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Shaman bashing DPS output?

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  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, that's fuckin awkward.
    Skye
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,374 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oops. Details of multiclass druid/dragon accidentally leaked.
  • AcknuAcknu Member Posts: 23
    edited September 2015
    It seems that the shield bypass aspect was removed. That didn't take long. O.o (Unless its not written in the AB)

    Like the change though, will have to play with it.
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Shamans of the realm, unite!

    No but seriously, I have a few issues with how the class bashes, and I'd like to get some feedback from others to help figure out what needs to be done to address these issues.

    Long story short, I'm trying to burn for dragon. I've bashed from 91 to 93 in two days and I've observed a few things from this particularly heavy stint of bashing. My issues are as follows:

    • How do you deal with swiftcurse's base DPS inconsistency? If you roll a bad run on Aelkesh attunement procs, you are basically doing 20% less dps for that swiftcurse chain, and consuming more mana and more wp.
    • Even with Aelkesh attunement, the class uses an utterly incredible amount of willpower. One full run of Mirror Caves will take 48% of my wp with trans philosophy, megalith, and amulet of will active. The only solution I can think of to deal with this is to attune Daina, but you sacrifice either Marak or Ri'shen which makes you significantly squisher and impacts what you can fight realistically.
    • Cursing has extremely low base damage, reducing WSC damage to 20-40% of a mob's max health depending on its level. Under almost no circumstances can a Shaman 1 shot a mob like some of the other high damage classes, meaning that it generally takes a lot more luck (back to back crits required, which is assisted by the faster iteration speed of curses, in fairness) to quickly clear mobs. I have an l1 pendant, a glass lily buff always active while I bash, and a lucky sip available most of the time, and I still rarely get quick mob kills.
    • No raze aside from battlerage raze or hammer tattoo. A lesser issue, and we're definitely not the only class to have to deal with it. We do have recklessness, as well.
    I don't really want to swap away from the class since I love its general utility and how it plays in group combat, but the bashing is really getting me down (compared to other classes I've played, it's pretty terrible overall, even an unbanded BM does more damage than an int specced, l1 collared shaman if you get unlucky with the aelkesh procs) and I'd really like to find some way of fixing it.

    Any ideas?
    I bashed all the way to dragon via shaman and have been bashing with it exclusively up until the recent Great Hunt; however, I don't bash with Aelkesh (I attune Marak and Ri'shen), so I'm not sure I can really respond to all of your concerns. But I'll give it a whirl.

    Aelkesh gives only a chance for swiftcurse charges not to be consumed when hunting denizens. To me, that's not worth using it. Why? Because we can already re-swiftcurse at 1s intervals. Even if we wait and let swiftcurse run out (I never do), we're re-swifting at a 2.5s interval. That's still pretty fast compared to other classes, even dragon. What I do is have an echo that lets me know it's about to run out and I just re-apply it before then, which means the longest I'm not continually bashing is 1s. I love that.

    With or without Aelkesh, willpower is a pain, but what I've found works well is a circlet, trans philosophy, amulet of will + meditating with the Spirit of Daina attuned. The recovery procs much faster for me that way and I'm quickly back to killing things after depleting my willpower stores. If you have shrine powers, you could also tap into those. Not every Order has the essence to spare though.

    High intelligence (Sash of Epicurus, at least), lucky and crit pendants ( have a level 3) are a shaman's friend. I crit just under 50% of the time if everything is working the way it should, often taking out mobs in one hit. That said, you're right: It's not like some other high damage classes at all. My fear is that if we get more base damage though, they'll slow us down and then I'll never hunt as a shaman again, heh. What I love about shaman hunting is how fast it is (and with every hit there's a chance for a crit). 

    Personally, I didn't think a raze was really needed (if you were using your rage effectively). When the target is 25% or below, invoke cesaret. They'll go reckless and never shield. Arius at a 3s balance cost is just too slow for my personal bashing preferences, but it's a nice option to have, I suppose!








    Praxides
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Just a quick reminder (not that anyone's said otherwise here): Faster attacks let you crit more often, but don't make crit chance "better" than on slow attacks (aside from the fact that you're typically overkilling by less). It makes bashing more fun, but it doesn't mean that crit chance is way more valuable as a shaman than it is on a 2h knight.

    A 25% crit chance on a 100 damage attack with a 1 second balance is the same dps as a 25% crit chance on a 200 damage attack with a 2 second balance. Crit chance is a multiplier for your DPS, so if your DPS is balance without crits, then it's just as balance with crits.

    People in Achaea have historically had a tendency to really misunderstand this - like the endless references to how monk is so much better at bashing because they have about three times as many chances to crit as other classes.

    As for this Arius thing, I still think it's a really random ability to use to implement this (I wonder if the only reason Arius was chosen was that it had an appropriate passive for newbies to attune to while bashing?). I love the idea of a spiritlore bashing attack for all the reasons you mention @Daeir, and I think it's a lot more fun for novices to be directed toward spiritlore with all of its utility than curses, which is just a list of afflictions, I just think making it Roar was a weird way of doing it. If you were designing a new bashing attack for Shaman, recognising that bashing attacks tend to be really thematic and representative of the class, a Druid's hydra roar seems like such a thoroughly bizarre choice, especially with that weird balance/equilibrium duality it has now.

    What would be neat is something like a new ability to bind some historical shaman's spirit that gives you some variation on cursing that does largely the same thing as this.

    (I'm even more curious about the shield bypass now that it looks like it's gone!)
    Bluef
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Not bashing with Aelkesh I simply can't understand. The 2-3% health regain per 10 seconds from Ri'shen isn't worth sacrificing doubling the amount of time before you run out of willpower. The increase in dps from Aelkesh is only a nicety.
    TaelCooper
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I do both, for very different reasons. If it's something I am having a hard time staying alive against I use Ri'shen and Marak. If it's trash that I could kill unattuned I use Aelkesh and Daina, that's just how I manage my WP to last longer and I sometimes see my WP increasing from using Aelkesh and Daina.


    BluefDochitha
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Arius still goes through shield, it just isn't specified in the AB.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Would swapping 15->14 con for 14->15 int be worthwhile in the overall scheme of things?
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Would swapping 15->14 con for 14->15 int be worthwhile in the overall scheme of things?
    the way I see it, you'll prefer more con, since int seems to be less influential on your curse bleed damage (though I could be wrong and I can throw you a sash to test that out later, @Daeir)
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Would swapping 15->14 con for 14->15 int be worthwhile in the overall scheme of things?
    @Daeir when I was hunting to dragon, I went full int.  I have almost always played a full int shaman and never really regretted that decision.  With battlerage and hunting changes, I don't see you being able to run through dks anymore, but the difference in kill speed was noticeable to me at the time.  I am almost certain collar effects it too and don't care to loan you both if we're both around. If memory is correct and collar boosts it,  I would be willing to bet it's more substantial than int. 

    In the grand scheme, can you easily tank where you frequently hunt? If not, then no.  If yes, probably. 
    BluefAchimrst
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, absolutely no problem tanking since I'm almost always fully blessed and have runes + SoA and Marak attunement. Gonna swap to int and see how it goes.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Yeah, absolutely no problem tanking since I'm almost always fully blessed and have runes + SoA and Marak attunement. Gonna swap to int and see how it goes.
    If you're always runed, try skipping out and borrowing a sash from someone or big T. Easiest way to find out. 
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Austere said:
    Daeir said:
    Would swapping 15->14 con for 14->15 int be worthwhile in the overall scheme of things?
    @Daeir when I was hunting to dragon, I went full int.  I have almost always played a full int shaman and never really regretted that decision.  With battlerage and hunting changes, I don't see you being able to run through dks anymore, but the difference in kill speed was noticeable to me at the time.  I am almost certain collar effects it too and don't care to loan you both if we're both around. If memory is correct and collar boosts it,  I would be willing to bet it's more substantial than int. 

    In the grand scheme, can you easily tank where you frequently hunt? If not, then no.  If yes, probably. 
    Wholeheartedly agree. I've spec-ed both DEX and CON in the past, but switching to full INT made a noticeable difference in hunting, especially after I purchased my Sash. 
    AchimrstAustereDaeir
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Yeah I've been borrowing an l3 sash and hooooooly shit. I popped a verillium for 21 int and was cursing for 4% on some mobs. 4% a second. Base. Bonkers.

    What zones did you dragonfolk bash at 96+?
    BluefPraxidesDochitha
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,282 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Daeir said:
    Yeah I've been borrowing an l3 sash and hooooooly shit. I popped a verillium for 21 int and was cursing for 4% on some mobs. 4% a second. Base. Bonkers.

    What zones did you dragonfolk bash at 96+?
    Moghedu, Dks, Sidhe, Unsidhe, Dun Fortress (rarely, I was normally out of wp by then)

    Edit: can't forget Delosian guards.  Man I miss Ashtani bashing.

    Edit 2: if you're a shaman, and you're not killing the boars in black forest, I don't know what you're doing with your life.  I really don't.  Amazing gold drop, risk free, fairly fast. 
    BluefPraxides
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Istarion, mostly
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Azdun, Istarion, Dun Fortress, anything that moves, heh.
  • DaironDairon Member Posts: 330 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aalen, Morindar, Tenwat, Istar, Istarion, Tir, and then meditate some to Mysia and back. 

    I was using 20 dex during the Greathunt as a serpent:  garrotes < 1.3 seconds made me soooo fast. 
    Just rotate through the easier things. The experience stack (from being alive too long) on a few places are amazing if you can find them. 

    Praxides
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Adventurers


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    TaelCaladbolgBluefSeth
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,413 @ - Epic Achaean
    Hunting Tir, Istarion, Delos guards mainly. Lately in LHG...thrilling. 


  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So there's a few things I'd like to point out from my experience thus far.

    • If you have bad latency, script something to have swiftcursing done on the serverside via queuing instead of clientside looping. If my math is right, I was losing roughly 28% of my base dps to low curse speed, averaging at 1.3s~ per swiftcurse instead of the 1.0~ you can get using serverside. When you are working with a speed as fast as ours, every second counts.
    • This becomes VERY apparent if you are using a 3 step rage rotation - ie, high damage, then low damage, then affattack (vurus in our case) if none are available. What was happening to me was vurus was never coming up and I had no idea why. I now know it is because I was attacking more than 25% slower than I should have been, thus not generating rage fast enough to have the excess. 
    With these issues fixed, and the swiftcurse at 1 to half the buff up time, I can pretty safely say that Shaman DPS feels pretty goddamn good, especially with Arius added to top it all up.

    Good enough infact, that I've been able to keep up a 1 level a day pace to dragon with some effort.

    Wouldn't have been possible without the help of more than a few people in this thread, thanks for the advice everyone!

    PraxidesDochithaBluefCynlael
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:

    Good enough infact, that I've been able to keep up a 1 level a day pace to dragon with some effort.
    You got this!
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
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    DaeirPraxides
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,297 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    So there's a few things I'd like to point out from my experience thus far.

    • If you have bad latency, script something to have swiftcursing done on the serverside via queuing instead of clientside looping. If my math is right, I was losing roughly 28% of my base dps to low curse speed, averaging at 1.3s~ per swiftcurse instead of the 1.0~ you can get using serverside. When you are working with a speed as fast as ours, every second counts.
    • This becomes VERY apparent if you are using a 3 step rage rotation - ie, high damage, then low damage, then affattack (vurus in our case) if none are available. What was happening to me was vurus was never coming up and I had no idea why. I now know it is because I was attacking more than 25% slower than I should have been, thus not generating rage fast enough to have the excess. 
    With these issues fixed, and the swiftcurse at 1 to half the buff up time, I can pretty safely say that Shaman DPS feels pretty goddamn good, especially with Arius added to top it all up.

    Good enough infact, that I've been able to keep up a 1 level a day pace to dragon with some effort.

    Wouldn't have been possible without the help of more than a few people in this thread, thanks for the advice everyone!

    With the introduction of queuing, everyone who cares about efficiency and effectiveness should be using it. A simple script is all you need to make your queue do swiftcurse instead of your bashing curse.

    Praxides
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    send("queue add eqbal swiftcurse " ..target.. " bleed")
    send("queue add eqbal swiftcurse &tar bleed")

    or whatever the syntax is.

    Don't even need a script as long as you trigger your last swiftcurse to put up swiftcurse.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Bluef
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Daeir said:
    So there's a few things I'd like to point out from my experience thus far.

    • If you have bad latency, script something to have swiftcursing done on the serverside via queuing instead of clientside looping. If my math is right, I was losing roughly 28% of my base dps to low curse speed, averaging at 1.3s~ per swiftcurse instead of the 1.0~ you can get using serverside. 
    Not gonna lie, this helped (not a shaman, but the idea helped). Finally got off my ass and did this, fucking Oceanic ping :(
    +1

    Daeir
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cynlael said:
    Daeir said:
    So there's a few things I'd like to point out from my experience thus far.

    • If you have bad latency, script something to have swiftcursing done on the serverside via queuing instead of clientside looping. If my math is right, I was losing roughly 28% of my base dps to low curse speed, averaging at 1.3s~ per swiftcurse instead of the 1.0~ you can get using serverside. 
    Not gonna lie, this helped (not a shaman, but the idea helped). Finally got off my ass and did this, fucking Oceanic ping :(
    +1
    Right? You think ehhh, can't be THAT much of a bonus until you do it and reclaim like 5-14s per denizen and you sit there feeling like a fucking dumbass, haha.
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    I guess I was still just too used to pre-Battlerage changes, where things didn't take much to kill. Nowdays, if you don't crit often, you can expect to hit something 15-20+ times, sometimes more... .2-.4s per hit, adds up substantially over time if you bash a lot.

    edit: Also handling razing, too. No more spamming button enough that ping makes me hit into shield, and then raze right after the shield drops. So that's even more time regained.
      (my button had a if needraze then part to it, not using two buttons... but yeah, cq all -> queue raze -> continue queueing attacks, when mob shield's down, easy.)

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