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Shaman bashing DPS output?

DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
Shamans of the realm, unite!

No but seriously, I have a few issues with how the class bashes, and I'd like to get some feedback from others to help figure out what needs to be done to address these issues.

Long story short, I'm trying to burn for dragon. I've bashed from 91 to 93 in two days and I've observed a few things from this particularly heavy stint of bashing. My issues are as follows:

  • How do you deal with swiftcurse's base DPS inconsistency? If you roll a bad run on Aelkesh attunement procs, you are basically doing 20% less dps for that swiftcurse chain, and consuming more mana and more wp.
  • Even with Aelkesh attunement, the class uses an utterly incredible amount of willpower. One full run of Mirror Caves will take 48% of my wp with trans philosophy, megalith, and amulet of will active. The only solution I can think of to deal with this is to attune Daina, but you sacrifice either Marak or Ri'shen which makes you significantly squisher and impacts what you can fight realistically.
  • Cursing has extremely low base damage, reducing WSC damage to 20-40% of a mob's max health depending on its level. Under almost no circumstances can a Shaman 1 shot a mob like some of the other high damage classes, meaning that it generally takes a lot more luck (back to back crits required, which is assisted by the faster iteration speed of curses, in fairness) to quickly clear mobs. I have an l1 pendant, a glass lily buff always active while I bash, and a lucky sip available most of the time, and I still rarely get quick mob kills.
  • No raze aside from battlerage raze or hammer tattoo. A lesser issue, and we're definitely not the only class to have to deal with it. We do have recklessness, as well.
I don't really want to swap away from the class since I love its general utility and how it plays in group combat, but the bashing is really getting me down (compared to other classes I've played, it's pretty terrible overall, even an unbanded BM does more damage than an int specced, l1 collared shaman if you get unlucky with the aelkesh procs) and I'd really like to find some way of fixing it.

Any ideas?
PraxidesAustere
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Comments

  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Daeir first : what level are you, and which side of the mirror caves did you try? (The part with the ogres or the part with the fernbeasts)
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    93 currently, and all of it except the jade spider warrens. Didn't know there was a bit of it with ogres. Unless you mean the underground portion of the Vasnari Mountains, which has the morselus' or whatever they are.
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    93 currently, and all of it except the jade spider warrens. Didn't know there was a bit of it with ogres. Unless you mean the underground portion of the Vasnari Mountains, which has the morselus' or whatever they are.
    what's your clotting percentage at? as @Jukilian and I have established in comparing our willpower drain, he blew through 40% wp while I was still at 98% wp just because he was bashing a bleed-heavy area with clotting set to a slightly lower number

    but overall, what's the DPS of shamans at? the speed -should- make up for the lower damages
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I've got clotting set to start a 110 bleeding serverside at the moment.

    Haven't actually tested the dps on a falcon myself, but my own observations from group bashing is that while significantly faster, the increased speed does not offset the increased damage that others deal. Especially when crits come into play.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    I bashed to Dragon as a Jester then Priest, and once I got Dragon, I changed to Shaman.

    Recently tried some bashing with Shaman...not impressive. You pointed out all the issues right there.
    Praxides
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    okay yeah with that number clot wp drain shouldn't be a problem. Definitely sounds like it needs some looking at
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • AcknuAcknu Member Posts: 23
    Yea, these are issues I face as well. I typically try to bash with someone to help soak damage (I'm not arty'd) and lower my overall willpower usage. 

    As additional note, bashing can be pretty frustrating when you aren't high enough level to score critical hits with swiftcurse going. Low dps, high willpower use, typically only a single attunement, and issues with how squishy the class feels is a pretty big source of frustration with lower level shamans and sometimes a detriment from the class.


  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can bash for anywhere between an hour and half again that before I run out of willpower. I don't use clotting at all unless it gets up in the 300-400 range.

    You can look at Aelkesh in two ways. One way is your way. The other way is that it increases your damage output versus not having it. Go ahead, try bashing without it for a bit.

    People always get on my case when I mention arties, but the skull pendants help a bit and the level 1 is not expensive.

    We curse at .9-1.1 seconds. Swiftcurse takes 1 second to put up if you do it with 1 charge left. It doesn't really hinder your damage output that much.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    DaeirPraxides
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Had not actually tried swiftcursing before running out of charges, huh. That's only a 10~% reduction in total base dps if I'm vaguely on point.

    That's actually really significant, shit.

    Kind of glad I made this thread now.

    EDIT: Holy shit it does. Wow, that is a LOT better. Thanks a ton, Jonathin. I actually don't know if this is mathematically better or not but it definitely feels a lot better.
    Jonathin
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You are shaman bashing wrong. I can bash all day as a shaman, if you are low on WP just attune Aelkesh and Daina and it will go up while bashing, I did this all the time while getting to dragon. You probably just have low intellect, idk honestly, you are also trying to use marak or ri'shen for shit bashing. I would personally only use them on things that are actually a challenge for you and both together rather then with Aelkesh or Daina then switch to the other two and regain willpower for a while, managing invoke regeneration helps when doing that, at least for me. That's all the advice I can give, I also have a high amount of intellect so not sure if that helps me as well.
    Praxides
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,232 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Had not actually tried swiftcursing before running out of charges, huh. That's only a 10~% reduction in total base dps if I'm vaguely on point.

    how. ..I swear. . I feel like everyone in Targossas needs to start asking me for class tricks and tips. Tagging @Tesha randomly here. 
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    I'm not trying to use Marak/Ri'shen together, it's always Aelkesh+ something. Only ever use Marak when I've got berkana+algiz because to my knowledge, they don't stack or they lose value when stacking with either garon/ri'shen.

    I presume that because ri'shen should probably be level 2 regen to cover for berkana loss. Not entirely certain about garon since it's just physical instead of all damage like algiz is.

    Honestly, I'd never thought to try and see if swiftcurse was affected by its own buff.

    On that note, what attunements do people use when bashing harder stuff, out of curiosity?
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm pretty sure Ri'shen is a lvl 1 regen, I use invoke regeneration for the loss of the runes. As far as garon goes, I don't use him for hunting.
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I only ever use marak/daina and aelkesh. I've never had any problems from there.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think shaman is fine, offensively (haven't seen enough of new shaman to really judge defence or wp drain). With Aelkesh (and swiftcursing swiftcurse), shaman DPS should be a little better than blademaster in Arash (on average; it's a bit lower if Aelkesh never activates). And while it might be less appealing to have denizens survive multiple world-shattering criticals, it's a good thing overall because it means less damage being wasted. I'd much prefer taking 3 WSCs to kill something over WSCs being pointless because 16x damage is usually enough to finish them off.
    EldCooper
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I don't think Shaman battlerage generation takes into account swiftcurse, which puts Shaman at a disadvantage in general. That's probably the only problem with it, aside from not being able to tank worth anything.

    Garon seems bugged, at least vs players. Not sure if it works vs denizens.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Amranu said:
    I don't think Shaman battlerage generation takes into account swiftcurse, which puts Shaman at a disadvantage in general. That's probably the only problem with it, aside from not being able to tank worth anything.

    Garon seems bugged, at least vs players. Not sure if it works vs denizens.
    If rage gain didn't account for swiftcurse, it would be a massive buff, since you'd be getting the same amount of rage per attack, and more attacks per unit time. In any case, since rage gain seems to be normalized across the board based on actual attack speed after modifiers, if you're not averaging 2 rage per second off balance, you should bug it.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,771 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think he means that the amount of rage from curses doesn't factor in having to redef swiftcurse every X curses, so shaman rage gain is actually slightly lower than other classes.

    If they were getting non-swiftcurse rage on swiftcurse balance I doubt he'd be complaining about shaman being at a disadvantage.
    Acknu
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I don't even bash as Shaman, just something that I'd bring up that was relevant to the topic.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ah, yeah, that makes more sense.

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Definitely much better with the improved swiftcurse trick. Don't really have any complaints anymore.

    I too have wondered if garon is bugged on denizens, though.
    AchimrstPraxides
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    All of you should AB SPIRITLORE ARIUS and rejoice, for we no longer get stuck behind shields.

    And we can spec int diadem/qw now and do extremely respectable high-damage type DPS.

    And newer shamans will no longer be pidgeonholed into wasting lessons in Curses when they can get sick bashing damage AND utility from Spiritlore.
    PraxidesSkye
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:
    All of you should AB SPIRITLORE ARIUS and rejoice, for we no longer get stuck behind shields.

    And we can spec int diadem/qw now and do extremely respectable high-damage type DPS.

    And newer shamans will no longer be pidgeonholed into wasting lessons in Curses when they can get sick bashing damage AND utility from Spiritlore.
    You can't say things like that and not post what you're talking about.

    What the hell are you talking about?
    Achimrst
  • LothienLothien Montréal, QuébecMember Posts: 254 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    INT/Quick-witted spec Shaman? Go on... :open_mouth:
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Arius (Spiritlore)                            Known: Yes
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Syntax:            INVOKE ROAR <target>
    Extra Information: Attune effect: increased mana regeneration.

    Works on/against:  Adventurers and denizens
    Cooldown:          3.00 seconds of balance
    Resource:          100 mana
    Details:
    Once you have bound the spirit of Arius, The Druid, you will be able to
    channel the mighty power of the hydra to unleash a terrible roar at your
    opponent, disrupting their mental equilibrium.

    When targeted against denizens, it will do damage.

    Bypasses shield but uses equilibrium when used on denizens.
    DochithaPraxidesSkye
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    All of you should AB SPIRITLORE ARIUS and rejoice, for we no longer get stuck behind shields.

    And we can spec int diadem/qw now and do extremely respectable high-damage type DPS.

    And newer shamans will no longer be pidgeonholed into wasting lessons in Curses when they can get sick bashing damage AND utility from Spiritlore.
    quote the AB if you're going to tell people to rejoice about the AB :D 
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

    Tael
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Daeir said:
    Arius (Spiritlore)                            Known: Yes
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Syntax:            INVOKE ROAR <target>
    Extra Information: Attune effect: increased mana regeneration.

    Works on/against:  Adventurers and denizens
    Cooldown:          3.00 seconds of balance
    Resource:          100 mana
    Details:
    Once you have bound the spirit of Arius, The Druid, you will be able to
    channel the mighty power of the hydra to unleash a terrible roar at your
    opponent, disrupting their mental equilibrium.

    When targeted against denizens, it will do damage.

    Bypasses shield but uses equilibrium when used on denizens.
    And it does enough damage to be a worthwhile replacement for bleed? Or is the idea just that you'd use this while the denizen is shielded?

    That ab file is a trainwreck. "This ability does X. Unless you use it against denizens, then it does something totally different and bypasses shield for no clear reason. Also it uses a different kind of balance when you use it that way."

    This seems like a really random and kind of hacky way to add a shield bypass to shaman, but...okay I guess.

    Edit: Also, I find it really interesting that shaman was given a shieldbreak. I posted asking about shaman not having one a few months back and the answer was a very emphatic "we don't think every class should have a shield bypass in their skills", which eventually gave way to battlerage shield breaks. I wonder what prompted the reversal on that - especially after shaman already got a shield break through battlerage.
    PraxidesDochitha
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    It is inferior to swiftcurse bleeding from what I can tell, unless you are qw/diadem, in which case it is superior by a significant margin.

    My testing showed (14 int, l1 collar):

    Swiftcurse bleed: 242 dps 

    Roar: 749/3.5 = 214dps 

    Roar [diadem]: 749/3 = 249dps

    Roar: [diadem+qw] = 749/2.7 = 277dps

    Arius bypasses shield, it does not break it. Battlerage skills will still bounce off shield, you can just use Arius to deal damage in the meanwhile instead of sitting around like a dunce for 3-5s a mob if you don't have the rage to vulnerability.

    It is for all purposes an intents, a carbon copy of Shin burst with Spiritlore skill scaling.

    It also allows for int/eq spec shamans to have a bashing option, and addresses the issue early on where Shaman bashing is the among the worst in the game pre swiftcurse, formerly forcing younger players to into a very significant lesson investment to attain anything resembling "normal" bashing dps. The change was added probably more to address that part than anything else.

    They can now put points into Spiritlore instead.

    Really, early bashing pre swiftcurse is terrible.

    PraxidesTael
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Roar (Metamorphosis)                          Known: Yes
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Syntax:            HYDRA ROAR <target>
    Works on/against:  Adventurers
    Resource:          150 mana
    Details:
    The sheer power of your roar can knock those that hear it from their
    feet.
    That Shaman ability is clearly witchcraft. Druid's Hydra roar doesn't do that.

    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    PraxidesDochithaYae
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Arius was a better druid than you, scrub. Git gud.
    PraxidesSarathaiAchimrstShirszae
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