Classes & Combat Survivability/Offense

Selven

Hi! I have read a lot of info about PvE survivability with damage reduction and health pools and sipping, but I am a little confused with the PvP side of things. Can anyone perhaps sum it up for me what is considered good in general (like, parrying or dodging etc.) and how classes fare in this department?

Also, what is needed in offense from a class? I know about terms like preping limbs and afflicting, but how important are things like hindering or shooting and investment in non-class skills to gain an edge for various classes? (like weaponry/riding) I'm mostly interested in 1v1, but raid info will also help a lot.  

Ernam

Sounds like you're ready to be the world's next apostate.

Insane amounts of damage reduction, no benefit from offensive artefacts, little/no need for weaponry or riding, fairly easy, and relatively low lesson investment - very good at bashing, PVP, raids.

Other cheap option is Monk.  Cheap, powerful, versatile, but low skill cap and relatively weak endgame.

Selven

Not really interested in the "cheap" part, rather I was wondering about a most "self-sustained" class? Not sure how to put it exactly... For example I think I read somewhere that you need weaponry with Alchemist, or for example riding as Apostate to help with Vivisect? Even if that is not true, what I meant is which classes can get the most out of their own skillset towards offense and towards defense (evasion, running, tankiness etc.).   

Ernam

Well, currently, BM is the god class.  It has the best offense, the best defense, and for no apparent reason, has about 25 other random amazing abilities that nobody can figure out why they needed, like Phoenix, Health Trans, Evade, Mindnet, and Fitness.  It's relatively simple too, if you're able to keep track of limb damage and afflictions.

Selven

Too bad BM is really bad at bashing then, cause that's what I've read + some personal experience with an alt in the past.  

From the caster-like classes Apostate seems great, but what about Alchemist/Magi? Are they any good regarding the previous questions? Btw, how important is Vision as a skill?

Seftin

If you want I can take the time to do a breakdown of every class?

Selven

That would be very interesting, indeed, if and when you had the time! No rush, though!  

Ernam

BM is not "bad" at bashing.  No class with Evade and Mindnet could ever be bad at bashing.  You could bash UW/Annwyn with ZERO risk of death with only very basic combat knowledge.  Even if your DPS is a little lower, you'll be getting twice as much exp per time as the majority of other classes who have to factor in death as a possible consequence.

Magi is also pretty good, particularly for beginners, as it competes for the "most simple class" title with monk.

Alchemist is kinda meh.  It has huge affliction pressure, with pretty low scores in all other areas.  Requires a -lot- of combat theory knowledge to achieve even the slightest success.

Eld

Ernam said:

BM is not "bad" at bashing.  No class with Evade and Mindnet could ever be bad at bashing.  You could bash UW/Annwyn with ZERO risk of death with only very basic combat knowledge.  Even if your DPS is a little lower, you'll be getting twice as much exp per time as the majority of other classes who have to factor in death as a possible consequence.

Except to, y'know, the denizens. Need to be pretty high level and/or pretty artied to make bashing DKs/sidhe/unsidhe at all efficient. Pretty absurd to judge how good a class is for bashing based off two high-level areas, in any case.

That said, blademaster bashing seems to be fine at the moment (though, admittedly, I haven't done much of it since the bashing changes). It is much worse than it used to be, which I think is part of why people complain about it, but that's basically complaining that it went from "really, really strong" to "ok". Drawslash damage was initially scaled back more than it should have been in the recent changes to normalize DPS across classes, but it seems to have been adjusted back up a bit since then, so DPS should be comparable to other classes. Stances add versatility, letting you trade some offense for extra defense or vice versa, depending on what you're fighting. It's generally not very tanky unless you're using Mir, which sacrifices a lot of DPS for the extra defense, but you've got a decently fast attack (good for crits and for running if needed), and plenty of situationally useful abilities, such as Mindnet and Evade, as Ernam mentioned.

Seth

Sylvan hunting is pretty good. The only negative is willpower drain but thats why you have Grove rain/harvest hive. Need I say reflections?! Plus a free lyre with grove barrier. Plus you're pretty tanky. The only real non-skill class you would need is targetting in weaponry.

Ernam

Eld said:

Ernam said:

BM is not "bad" at bashing.  No class with Evade and Mindnet could ever be bad at bashing.  You could bash UW/Annwyn with ZERO risk of death with only very basic combat knowledge.  Even if your DPS is a little lower, you'll be getting twice as much exp per time as the majority of other classes who have to factor in death as a possible consequence.

Except to, y'know, the denizens. Need to be pretty high level and/or pretty artied to make bashing DKs/sidhe/unsidhe at all efficient. Pretty absurd to judge how good a class is for bashing based off two high-level areas, in any case.

That said, blademaster bashing seems to be fine at the moment (though, admittedly, I haven't done much of it since the bashing changes). It is much worse than it used to be, which I think is part of why people complain about it, but that's basically complaining that it went from "really, really strong" to "ok". Drawslash damage was initially scaled back more than it should have been in the recent changes to normalize DPS across classes, but it seems to have been adjusted back up a bit since then, so DPS should be comparable to other classes. Stances add versatility, letting you trade some offense for extra defense or vice versa, depending on what you're fighting. It's generally not very tanky unless you're using Mir, which sacrifices a lot of DPS for the extra defense, but you've got a decently fast attack (good for crits and for running if needed), and plenty of situationally useful abilities, such as Mindnet and Evade, as Ernam mentioned.

UW and Annwyn are not "high level" bashing areas, although the courts and DK sub-areas can be.  The UW littles and smaller creatures in Annwyn are very easy and can be done as low as level 30-40, and are incredibly good experience.

Cooper

Yeah, gonna have to call bullshit on this one Ernam. You can't do the smaller creatures very easily as a level 30-40 character. They will kill you in 2-4 hits. As a level 105, mid artied Infernal, the "very easy" stuff in Annwyn and UW still makes me sip frequently.

Not to mention the whole if you're level 30-40 any PKer can come down and kill you in a few seconds. Veils hide mindnet, and even with evade, a full damage attack from most any class + the damage from what you're bashing = instant death. (Remember, you said it was very easy for a level 30 character to bash there. Level 30 characters generally have under 1.5k health.).

Don't spew bullshit.

Eld

Sure, no argument there, except that I wouldn't bother with either of them below 60 or so, barring a significant artefact investment. But they're not so superlative as to be the sole basis for judging hunting ability, which was the broader point. Anyway, we agree that blademaster bashing isn't bad, no need to derail any further.

Ernam

Cooper said:

Yeah, gonna have to call bullshit on this one Ernam. You can't do the smaller creatures very easily as a level 30-40 character. They will kill you in 2-4 hits. As a level 105, mid artied Infernal, the "very easy" stuff in Annwyn and UW still makes me sip frequently.

Not to mention the whole if you're level 30-40 any PKer can come down and kill you in a few seconds. Veils hide mindnet, and even with evade, a full damage attack from most any class + the damage from what you're bashing = instant death. (Remember, you said it was very easy for a level 30 character to bash there. Level 30 characters generally have under 1.5k health.).

Don't spew bullshit.

I said that some of the creatures are easy, so much so that level 30-40 characters can bash them.  Having done this myself on 4-5 characters (with no artefacts), it is not bullshit.

Cooper

Fell for a wording change edit while composing my post.

I'll be waiting for your standard level 30 who can easily bash UW and Annwyn "little stuff" logs.

With trans all skills, fullplate, putrefaction (as tanky as you can get), the "little stuff" in UW and Annwyn hits me from 500-1200 every 2 (some attacks 3 , rough estimates) seconds. Mob damage doesn't scale with health. Unartied, level 30 characters cannot take that sort of damage. They also won't have trans avoidance, fullplate, or putrefaction.

Edit: fell for another on this post. Do you ever not edit your posts after someone responds to you?

Ernam

Cooper said:

Unartied, level 30 characters cannot take that sort of damage. They also won't have trans avoidance, fullplate, or putrefaction.

 
Both of these assertions are simply false in many cases, particularly given that any level 30-40 character is almost certainly an alt, and would know to use runes & other buffs when power-bashing UW/annwyn (which I've used to put half a dozen characters up to level 80 for testing).

Ernam

Cooper said:

Edit: fell for another on this post. Do you ever not edit your posts after someone responds to you?

I edited a typo.  Please stick to the topic at hand, the terms of you ignoring Ignore are pretty clear.

Kensei

Well, whatever the case, as a BM I find that I can be versatile at hunting thanks to the stances. You just have to learn what you should use against specific enemies depending on your health etc. Killing speed is slow even in Arash, even for easy low level mobs, even in 16 Strength spec, but I am comparing that to my excellent experiences as full con Knight (much, much faster even in sword+shield). I do not know how other classes fare compared to Knight so I cannot compare BLM to them (e.g., casters like Magi/Apostate/Alchemist).

As for combat, I'm trying to remember the tactics still regarding offense (remember missing a lot and having hard time breaking high health/artied/avoidance-dex targets), but defense I find amazing. Now if only I didn't get these lag spikes and die to easy mobs during hunting, or adventurers, while trying to reconnect.  

Sena

Kensei said:

I do not know how other classes fare compared to Knight so I cannot compare BLM to them (e.g., casters like Magi/Apostate/Alchemist).

Alchemist, apostate, bard, druid, jester (without an artefact blackjack), magi, monk, occultist, priest (without an artefact mace), sentinel, serpent, shaman, and sylvan all have about the same DPS as blademaster in Sanya (the second best stance for offence). There are some slight differences in DPS (no more than +/- 10%, most are a lot closer), and big differences in speed, but for the most part they're all pretty similar in terms of offensive potential.

It's mostly only knights (and possibly only certain specs), priests with artefact maces, jesters with artefact blackjacks, and fully artied serpents (L3 lash and 19 dex) that are a lot better than everyone else (in terms of killing speed at least).

Selven

Oh well, Knights ftw for hunting then (unless your credit card can support arties xD ). But I'm mostly concerned with combat side of things. I think Knights have some hindering, and survivability thanks to armor, and for offense it varies with the new changes and specs etc. Jester, for some reason, I could never take seriously, although they seem like a very fun class!

Anyway, I'm liking magi atm though (despite low mana issues), but I'm a Horkval and it certainly is OK for bashing now, though I can't tell yet how good in tankiness it is compared to other classes because I dont have diamond skin yet...  Will I be bad in combat as horkval? Also, I know survival is nice for focus/restore/tumble etc., but does Vision help any for combat or could I avoid it?

Jovolo

You could completely avoid Vision. It's entirely unimportant, just a useful utility to have like most other skills such as Riding, Avoidance, Weaponry, etc. Survival itself isn't even really necessary as such, as long as you have: Tumble, Focus, Metawake and Clotting, you're more than fine. Magi survivability is decent. Aerial bypasses room hindrance if you need an escape (gravehands, piety, tentacles, pinshot, wildgrowth), diamond skin and stone skin are innate cutting/blunt resistances for the class. Reflections are still a useful ability and essentially counter several classes if used correctly, and bloodboil is a potent active curing ability. They're good both unartied, and have the highest damage output in the game once you add artefacts into the mix - this is an undisputed fact amongst the majority of people. Horkval is decent for Magi, because they aren't allowed to wear armour. This means the resistances granted by racial stats (cutting/blunt resistances) go further than it would with other classes that can wear armour because redundancy can occur. 

Magi is a solid class, although unfortunately I think you now need three class skills to participate in combat rather than two, thanks to the tradeskill change but that's the state of pretty much all but very few classes nowadays. I would prioritise Elementalism>Crystalism/Their new third skill>Survival to Clotting>Riding to Skilled>Weaponry to Envenom>Avoidance>finish survival>finish weaponry>buy artefacts.

Tharvis

Selven said:

Oh well, Knights ftw for hunting then (unless your credit card can support arties xD ). But I'm mostly concerned with combat side of things. I think Knights have some hindering, and survivability thanks to armor, and for offense it varies with the new changes and specs etc. Jester, for some reason, I could never take seriously, although they seem like a very fun class!

Anyway, I'm liking magi atm though (despite low mana issues), but I'm a Horkval and it certainly is OK for bashing now, though I can't tell yet how good in tankiness it is compared to other classes because I dont have diamond skin yet...  Will I be bad in combat as horkval? Also, I know survival is nice for focus/restore/tumble etc., but does Vision help any for combat or could I avoid it?

Low mana will fix itself gradually as you level up @Selven, though you might end up feeling the slightly lower Int in the long run, in terms of general damage and willpower. Though I am of the impression that the horkval natural armour does synchronise nicely with diamond and stoneskin

Selven

Oh well, there's always the free reincarnation into Grook in case Horkval doesn't work!  

While waiting for Seftin's answer when he gets the time, a quick question related to Knight bashing: after the changes have been live for some time now, is there any data on bashing for the various specs? I already read a bit about their combat options and they all look interesting, more interesting than the old dual-wield toothpick thingy I remember from way back.  

Sena

Sword and Shield spec has about 90% higher base (trans, 12 str, stock longsword/buckler, no nimble) bashing damage than non-knight classes. More specifically, 14 of the 17 classes (everyone except knights) has a base DPS of around 150 (can be as low as 130 or as high as 170, but most are closer to 150). Sword and Shield knights are about 280 (or about 300 for runewardens with jera, or about 310 for paladins with inspiration).

In fact, 12 str unartied SnB knights without nimble are already better than unartied dragons. With 13 str and nimble, they're better than artied dragons.

I don't know about the other specs yet.

Selven

Oh, wow!  Would love some data on DB or 2H but this was helpful, too! Double flails should hurt the poor denizens a lot I wager, as would a big hammer!  

Kafziel

Cooper said:

I'll be waiting for your standard level 30 who can easily bash UW and Annwyn "little stuff" logs.

http://pastebin.com/8iWZXdH8.

Never went below full until the very end.

Ernam

Selven said:

[stuff]

Hey you, you can't just come in here and steal my icon, even if it's the most generic icon possible!      Don't get eyes on Shecks' either!

Aurom

Kafziel said:

Cooper said:

I'll be waiting for your standard level 30 who can easily bash UW and Annwyn "little stuff" logs.

http://pastebin.com/8iWZXdH8.

Never went below full until the very end.

BAAHAHAHAHA, THAT IS THE WHACKEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN