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Pockets

DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
With theft no longer something really at the fore, can we have the ability to sew pockets into outer garments like shirts, coats, so on?

That'd be swell.
AchimrstSkyeShimi
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Comments

  • NaverreNaverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Only if APPRAISE is altered to allow you to target an item in a person's inventory and be able to see the contents if it's a container.

    Theft has been nerfed hard enough, I don't want to have to guess which of the dozen items of clothing the person is keeping their gold and stuff in.
    PraxidesTael
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Naverre said:
    Only if APPRAISE is altered to allow you to target an item in a person's inventory and be able to see the contents if it's a container.

    Theft has been nerfed hard enough, I don't want to have to guess which of the dozen items of clothing the person is keeping their gold and stuff in.
    I mean, people can already keep their gold in a bajillion different containers.
    Huh. Neat.
  • NaverreNaverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ahmet said:
    Naverre said:
    Only if APPRAISE is altered to allow you to target an item in a person's inventory and be able to see the contents if it's a container.

    Theft has been nerfed hard enough, I don't want to have to guess which of the dozen items of clothing the person is keeping their gold and stuff in.
    I mean, people can already keep their gold in a bajillion different containers.
    Yes, but most of the time you can see those containers. A handful of people use containers-in-containers, but they're few and far between. And most people only carry one type of pack, or satchel, or pouch. With this change, suddenly people could (but not necessarily, you wouldn't actually know) be wearing half a dozen different containers, and the sudden increase in containers makes it harder on the thief. I agree, the number of containers a person can have makes it hard, but this change just makes it harder.

    It's a neat flavor thing, and I loved the shaman robes that had pockets back around the Vertani war, but theft is hard enough as it is. If something's going to be taken, I want something given.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Most of my crap is resetting anyway so theft isn't a problem for me but we are supposedly "holding" large quantities of items just on a normal basis. Example, how many vials do you have for just health!? Where are we holding those damn things I have weapons in my actual hands!

    I would love a pocket so I can stuff some things into one and still be able to use like the pebble to Meropis or similar things like that. It's not a big deal but it would be interesting.
    Shimi
  • BasileiosBasileios Member Posts: 49 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tael said:
    Honestly, it would be awesome if pickpocket could just go into containers.

    Then we could have pockets. And theft wouldn't be quite as terrible. And selfishness would actually be important (you couldn't just keep things in containers with simple triggers - which would also mean houses/cities wouldn't have to tell novices that they're required to learn how to make those triggers).

    Also, it's literally called pickpocket.
    Wait wait wait... You want pickpocket.. to go into containers.  Which means more everyone being forced to get that artie-backpack if they want to keep their gold safe..?  Brb, buying 5 backpacks and putting it in the 8th one that is tucked in the 3rd one.
    Achimrst
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,825 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can put gold in scabbards.

    Think outside the box people.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    Basileios said:
    Tael said:
    Honestly, it would be awesome if pickpocket could just go into containers.

    Then we could have pockets. And theft wouldn't be quite as terrible. And selfishness would actually be important (you couldn't just keep things in containers with simple triggers - which would also mean houses/cities wouldn't have to tell novices that they're required to learn how to make those triggers).

    Also, it's literally called pickpocket.
    Wait wait wait... You want pickpocket.. to go into containers.  Which means more everyone being forced to get that artie-backpack if they want to keep their gold safe..?  Brb, buying 5 backpacks and putting it in the 8th one that is tucked in the 3rd one.
    No, it means pickpocket stealing from artie backpacks too.

    So when you pickpocket someone, it pulls the gold from wherever they have it (similar to how the game now tracks the total gold in your possession rather than just the gold in your hands).

    If you want to keep your gold safe, put up selfishness. That's what it's for.

    Better yet, put it into a bank. That's what they're for.

    It's always been silly that with a tiny bit of scripting you can be totally immune to theft with no repercussions, limitations, or costs whatsoever. The only thing that made it less crazy was that old theft was so stupid that having a perfect defense available helped mitigate how awful it was. But it's way more silly now that pickpocketing is inherently limited.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with Tael. Theft has only ever consistently worked on people with poor anti-theft scripts.
  • KezKez Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Tael said:
    Honestly, it would be awesome if pickpocket could just go into containers.
    I am not okay with this! People carry enough stuff in their inventory as it is. There would be no point to even having containers if they could be picked from.

    Naverre said:
    Theft has been nerfed hard enough, I don't want to have to guess which of the dozen items of clothing the person is keeping their gold and stuff in.
    Containers show up when you look at someone now. They never did before, and people kept things in unexpected containers well before this change. Hell I knew someone who had a bra customised into a container.

    When I saw the topic I kind of rolled my eyes and went 'this again' but the arguments against it aren't actually concerns anymore. Theft may have gotten nerfed but thieves have never had an easier time of detecting containers than they do now, so the complaint of it being hard on thieves isn't justifiable.

    In terms of RP, backpacks can really mess up a character's look. I've gotten used to ignoring the backpack when trying to craft a look for a character, but it would be better if the container(s) could be a part of it.

    Plus, people wear way too much stuff! I'd love to be able to config what I see when I look at someone (outfit, containers, artefacts, et cetera). Getting off topic. Bye.
    Skye
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kez said:
    In terms of RP, backpacks can really mess up a character's look. I've gotten used to ignoring the backpack when trying to craft a look for a character, but it would be better if the container(s) could be a part of it.

    Plus, people wear way too much stuff! I'd love to be able to config what I see when I look at someone (outfit, containers, artefacts, et cetera). Getting off topic. Bye.
    Sigils and/or orbs of suppression can adjust what artifacts people see when they look at you, though admittedly that's on the target's end, rather than the targeter.

    I don't usually wear a whole lot besides shirt + pants + waterwalking-footwear, clothing wise. Or I'm dragonformed and nobody can tell anyway.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
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  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Kez said:
    Tael said:
    Honestly, it would be awesome if pickpocket could just go into containers.
    I am not okay with this! People carry enough stuff in their inventory as it is. There would be no point to even having containers if they could be picked from.
    That's the point of containers: not carrying a ton of stuff in your inventory and keeping things organised. The idea that people wouldn't use containers anymore if you could steal from them is pretty silly. People keep a ton of things in containers besides gold, sigils, letters, and other easily pickpocketed things. People keep multiple containers with them so they can organise things even more.

    There's no technical reason you have to use folders to organise most of your files on your computer, but people use them anyway because organisation is nice.

    Also, there's a hard limit on how many items you can have in your inventory.

    Also, in terms of RP, I think the idea is that the pockets and such in your clothes is your inventory. You're not carrying hundreds of things in your hands, that's just an abstraction for the various easy-to-reach places you keep them on your person - like pockets. 
    Kez said:
    When I saw the topic I kind of rolled my eyes and went 'this again' but the arguments against it aren't actually concerns anymore. Theft may have gotten nerfed but thieves have never had an easier time of detecting containers than they do now, so the complaint of it being hard on thieves isn't justifiable.
    That's pretty ridiculous. Theft is outrageously less lucrative than it was before. You can only steal a small subset of mostly worthless items and you only get a hard-coded percentage of the gold, complete with a chance to fail. The container situation got very slightly better in that you can actually see that containers now (and you're allowed to strip selfishness from someone who isn't using the built in system to keep it up), but virtually everything else about pickpocket is worse. And after they phased out pockets in clothing, it was pretty trivial to know all of the even remotely common containers in the game anyway, so adding that information wasn't much of a boon. Giving the average person access to even more possible containers, potentially any piece of clothing, would make pickpocket, which is already pretty bad, worse.

    More to the point, you seem to have significantly misunderstood the issue here. The thread is about players wanting pockets. They're not the ones saying pockets are too hard on thieves, that's one of the reasons the admin gave for why pockets stopped being a thing. I can't find the thread, but this has come up before, in at least one of the many threads over the years asking if we could have pockets again.
    Kez said:
    In terms of RP, backpacks can really mess up a character's look. I've gotten used to ignoring the backpack when trying to craft a look for a character, but it would be better if the container(s) could be a part of it.
    That's exactly the point. This thread is about asking to have pockets added back into the game (ideally via a tailouring option) so people won't necessarily need packs.

    The problem is that people (including admin) have brought up that more container diversity makes theft harder. That's not as bad now that you can tell whether things are containers, but it still certainly makes things harder. Even if you know that they're containers, if someone has pockets in their shirt and pants and they have a pack and a scabbard, theft against that person is harder than someone who has just the pack and scabbard.

    If you could pickpocket from containers, that wouldn't be an issue, and we'd maybe be allowed to have pockets again. And, on top of that, it would help deal with the fact that right now pickpocket is terrible, is geared toward stealing from lowbies who don't know how to make the relevant triggers, is one of the only things that prompts cities and houses to require all novices to start understanding scripting, is one of the only things that has an absolute defense if you can write a simple script, and is already addressed by actual game mechanics, namely selfishness and banks.
  • KezKez Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Tael said:
    Kez said:
    Tael said:
    Honestly, it would be awesome if pickpocket could just go into containers.
    I am not okay with this! People carry enough stuff in their inventory as it is. There would be no point to even having containers if they could be picked from.
    I knew that was going to get picked at but I had too much of a headache to elaborate so I hoped people would accept that I meant they would have no point as relevant to the topic I was discussing (theft).

    I was not arguing against pockets. I was arguing against the claim that they would be OP antitheft.

    I am aware that it got harder to take everything someone owns. I believe this was intentional. For this reason, I do not think the answer is to make it impossible to avoid getting robbed even while paying attention.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,737 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Tael "Also, there's a hard limit on how many items you can have in your inventory."

    This is the first time I've ever heard that claim being made. Any evidence that actually supports it?

    Selfishness is a pain in the ass, I would not be happy with having to use it to have any protection at all.
    Kyrra
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Kez said:
    Tael said:
    Kez said:
    Tael said:
    Honestly, it would be awesome if pickpocket could just go into containers.
    I am not okay with this! People carry enough stuff in their inventory as it is. There would be no point to even having containers if they could be picked from.
    I knew that was going to get picked at but I had too much of a headache to elaborate so I hoped people would accept that I meant they would have no point as relevant to the topic I was discussing (theft).

    I was not arguing against pockets. I was arguing against the claim that they would be OP antitheft.

    I am aware that it got harder to take everything someone owns. I believe this was intentional. For this reason, I do not think the answer is to make it impossible to avoid getting robbed even while paying attention.
    I'm not sure why you would hope people would read it that way. It seemed pretty clear that you were saying that no one would use containers - why would you be saying "There would be no point to even having containers to help protect from theft if they didn't protect from theft"? That would be a pretty weird thing to point out.

    And, again, the admin have mentioned that they cause problems for theft. And absolutely no one said they would be "OP antitheft", they just said they would make it harder, which they would, which is especially problematic since pickpocketing is already really hard and not very rewarding.

    As for the last part, you seem to have missed the two obvious defenses against theft: selfishness and banks. Far from it being impossible to avoid getting robbed even while paying attention, those two things make being robbed very nearly impossible, even when you aren't paying attention. For a small fee, banks make robbery impossible. That's a great design because it means you can either risk being stolen from and losing a lot of gold or pay a little gold to not lose any of the rest of it. Right now, banks are useless if you can handle making a single trigger. And selfishness has even less of a cost to you - just put it in the serverside defences that everyone has access to and you can't be stolen from, except for the brief periods where you bring it down to drop something, give something away, or throw something. So selfishness offers small windows of opportunity and requires you to remember to put it back up and gives you a slight inconvenience. All of those things are good. They make theft an actual mechanic with defences and attendant costs rather than just a noob trap where newbies who don't know how to make a trigger can be preyed upon and as soon as anyone learns, they're totally immune for free.

    Compare that to the current situation where you can sit afk forever and, so long as you set up a single trigger, it is literally impossible to rob you.

    I think the intention was to make it harder to take everything someone owns. But that doesn't mean it should be completely impossible to take anything anyone owns because they copy-pasted a single trigger (otherwise why would the skill exist?).

    @Antonius:
    Selfishness being a pain in the ass is the point. If you can be immune to theft for free, with no cost and no pain at all, then theft is pointless - it can only function as a noob trap. If you don't want to have to deal with selfishness or theft, you should ask to see theft removed. So long as theft remains a mechanic in the game, it shouldn't exist only to part newbies from their gold.

    I'm pretty sure there at least used to be a cap. I don't have enough items to hit it anymore whether it still exists or not (and I don't think I've ever had enough items to hit it either). Also, I think it might be by type of item, so 120 of the same vials only count as "one item", and some item types (like corpses) might be exempted. I've definitely heard people mention a cap before, though I don't remember what number was given other than that it was fairly high.
    Trevize
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2015
    I've never hit an item cap so I don't know if that's a real issue, but I'm fully in favor of pickpocket working on containers, and opening up pockets on clothing types.

    Selfishness already allows you to keep everything in your inventory, and personally, I will use containers for RP reasons and sorting. Pockets would be very nice for that.

    I do wish the selfishness message didn't look so silly! But it is super easy to manage, I've used it for ages and never considered it to be a pain.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
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  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The issue with your stance is that there'd essentially be no way to stop pickpocketting. Selfishness is not an adequate defense. Any thief who's developed appropriate reflexes can steal through selfishness with a very high success rate, it's just a ping battle. If things changed the way you want them to, there would be very little you could do to actually protect yourself.

    Right now, there are many things players can do to stop theft, and even when a pickpocket does succeed, it's not crippling to the victim. That's how it should be. Players do not exist for thieves' benefit. Theft exists as a way to make trouble, like raiding or shrine wars. It's a roleplay tool, not a steady source of income.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    PraxidesKezHellen
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh, and on a different note, we can give Xorans inbuilt pockets. Skin pockets. Because they're lizards.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 4,920 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You're gross.
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    Achimrst
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's a legitimate racial advantage, Melodie. Don't hate on skin pockets.
    Acknu
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Perhaps a compromise then.

    Make it so clothing can have pockets. For the purpose of your inventory/taking/removing it acts like a container for you.

    For theft, it shows the items in your pockets on APPRAISE and they can be stolen as if they are in your inventory itself.

    Those that prefer the current method can just not use pockets. Those that prefer pockets and less safety than containers can then use them.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just make pockets like that top hat artie. Then you can stuff it with random crap and they can hope for the best!
  • JonathinJonathin Retirement hole.Member Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No to pickpocket going into my dskin pack. The whole reason I bought it was to prevent theft. The added space is just a bonus.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Aerek said:
    The issue with your stance is that there'd essentially be no way to stop pickpocketting. Selfishness is not an adequate defense. Any thief who's developed appropriate reflexes can steal through selfishness with a very high success rate, it's just a ping battle. If things changed the way you want them to, there would be very little you could do to actually protect yourself.

    Right now, there are many things players can do to stop theft, and even when a pickpocket does succeed, it's not crippling to the victim. That's how it should be. Players do not exist for thieves' benefit. Theft exists as a way to make trouble, like raiding or shrine wars. It's a roleplay tool, not a steady source of income.
    That sounds like the timing of pickpocket/selfishness needs to be slightly adjusted.

    That would still be better than being 100% immune to theft because you made a single trigger that you no longer need to ever worry about again. That isn't how it should be.

    Players don't exist for theives' benefit, but the current system exists in such a state where pretty much the only people who can be stolen from are newbies and everyone else is completely immune without so much as having to slightly inconvenience themself. That's not a good situation.

    I'm also really curious why people are buying dragonskin packs to prevent theft when a simple trigger achieves the exact same thing.
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Tael For disconnects.
  • JonathinJonathin Retirement hole.Member Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Tael because I don't want to have to rely on triggers. If I'm paying attention, I can close it and it makes me a less attractive target.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • SiodhachanSiodhachan Washington, USAMember Posts: 20 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ability should lift random items/gold from pockets. It is called pickpocket, not pickgoldfromhand.
    The earth is so good to me;
    So giving and so kind.
    PraxidesTael
  • EthoasEthoas Member Posts: 47 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aerek said:
    The issue with your stance is that there'd essentially be no way to stop pickpocketting. Selfishness is not an adequate defense. Any thief who's developed appropriate reflexes can steal through selfishness with a very high success rate.
    False.

    The chances of a sucessful pickpocket, regardless of dealing with selfishness are laughable, and anyone keeping gold in a container inside another container is immune to gold theft, regardless of selfishness, with the exception being those who are totally AFK

    I never have it up and no one is getting my gold.

    Tl:dr: the only people being robbed anything of value do not protect themselves in even the slightest way and are totally AFK. Period.

    Pickpocket is useless, remove it or rework it, again.

    But perhaps do the former, because the whining and complaints and tears are real serious, even in its current state, when the subject of buffing it again comes up.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes, someone with gold inside multiple containers is currently safe. My comment is in reference to the idea of Pickpocketing stealing gold from within containers, effectively treating everyone the same as if they had loose gold out in their inventory. In that instance, Pickpocketing would be trivial.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • EthoasEthoas Member Posts: 47 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2015
    Aerek said:
    Yes, someone with gold inside multiple containers is currently safe. My comment is in reference to the idea of Pickpocketing stealing gold from within containers, effectively treating everyone the same as if they had loose gold out in their inventory. In that instance, Pickpocketing would be trivial.


    Ah, right. Well, yeah--having pickpocket by-pass containers for free would be silly, if only in the instances of robbing afk people (since you're only likely to get off one pickpocket by-pass against someone who's there or semi-paying attention).

    IMO, remove pickpocket entirely and replace it with something else, or re-work it, because currently, it's as useless as selfishness.
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