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Lowering the barrier of entry to Seafaring

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  • ZulahZulah Member Posts: 776 @ - Epic Achaean
    Penwize said:
     ship stasis
    Thank you. I've been dropping that line for 3 years. About time someone used it in a sentence.
    Sylvance
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Penwize said:
    Kinilan said:
    The problem with that Sena is that it takes out all the risk of seafaring. See a hostile ship and token away. You already paid for the ship so no big loss. Pretty much every city and house has ships for their members to use. If people have a hang up over using them and getting them damaged in some way that's their issue, not the systems.

    Plus PoM charges far less than 50k to leave you alone for a day.
    I don't know, if the system is causing people to get hung up over potentially getting sunk, that IS the system's issue.  We need more people on the oceans, not less.

    Though honestly if I were to prioritize what I'd like to see in seafaring to encourage people to sail more, I don't think lower cost ships would be on my list.  I think ship stasis would be the first and foremost on my list.  Because of seafaring's time requirement, and the nature of real life, sometimes you just have to drop what you're doing and leave for a while.  Seafaring is not conducive to that at all, compared to everything else in Achaea that is.
    The amount of rooms in which a ship could do this without another vessel/creature being nearby would have to be moderately large imo, otherwise it might be easily abused. Maybe also adding in a time delay and the same requirements for boarding/journal, etc before it can be completed ( not sure if Zulah already mentioned those).


  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,607 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wouldn't say it'd need special requirements - keep it the same as everything else. If you remain out of combat for 60 seconds, you're fine.

    ShirszaeJonners
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Silas said:
    I wouldn't say it'd need special requirements - keep it the same as everything else. If you remain out of combat for 60 seconds, you're fine.
    Entering journal still requires you to be at full health/mana to do that, doesn't it? Seems like a reasonable requirement. Same requirement for boarding a ship as well.


  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sena said:
    If people are so hesitant to use ships belonging to other players, and they need a ship just to get some experience with sailing, why not have a built-in ship rental system instead of adding a cheaper ship class? Have Maelstrom (or some other/new denizen, or just make it a general harbour command in man-made harbours) offer windcutters for rent for 50k per Achaean month. No need to worry about damaging/sinking another player's ship then, and you can try out sailing without such a large initial investment. It's also not practical for easy access to deepsea fishing, because it would take you hours of fishing every day just to break even.
    Hmm. I do quite like the idea of renting a ship.
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  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The barrier to entry is a marque and the Seafaring skill. You don't need your own ship. I can agree with lowering those entry requirements, down from 300cr of lessons, but I don't think you actually need Trans Seafaring to have enough abilities to adequately sail a ship and fire weapons.

    If you want to encourage more people to seafare, then come up with a mechanism for large-scale ocean combat: naval battles, seamonster fights. Organisations will recruit their own members out of need for more people to reload and shoot weapons. People will join in because ship battles are totes fun - if and when they ever happen. All the mechanics are in place for ship battles, they just need a reason to occur, some direction, context, something to fight over (beyond "we're pirates :ar! ", one-off events, and extremely vague territory disputes).
    image
    EldTarausKresslackSybilla
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,298 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ... something to fight over (beyond "we're pirates :ar! ", one-off events, and extremely vague territory disputes).
    How about "We're pirates AND we claim all this territory!"? Eh? Eeeeeh?
  • KyrraKyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,924 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Don't you automatically get a marque if you buy a ship before completing one?
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    SybillaJonnersAnaidiana
  • TarausTaraus The Gypsy WindMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The barrier to entry is a marque and the Seafaring skill. 
    ^^ And that's a pretty low barrier as is.

    If you're really interested in something, and you want it, you have to work for it. Getting a fully attested marque is super easy, especially when you consider half of the harbours can be accessed from the mainland. Not only that, but it opens up a huge avenue for RP potential - learning the ropes and how to sail (both in a conceptual and mechanical sense) from a knowledgeable captain.

    You don't HAVE to own your own ship to sail -  you need a friend with a boat, or an org with a boat. Most cities, houses AND orders already have boats that are just sitting in harbours, and/or drydocked. I sort of cringe internally at the prospect of new vessels commissioned when there are already so many sitting and rotting. If you're going to put the time, effort and gold into getting a ship sail-worthy, then doesn't it make slightly more sense to put it into a vessel that you know will still be used and enjoyed when/if you decide you're 1) done with sailing or 2) done with Achaea?

    SybillaReihaneh
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,402 Achaean staff
    I really want to personally dive into ships and figure out what I think needs changing to make the whole system better. However, that's a big project and I can't see us having time to put any real work into ships for up to a year.
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,298 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    I really want to personally dive into ships and figure out what I think needs changing to make the whole system better. However, that's a big project and I can't see us having time to put any real work into ships for up to a year.
    We've been waiting over three years for someone to look at seafaring. We can wait one more.
    Kresslack
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Who knows, maybe I'll have a chance to look at it some and make some tweaks between now and then but I suspect seafaring is in need of a bit of a structural overhaul, which just requires a lot of time and resources.
    I'm very much looking forward to this, whenever it happens. You guys have attentetive and quickly address any actual impacting issues that arise, so I've no complaints about having to wait a bit longer for a big change like that. 


  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    I really want to personally dive into ships and figure out what I think needs changing to make the whole system better. However, that's a big project and I can't see us having time to put any real work into ships for up to a year.
    I don't believe Seafaring needs a lot. Ships certainly don't need an overhaul or redesign. Everything for ships to fight is in place and it all works. There's depth and strategy to ship vs ship, naval battles scale well if multiple ships are involved. People just need an incentive to fight.

    IMO the system would also benefit from more engaging PVE (AI seamonsters) in semi-predictable areas, as more people on the sea = more targets for pirates, and more pirates = more pirate hunters. That is secondary though and may not necessarily work out as planned.
    Kinilan said:
    ... something to fight over (beyond "we're pirates :ar! ", one-off events, and extremely vague territory disputes).
    How about "We're pirates AND we claim all this territory!"? Eh? Eeeeeh?
    They need a 'condescending platitude' or 'sadshake' icon to vote on posts with.
    image
    SilasSylvance
  • ZulahZulah Member Posts: 776 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Who knows, maybe I'll have a chance to look at it some and make some tweaks between now and then but I suspect seafaring is in need of a bit of a structural overhaul, which just requires a lot of time and resources.
    Thanks for hearing us! Its got great potential. I've looked through countless "Ship suggestion" posts dating back to 2010. There are so many good ideas and some of them would be both easy and are necessary. Even just some little tweaks that are long overdue (Weapon balance so one weapon isn't a machine gun with 6 players - grappling having a cooldown after being disengaged so you can't trigger grapple and essentially perma grapple a ship)
    SkyeAnaidiana
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Zulah said:
    grappling having a cooldown after being disengaged so you can't trigger grapple and essentially perma grapple a ship)
    I'd kinda like to see this work with ungrappling too, to where people can't spam disengage to keep avoiding grapple attempts. 


  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How about on the "drifts to the east" proc, it flips your raft and you drown.

    +1
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Trevize
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,330 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    I really want to personally dive into ships and figure out what I think needs changing to make the whole system better. However, that's a big project and I can't see us having time to put any real work into ships for up to a year.
    I don't believe Seafaring needs a lot. Ships certainly don't need an overhaul or redesign. Everything for ships to fight is in place and it all works. There's depth and strategy to ship vs ship, naval battles scale well if multiple ships are involved. People just need an incentive to fight.

    IMO the system would also benefit from more engaging PVE (AI seamonsters) in semi-predictable areas, as more people on the sea = more targets for pirates, and more pirates = more pirate hunters. That is secondary though and may not necessarily work out as planned.
    Unfortunately, seafaring actually does need quite a bit on the combat side because right now (as pretty much all of us have been saying), it's geared too much in favour of the defending ship. No, this isn't particularly a bad thing considering the amount of time and resources that go into seafaring. However, it makes it extremely stale and frustrating for two captains who actually want to fight their ships against one another when they can't land but one or two shots out of ten while both ships are moving.

    On top of that, it's rather easy to avoid being forced to stop. So easy, in fact, that Kinilan, The Gypsy Wind, and I all sailed around one another in circles until we got tired of it and sailed home. 

    I posted an idea on one of the old forum incarnations about simply increasing the returns on (weaponaiming + weapons rank) - sea weather state, ship speed, wind speed, etc. Which in calm seas with calm winds would increase accuracy to somewhere around 50% for two moving ships at moderate range. I think that it would at least make ship combat more fun and would increase the need for ship spells to actually be used, rather than see who can just pour out more fire.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
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    Blujixapug
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I am rather fond of the concept behind Lusternia's aethercraft PvE and PvP ship combat. Maybe we can implement it somewhat in Achaea's seafaring system. I would love to be able to use more of my seafaring skills on sea monsters other than just.. Load ballista with dart, fire dart (dir). It might perhaps make more people invest more time and gold and interest in seafaring/ship combat.
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    KresslackSylvance
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ruth said:
    I am rather fond of the concept behind Lusternia's aethercraft PvE and PvP ship combat. Maybe we can implement it somewhat in Achaea's seafaring system. I would love to be able to use more of my seafaring skills on sea monsters other than just.. Load ballista with dart, fire dart (dir). It might perhaps make more people invest more time and gold and interest in seafaring/ship combat.
    I have to admit, it's not what I'd consider perfect, but I did enjoy it.
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  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,819 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Penwize said:

    Kinilan said:
    You'd think that, but no. Auto-fishers get away with a lot of shit. There used to be bullkelp that would crawl onto a ship and attack people fishing but like sea monsters it's not part of the system. An Imm has to wind one up and let it go.
    This should be an automatic feature of the oceans.  Random chance based on how long a ship's been anchored, ship get accosted by some mob.  Could just be strong denizens that board the ship or something, really.  Could actually make fishing interesting too, if only for a break from the monotony.
    Quit asking for more bashing areas. You have a problem. :(

    Reihaneh
  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,558 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Problem ... or solution?
    ReihanehJonners
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,540 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I find ships to be a detriment to the game in their current guise. They promote a more anti-social element of people disappearing, together with the cost of starting out and having areas which you can only get to using a ship. I like the fact I can walk to Meropis, ok, so it takes time and is a pita, but at least it gives me the choice of walking or sailing (bloody pebble aside)

    Those who enjoy sailing and who are immersed in it are few and far between and Penwize only does it to get to bashing areas. imho it made the whole of Achaea a little -to- big which has caused the player base to thin out a little across those areas.
    image
    Hasar
  • ReihanehReihaneh Member Posts: 51 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I definitely see Sobriquet's point...honestly, Reih (and I) tend to use Seafaring and fishing to get away from people and de-stress, not to interact. Buying a ship was one of the best decisions I ever made, in or out of character. But in some ways it does contribute to some of us being anti-social. Similar to solitary bashing, but with waaaaaay more ease - not something I personally want to change, but I can see how it has a larger impact on the game.

    The way entry into Seafaring is done now does encourage player interaction by getting people to learn from one another and at the bare minimum, interact within their house/city to meet the requirements necessary to use org ships. So I don't find the cost of Windcutters that much of a barrier, and along the same line, for younger players, it's a good way to get to know other people in your org if it's done well.

    Org-wide seafaring events like marque runs, group fishing trips, etc. have been some of the most enjoyable interactive RP experiences for me.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    My problem with seafaring is it takes so long to get anywhere. You want to go out on a boat, you have to be reasonably sure you have 2-3 hours to burn since having to leave means a good chunk of money gone if you are anywhere near the shipping lanes.

    When it takes 5 minutes max to get anywhere on Sapience (if you can fly at least) and any other activity takes you maybe a minute to extricate from (at the very least you can die, quit and pray when you come back) it is a fairly big discrepancy.

    I don't see how to make it better though, since the speed the boats move at is matched pretty well by the chop lanes and you need boats to be visible for a while on the map for killing purposes
  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,558 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Accipiter said:

    I don't see how to make it better though, since the speed the boats move at is matched pretty well by the chop lanes and you need boats to be visible for a while on the map for killing purposes
    Simply double the speed of everything in sailing.  Ship speed, crew balance recovery, everything.  That keeps everything just as matched as it is now, with the only con really being less room for human error (which I'd argue is good anyway).
    JosoulReihaneh
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Penwize said:
    Accipiter said:

    I don't see how to make it better though, since the speed the boats move at is matched pretty well by the chop lanes and you need boats to be visible for a while on the map for killing purposes
    Simply double the speed of everything in sailing.  Ship speed, crew balance recovery, everything.  That keeps everything just as matched as it is now, with the only con really being less room for human error (which I'd argue is good anyway).
    I think doubling the speed of everything would make Seafaring ridiculous, with movement too fast to control, and chops coming at you too quickly to avoid. Increasing speed might help, but my preferred solution would be to instead thin out most chop mazes. Sailing from Tasur'ke to Zanzibaar is quick and painless. Sailing from Aalen to Tapoa, Tasur'ke to Umbrin/Colchis, or Tasur'ke to Ilyrean/Suliel, is very time-consuming and tedious not because of the distance but due to navigating tight passages of chops.
    image
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think doubling the speed of everything would make Seafaring ridiculous, with movement too fast to control, and chops coming at you too quickly to avoid.
    You don't have to sail at max speed all the time. You can set the sails to 50%, stop rowing, etc. when you need control more than speed.
    ArianisKyrra
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    I think doubling the speed of everything would make Seafaring ridiculous, with movement too fast to control, and chops coming at you too quickly to avoid.
    You don't have to sail at max speed all the time. You can set the sails to 50%, stop rowing, etc. when you need control more than speed.
    And chops would be less challenging with faster crew balance.
    SenaJosoul
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