of automation.  Obviously people frown on automation.  That's fine, frown way.  If you use it, though, it's time to stop being a hypocrite. Offense is entirely viable manual still.  If that's you're cup, have at. If automation is your cup, knock yourself out.  

    Sarapis hates automation, but he is intelligent enough to realize that it's here. He can ban it, sure, but the scripts are already out there.  The game will never be rid of it, now. 
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,537 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Catch-22 here. Server side curing came in because we didn't want lack of a curing system to stop people playing, therefor the offensive systems had to get better to counter it.

    Regardless, the fact is you aren't going to get anywhere combat wise without being able to code. Whether that's good or bad is up to your point of view
    image
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Offensive systems didn't really need to get better for server side curing, though. It doesn't do anything old systems couldn't do except ignore offensive illusions, and that's only applicable to a couple of classes. Illusions stopped being a mainstay even for serpents years ago. Serpents got so buffed they're way stronger now, anyway, so if anything serpent got easier. The other classes with illusions didn't need them to be strong.


  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,328 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I had a longer post on this written and decided against it because I'm simply not well-versed enough in combat mechanics to make credible assertions on them.

    I will say, however, that automation and non-automation boils down to one thing. Either a loss in speed and an increase in flexibility and intuition or a loss in flexibility and intuition for an increase in speed. No matter how complex a script gets, it can only ever seem intuitive and there will be limits to the script's capability. Scripts are just emotionless logic circuits that ask "is this condition present?" and executes an action based on the answer of that question. No person can possibly think of every possible situation and those lapses are where automation fails and when the human intuition can succeed.

    I'm talking black and white here, not partial-automation or some such.
    All in all though, I see automation in combat as neither good nor bad. There are upsides and downsides to both schools of thought. Automation has kept me out of the scene for a very different reason: I can't be fussed to write an offense script to match others, but don't want to learn how to beat them manually (which is entirely doable).

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jonathin said:
     Automation has kept me out of the scene for a very different reason: I can't be fussed to write an offense script to match others, but don't want to learn how to beat them manually (which is entirely doable).
    Tell Austere //Yoyoyo, I need some help, you need someone to fight,  let's make this happen.

    It wouldn't be the first time I created an offense for an opposing faction, darn sure won't be the last. I do rage a little bit though everytime someone kills me using things I helped them write.

    Just don't be this guy(From when I was Ashtani): https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d09009b6
    Exelethril
  • AesiAesi Member Posts: 1,222 @ - Epic Achaean
    Austere said:
    Jonathin said:
     Automation has kept me out of the scene for a very different reason: I can't be fussed to write an offense script to match others, but don't want to learn how to beat them manually (which is entirely doable).
    Tell Austere //Yoyoyo, I need some help, you need someone to fight,  let's make this happen.

    It wouldn't be the first time I created an offense for an opposing faction, darn sure won't be the last. I do rage a little bit though everytime someone kills me using things I helped them write.

    Just don't be this guy(From when I was Ashtani): https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d09009b6
    Why did I know that was Aelios before I clicked it rofl
    Austere
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aesi said:
    Austere said:
    Jonathin said:
     Automation has kept me out of the scene for a very different reason: I can't be fussed to write an offense script to match others, but don't want to learn how to beat them manually (which is entirely doable).
    Tell Austere //Yoyoyo, I need some help, you need someone to fight,  let's make this happen.

    It wouldn't be the first time I created an offense for an opposing faction, darn sure won't be the last. I do rage a little bit though everytime someone kills me using things I helped them write.

    Just don't be this guy(From when I was Ashtani): https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/d09009b6
    Why did I know that was Aelios before I clicked it rofl
    That one is in my logs file under "Wins". Seriously, though, I really don't care to help people.  Particularly if you have something I haven't written an offense for yet.  Been having a blast doing am SnB, and I have never even considered going knight. 
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:

    I personally (and I am aware some people may find this insulting - it is not intended as such), do not consider anyone who relies on an automated offense as good as someone who doesn't, regardless of the win/lose ratio. That's a bit of a sweeping statement, but I'm sure people get the general jist.

    I think combat skill should be based on your knowledge of combat, both offensive and defensive.  Not your typing speed, your reading speed, or how many arties you own.  It's far easier to manual a monk offense prep than it is to automate it.  Just because someone figures out a way, doesn't mean they are any less of a fighter.  On equal ground, with equal knowledge,  an expert manual person should garner more respect. Good luck trading that for experience, though.  

    I will gladly fight people manual.  Seriously, if you want a manual fight against me, just ask.  Easy enough to uninstall stuff and allow you to teamviewer the whole time to make sure I don't cheat.  Done it before and it's always a blast.  

  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,917 Achaean staff
    Austere said:
    Makarios said:

    I personally (and I am aware some people may find this insulting - it is not intended as such), do not consider anyone who relies on an automated offense as good as someone who doesn't, regardless of the win/lose ratio. That's a bit of a sweeping statement, but I'm sure people get the general jist.

    I think combat skill should be based on your knowledge of combat, both offensive and defensive.  Not your typing speed, your reading speed, or how many arties you own.  It's far easier to manual a monk offense prep than it is to automate it.  Just because someone figures out a way, doesn't mean they are any less of a fighter.  On equal ground, with equal knowledge,  an expert manual person should garner more respect. Good luck trading that for experience, though.  

    I will gladly fight people manual.  Seriously, if you want a manual fight against me, just ask.  Easy enough to uninstall stuff and allow you to teamviewer the whole time to make sure I don't cheat.  Done it before and it's always a blast.  


    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Knowledge is extremely important. Indeed, this becomes even more apparent when someone is not automating their offense or situational reactions, because their is a reliance on them knowing what a situation is and how to best react.

    I have known some people over the years with an absolutely incredible understanding of the Achaean combat system, who knew absolutely anything you would care to know. Many of them were very subpar pkers in practice. You can even equate that to a sport; the coach may know more, but they're not the one competing.

    But I think this is one of those arguments that there will be no changing the others mind on, so we can probably skip it.

    AustereExelethril
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Makarios said:

    I am very much in the anti automation camp, personally.

    It is very much not the case that anything in today's achaea requires people to automate where they didn't have to in the past. If anything, with the number of QoL additions, it is easier now to not automate than it was previously.

    It also definitely does raise the barrier to entry; a very competent pker can fight a skilled person using automation, but a less skilled person not using automation very likely cannot fight a less skilled person who is using automation. There is no real scenario in which this is a good thing.

    As a side note, we do not downgrade classes based on automation. We might change them to be less easy to automate (we're always looking for ways to do that), but no class has received a downgrade that I'm aware of with that being the driving force. They're intended for manual use.

    I personally (and I am aware some people may find this insulting - it is not intended as such), do not consider anyone who relies on an automated offense as good as someone who doesn't, regardless of the win/lose ratio. That's a bit of a sweeping statement, but I'm sure people get the general jist.


    Shaman -is- balanced around automation though. I haven't seen a -single- successful shaman combatant anytime recently who didn't automate, and it's gotten a number of nerfs that make it even harder to play without automating.

    It's just too fast. Everything else basically, I agree can be played manually. But as someone who can play basically every class manual EXCEPT shaman, I just find it hard to say that it's not balanced around automation. 

    I mean, you certainly don't have to one-button it. But it's really hard to change curses every second while tracking affs in your head, chasing your opponent when they run, and also paying the necessary attention to everything being done -to you-.

    CampaignForShamanRework2015.

    LyrDochitha
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Some of the people I respect most as fighters are closet automated. Just because someone doesn't come right out and say it, doesn't mean we should assume they are manual.  Anyway, 

    How to nerf the automation I do:

    Squint needs a balance. Auto chasing is entirely too easy currently.  Couple color triggers and you can never escape. Trust me, I have one that I leave disabled. The few times I have turned it on in testing, it's ridiculous. 

    Setalias needs to be more generalized on what it tells you that you sat the alias as.  Being able to capture Apostate, Shaman, Alchemist, Magi (impurity) and who knows what else is not supposed to be that easy.  If the player can't tell what they sent from the attack message, other ways shouldn't be viable.

    On a similar note,  Queue running commands need to be more generalized.  You can literally capture what curse you sent in the exact same line that it gets sent.  Same with a bunch of other "Hidden" stuff. 

    Ghost changes: add a comma to all the "Target not in room" triggers would tear up a lot of people. Don't announce it, do it bimonthly. Bonus, you kill auto hunters too. 

    More relevant abilities such as monk immunity. Seriously, if it ticks on paralysis, gg. Unless they are willing to capture every single attack that can't be performed while paralyzed(I am not).

    Give more classes the ability to illusion while sacrificing minimal offense.  Defensive illusions are the best counter to automation.  Good fighters can manual.  Those that are not good will lose. 

    More "Easy" clases. You guys converted magi from a non automated class into one of the easiest to automate.  Stop trying to over complicate to get around it.  Give people with no automation more options. 

    Change the envenom lines.  Seriously, if I type dck (curare/kalmia), I know what I sent.  There is no reason to have the server tell me.  "You rub some venom on a dirk."

    Standardize and release a serverside limb counter.  I track rebounding hits, all third party hits, reset timers, and broken cures for everyone now.  There is literally no reason to make it as difficult as it is.  The only thing it's doing is buffing the haves vs the have nots.

    More random afflictions from a pool. Seriously, occie is tough to code.  Occie would chew AK up and spit out out.  There is no way the format would mesh together as strongly is possible. You would nerf everyone but maybe 10 people that run person x's offense and the few that code their own.  Start small, work your way up.  

    *This list was made at work without the ability to look at my system.  If I remember tonight, I will see what else I got"


    *Disclaimer: there are people that automate.  There are people that have only got into combat because of the ability to lean on a script.  If you competely kill it, you will drive some of them away from fighting.  I personally do not want to see anyone quit over something that, regardless of what you change, some people will still be able to do.  I will gladly switch back to full manual theday automation becomes difficult to the point that no one supports it or uses it.  Until that time, I feel like, as a player interested in an even playing field, I cannot afford to stop offering AK support.



    ExelethrilAesiDochitha
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,537 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Austere I had no idea people automated such things as chasing someone, I'm seriously out of the loop but that just seems.. almost cheating. It's not, but it's no wonder I felt like such a combat newb after 2 yrs away. 
    image
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sobriquet said:
    @Austere I had no idea people automated such things as chasing someone, I'm seriously out of the loop but that just seems.. almost cheating. It's not, but it's no wonder I felt like such a combat newb after 2 yrs away. 
    Haves vs the have nots.  I considered releasing all the fancy code, but quite frankly, I don't want to fight that crap.  I have only ever used mine vs Jadys in a spar for testing when I wrote it. Ask anyone that has fought me.  My chasing sucks.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Austere said:

    Ghost changes: add a comma to all the "Target not in room" triggers would tear up a lot of people. Don't announce it, do it bimonthly. Bonus, you kill auto hunters too. 


    That just makes everyone spend 30 seconds every two months/weeks to update their triggers. That's a mild annoyance, but not something I could imagine reducing automation at all significantly.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I don't think Shaman can be one buttoned anyway, it's certainly got a lot of variety even though curses needs to be automated. I think I have about 15 different cursing scripts, as well as an alias for every curse and vodun command as my main setup for Shaman. Sure, you can one button against noobs and that is a problem, but against anyone decent there's a lot of work to be done to kill them.

    I'm all for a Shaman rework to reduce the need to automate, I've been going full manual on Magi and it's quite fun, although I enjoy the variety of options Shaman has in combat more than Magi's very linear kill routes.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited October 2015
    Your alias/envenom suggestions wouldn't work Austere. Easy enough to set a variable on the client side, see the alias set or envenom confirmed message and set a new variable to the old one.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There are ways around all of this stuff. .it's mitigation.  I believe I already asserted that automation was here to stay.  "Even with banning, the scripts are out there"
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,307 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We should do a day where every room is embedded with uncounterable retardation
    image
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Savage
    AtalkezAusterePieraBorran
  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,504 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:

    It also definitely does raise the barrier to entry; a very competent pker can fight a skilled person using automation, but a less skilled person not using automation very likely cannot fight a less skilled person who is using automation. There is no real scenario in which this is a good thing.

    A bit late to the party, but I want to point out the one thing you left out: by your own words, this means a less skilled person using automation -can- fight a very competent pker. The end result being that, while you are correct that it does raise the skill barrier in some places, it lowers it in others, and enables people who might otherwise be unable to participate in Achaean combat at a higher tier.

    As for my own opinion, I don't inherently think its a good thing or a bad thing. I just think its different, is all.

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think you are arguing against a point he is not making.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Woah where did those posts go.
  • WatchmanWatchman Member Posts: 75
    Of all the automation I dislike the most, auto-LoS is at the top.

    If I get called as a target, and people have to manually type or even auto-complete it opens up room for either human error or latency in typing speed. All of that contributes to gaps in how fast the damage can come in, and gives a greater chance for me to actually respond. When it is automated and a decent group fires at once I can go from shielded and full to dead before I can do anything.

    Loss of control as a player is a huge issue - and certainly sometimes it is absolutely warranted to have situations that give you pause, but the more combat revolves around situations you have no control over the less enjoyable it rapidly becomes.
    MelodieSaevaYselaSarapis
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,147 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Watchman said:
    Of all the automation I dislike the most, auto-LoS is at the top.

    If I get called as a target, and people have to manually type or even auto-complete it opens up room for either human error or latency in typing speed. All of that contributes to gaps in how fast the damage can come in, and gives a greater chance for me to actually respond. When it is automated and a decent group fires at once I can go from shielded and full to dead before I can do anything.

    Loss of control as a player is a huge issue - and certainly sometimes it is absolutely warranted to have situations that give you pause, but the more combat revolves around situations you have no control over the less enjoyable it rapidly becomes.
    Beyond people who auto-bash, this is definitely my number one hate in automation at the moment. It was very prevalent in the last CTF, and it just absolutely sucks.
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