Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Is automation good or bad for combat in Achaea?

DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,292 @@ - Legendary Achaean
A bit of a topic I'd like to see people's thoughts on - namely the increasing prevalence of automation scripts in general combat, at both a single-fighter and group combat level.

It's no secret that there's a plethora of scripts available to automate things, from limb preparation to affliction trackers. The push has become so ingrained into the current meta that some classes are balanced around a perfectly optimal path that requires prompt action well within half a second in order to avoid, relying either on keen foresight or a defensive script to manage in its own right.

The accessibility of these scripts isn't particularly limited, there's limbcounters available in droves and even an open affliction tracking system (Austere's) that can be used to pretty nominal effect with a bit of tweaking. The thing I am curious to see is whether people think this is ultimately beneficial for the game or not. Is requiring these scripts or a variant thereof an unreasonable barrier for getting into combat seriously? Have things become -too- fast paced?

Is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

What do you all think?
«13456

Comments

  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,724 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Err, search the forums before asking the same question again? We had a multipage thread on this not long ago.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Personally, I think it's a bad thing and it sucked the enjoyment out of Achaean combat for me and made me stop playing. People enjoy different things though, and it seems that a large amount of people prefer to create scripts to do most of their combat for them and gain satisfaction from their scripts executing well and winning them fights. More power to them and I have no intentions of saying my preferred way of fighting is superior, just different. I don't find the enjoyment in it myself.  
    Tvistor
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    Curing systems made aff trackers and scripted combat a necessity.
    ShirszaeEthoasTvistor
  • ElowinElowin Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    This ol' bugbear again.
    Shirszae
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Automated fighting has nothing to do with curing systems, though it was a natural progression with the development of systems, though definitely not a necessity.

    Automated follow, automated venom selection, automated offense have made combat vastly less enjoyable. I will admit to dabbling in some automation for some offense selection using afftrackers, but never used it in actual combat, mostly just coding testing and arena testing.

    Automated offense has really made me find combat less enjoyable, has made be bitter towards certain classes with good coders etc.

    I would say that its changing combat drastically in a negative light (for me) and will probably be the straw the pushes me to play another game.

    When I get frustrated with Achaea I go play a game that requires skill/knowledge/experience/reactions as opposed to just coding ability and knowing what is cured by what in which order.
    JovoloShirszaeTvistor
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    eb
    f
    tt
    dpa
    eb
    ek
    f
    dpa
    sv
    eb
    dpi

    good times, good times. I used to be able to type so fast. Automation has been bad for my reflexes and reaction speeds. Could never do that again. But I still enjoy being involved in things.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    SarapisTvistorUtianima
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,415 @ - Epic Achaean
    For me, I can't enjoy combat, until I got my hands on affliction tracking and coded my offense system based off the affliction tracking. 

    Things have gotten so quick and so fast and people react with very little mistake (again, automation), it makes not having a system pretty crippled.
    Elowin
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    That's part of the problem, I feel. What you described sounds to me like you can't enjoy combat in an automated environment unless you also automate combat. Which is fair, and a few have already said they feel the same way.

    We're talking about the difference not in manual or automated combat in an already automated environment but instead going manual (at least partially) in a manual environment, or automating in an automated environment. 

    It's practically impossible to police though unless you direct all traffic in achaea through a single client approved by the admin of the game and then restrict certain scripting capabilities in that client. I don't think Sarapis and Tecton are even remotely interested in pursuing such a task though. 

    Personally, it's the fact that automation optimizes to a very high level curing and defence regardless of actual personal knowledge or "skill"*, which introduces a greater gap between what you have in terms of lessons, artefacts and levels and less what you can do with what you have because that's mostly already taken care of by scripts. 

    *Skill is very subjective in achaea combat. I'm referring to the ability to manually input defensive and offensive commands while in the heat of combat that directly affects what your character does as opposed to affecting a script that affects what your character does. 

    SeftinDochithaTvistor
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah no one except coding junkies can really honestly say automation is good for combat, and they're playing an entirely different game than everyone else. The problem is there's nothing you can really do about it. That's what drew me in the first place to classes like jester that could back then screw up people who relied on automation a lot. These days a lot of the classes can abuse automated defense, but now you have to worry about automated offense too which is funny.
    Jovolo
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also the idea you 'need' automated offense is absurd. If you can't keep up and track afflictions in your head, fine, but don't say it's necessary.
    Rom
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think it's definitely becoming more ridiculous with what all is being automated now, as certain things are added to improve convenience for most players which translate to more coding options for better coders.

    For awhile it was simply affliction tracking, which sped up affliction classes somewhat (though it could be argued whether it just let people simulate the very top tier fighters in very limited scenarios). Group affliction combat became much more relevant. I think this part at least is a good thing, because the strategy of 'everyone do damage' was the most boring thing in group combat ever.

    Now with the addition of WHO <dir>, squint tracking, etc, there's auto-following in 1v1s, queues to speed combat up to max, and the availability of certain stuns means in group fights there are literal impossible situations to survive. The options for counterplay have been reduced, which is a bad thing.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    It has definitely gone from "Who is faster/quicker/more knowledgeable"  to "Who is better at coding lua/other languages" or in other cases "Who has the best coding friend". 

    The level of automation is more noticeable for some classes than others.
    DochithaHellen
  • LyrLyr Member Posts: 420 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The bad part is that combat is being balanced (or classes nerfed) with automation in mind, which further necessitates the need for it for those who really didn't use it before to be viable again.
    HellenXinnaHalosAnaria
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lyr said:
    The bad part is that combat is being balanced (or classes nerfed) with automation in mind, which further necessitates the need for it for those who really didn't use it before to be viable again.
    Not really. This is an excuse to start automating more, it's not reality. You can still play pretty much every class at a top tier with aliases and keybinds, especially since queueing is pretty simple to use.
    Rom
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Seftin said:
    It has definitely gone from "Who is faster/quicker/more knowledgeable"  to "Who is better at coding lua/other languages" or in other cases "Who has the best coding friend". 

    The level of automation is more noticeable for some classes than others.
    I think the absolute top tier people (think Jarrel, Tirac, Tanris, etc) would still be the absolute top tier if they were still actively playing, even without automation. The inclusion of automation definitely makes it easier for people to get to the level of top tier in general though if they can code/know someone who can code.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    RomHellen
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,307 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Lyr said:
    The bad part is that combat is being balanced (or classes nerfed) with automation in mind, which further necessitates the need for it for those who really didn't use it before to be viable again.
    Not really. This is an excuse to start automating more, it's not reality. You can still play pretty much every class at a top tier with aliases and keybinds, especially since queueing is pretty simple to use.
    Even if that is true, you're already running a fully automated curing system, whether its serverside or not. Does it really make a difference whether your offense does more decision making than inserting your target name into your alias/hotkey commands? Is there some imaginary ethical line between offense and defense where increasingly automating defense is fine, but automating offense at all means you're a lesser player than the supposed non-automaters?
    image
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,402 Achaean staff
    There isn't a ton that can be done about it, but one thing we could look at that's practical to change are ways that we present info that isn't really that useful to an individual who isn't using automation assistance, but is useful to client scripts that can parse that info fast enough to be useful.

    For instance, and keeping in mind that the details of combat in 2015 aren't something I'm particularly well-steeped in, thirdeye and 'who'. It was never meant to be scraped by scripts that then keep track of where everyone the script can see is located. I don't even know how useful that info is in battle (though it sure seems like it must be in group battle), but that's the type of info I'm talking about. It's not realistic to think an actual person could quickly scan that list and then have a sense of where everyone is, but a script can do it. My guess if if we thought about it, there are other places where that's the case too. 

    How big of a subset of the automation problem that is, I don't know. I suspect not that big compared to the overall problem, unfortunately, but something we could look at. Discuss!



    HellenAerek
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    Kiet said:
    Lyr said:
    The bad part is that combat is being balanced (or classes nerfed) with automation in mind, which further necessitates the need for it for those who really didn't use it before to be viable again.
    Not really. This is an excuse to start automating more, it's not reality. You can still play pretty much every class at a top tier with aliases and keybinds, especially since queueing is pretty simple to use.
    Even if that is true, you're already running a fully automated curing system, whether its serverside or not. Does it really make a difference whether your offense does more decision making than inserting your target name into your alias/hotkey commands? Is there some imaginary ethical line between offense and defense where increasingly automating defense is fine, but automating offense at all means you're a lesser player than the supposed non-automaters?
    The ideal is nothing being automated, so you're arguing with the wrong person here.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    Kiet said:
    Lyr said:
    The bad part is that combat is being balanced (or classes nerfed) with automation in mind, which further necessitates the need for it for those who really didn't use it before to be viable again.
    Not really. This is an excuse to start automating more, it's not reality. You can still play pretty much every class at a top tier with aliases and keybinds, especially since queueing is pretty simple to use.
    Even if that is true, you're already running a fully automated curing system, whether its serverside or not. Does it really make a difference whether your offense does more decision making than inserting your target name into your alias/hotkey commands? Is there some imaginary ethical line between offense and defense where increasingly automating defense is fine, but automating offense at all means you're a lesser player than the supposed non-automaters?
    You're creating an argument that no one has presented. We're talking about an actual manual environment where you create aliases/triggers yourself (or none at all, even).
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    Kiet said:
    Lyr said:
    The bad part is that combat is being balanced (or classes nerfed) with automation in mind, which further necessitates the need for it for those who really didn't use it before to be viable again.
    Not really. This is an excuse to start automating more, it's not reality. You can still play pretty much every class at a top tier with aliases and keybinds, especially since queueing is pretty simple to use.
    Even if that is true, you're already running a fully automated curing system, whether its serverside or not. Does it really make a difference whether your offense does more decision making than inserting your target name into your alias/hotkey commands? Is there some imaginary ethical line between offense and defense where increasingly automating defense is fine, but automating offense at all means you're a lesser player than the supposed non-automaters?
    The question becomes: At what point are you even bothering to play the game anymore? If your physical contribution to a game is typing 't <name>', why are you playing the game? This isn't meant to be a accusing question, simply something to think about, how much input do you have to have to the game to enjoy the game?

    The thirdeye thing with WHO B was primarily used in the past for chasing, where you could balance-less track someone while actively pursuing them (WHO B > capture name/room > auto-walk to room). Now its primary purpose is 'are they grouping for a fight' or 'who is defiling', which seems fine. The former is also covered by PRESENCES, so removing it would put non-Mdor/Targ at a disadvantage, and the latter is pretty useful imo to not walk into a huge group of people.

    I'm sure there are things that could be done to help limit some of the things (0.2s balance on WHO <dir>  or SQUINT <dir> would address some of the more recent things that have come up, where if you lose target you auto-WHO <every exit> and follow from that), but I don't think the Thirdeye stuff affects overly much in current Achaea.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,307 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I was making an argument against the statements I quoted, which said that players automating offense in today's environment are making excuses.
    image
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    I was making an argument against the statements I quoted, which said that players automating offense in today's environment are making excuses.
    No, I said the people that said they 'need' to automate offense are making excuses. Simply admit you enjoy the convenience/lack of effort/whatever you want to call it. Offense is a lot simpler than defense in Achaea, there's really no real need to automate it at all, whereas at least with defense you can say 'well manualing versus an apostate is absurd'
  • AesiAesi Member Posts: 1,222 @ - Epic Achaean
    While I think the game is fun as is, the sad truth is automation creates a barrier for entry for new players. 

    Sure, there are other things aside from combat, but anyone saying that people should do something else if they can't lua would just be proving my point.

    There is a delicate balance that must be struck. Over automation is going to alienate players and eventually kill off games like this (and it has happened) -- However I am still very much a fan of reflexes. Some things you need a little help with. (When I started I would just stare at my keyboard and go buhhhh while text flew by)

    However, I do not think the balance is up to the admins. It's up to the players. Screen scraping can't really be stopped in a console style text input/output environment. It's somewhat up to us to decide how it pans out.

    I don't really know how you can possibly quantify too much automation, but that's just my $0.02 (which is Canadian so it's basically worthless right now)
    ShirszaeJespar
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,307 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    Jacen said:
    Kiet said:
    Lyr said:
    The bad part is that combat is being balanced (or classes nerfed) with automation in mind, which further necessitates the need for it for those who really didn't use it before to be viable again.
    Not really. This is an excuse to start automating more, it's not reality. You can still play pretty much every class at a top tier with aliases and keybinds, especially since queueing is pretty simple to use.
    Even if that is true, you're already running a fully automated curing system, whether its serverside or not. Does it really make a difference whether your offense does more decision making than inserting your target name into your alias/hotkey commands? Is there some imaginary ethical line between offense and defense where increasingly automating defense is fine, but automating offense at all means you're a lesser player than the supposed non-automaters?
    The question becomes: At what point are you even bothering to play the game anymore? If your physical contribution to a game is typing 't <name>', why are you playing the game? This isn't meant to be a accusing question, simply something to think about, how much input do you have to have to the game to enjoy the game?
    Speaking as someone who enjoys coding, you're playing the game when you determine the logic and write the code, when you evaluate your performance and make adjustments. Same as the people who make their own curing systems.

    I understand your point. When you write code, you're engaging with the game at a meta level, which isn't supposed to be what the game is about.

    I came along long after fully-manual Achaea. I have no idea what it was like then. Coding is often cited as a entry barrier for new players. How bad was it in manual Achaea? I would think the complexities of managing offensive and defensive maneuvers, including multiple curing balances, would also be an entry barrier.
    image
    Aesi
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,340 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I find it funny how frequently this topic has came up in the past year, yet if you look back three years, the idea would have been laughed at by most of the people here.  This is not a new issue.  People have been automating offense for years now(4 minimum).  The main difference being that it is no longer limited to top tier or people with friends that can code (I am not saying everyone in the top tier in the past was automated by any means). 

    I released by first -public- script in September of last year.  Ernam announced that he was selling his around the same time,  which is what pushed me towards doing it(An idea I had debated with other known trackers and been told,  "Screw em.  Don't buff other players.  Let them figure out out").  I had been tracking offense for about a year  and a half before that(Old magi being my primary class). When the logic behind it was explained to me(The second time, when I started coding (had been explained before, but I  scoffed at the viability)), it was not a theory. It was a fully fledged out mechanic.  Surprisingly enough, at the time that I wrote my first tracker, there was already two different schools of thought for it.  One which is mathematically based and one that is priority based (both have their perks,  depending on your class.  Priority based I still don't fully understand) 

    Why don't we all step back from our high horse here for a second and realize that over half the people in this thread use AK. If you didn't use AK and you are fighting top tier on a frequent basis, you would be fighting automation even if Ernam had never choose to announce it to the world. Without me, automation would still be prevelant in some circles, you just wouldn't know about it.  

    Since I have helped write code for -2- blind people,  I do like to think that automation has opened up combat to more people.  Automation is in no way required. I frequently take over a script instead of letting it parse out.  It is possible to be fully automated, never have to worry about any weird scenarios, and be as optimal as possible. 1 person, imo has achieved this, and they do not use ak or godzilla. Users of AK (I can tell, btw), code on.  If you deny using automation, use it, and attempt to put others down,  shame on you.  
    AesiJacen
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Has anyone been put down or insulted in this thread? O.o
    ShirszaeTvistor
Sign In to Comment.