Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Lowering the barrier of entry to Seafaring

DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
edited November 2013 in The Golden Dais of Creation
This is half a suggestion, half an idea. So before hitting the opinion buttons below, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the issue - especially from experienced seafarers!

Currently, the entry-level ship for entering Seafaring is a Windcutter, which goes for 2.5mil sovereigns minimum, usually more if you are purchasing one used. At current credit prices, this is roughly 400 credits. This means that if you are not affiliated with an organization that has a ship which they are willing to use, you cannot participate in Seafaring. At all. Acquiring use of a vessel is not particularly hard, but it is an unnecessary barrier to what is otherwise a very well fleshed out and extremely interesting skill (if you haven't tried it, I highly advise you do!). The justification for the high price on a Windcutter is that they are primarily supposed to be organization-owned ships, not precisely single-person purchases. There is nothing really wrong with this, but I personally do not feel it is optimal for getting people involved in the skill.

Windcutters themselves already have limited functionality in the sense that they cannot fire weapons (or any that count), but are much better at turning than Seastriders, which are the beef-tier ships which most pirates and other seafaring-heavy organizations use the most. Windcutters already appear to be a diluted version of an "entry" level ship, so suggesting something that is lesser than a Windcutter without intruding upon the value of Windcutters is quite difficult. I've given it my best go below, but I would definitely like someone more experienced to chime in if they agree with what I am generally proposing below;

I suggest a new class of ship should be added, centered around very small crew capacity, high speed and high turning capacity, but limited space for additions and/or cargohold, preventing efficient trading.

This ship would be a sloop, and would have a maximum capacity of only 6 crewmen (none required for barebones, but repair actions and other ship-related actions that would normally consume crew balance will instead use twice the amount of your own balance - only applies if you sail without a crew), space for only 2 ship improvements (bait tanks, beacons, diving bells so on so forth), no capacity to participate in shiptrades and is far less resilient to all types of damage (natural wear-and-tear and weapon damage) when compared to a Windcutter. The sloop would essentially be centered around solo captains who wish to explore or simply travel between the various islands as quickly as possible, as the sloop would sport a slightly higher maximum speed than a Windcutter but being slightly more difficult to maneuver overall. The sloop would cost roughly 750k sovereigns, making it far more obtainable and accessible to individuals rather than organizations. I am not sure if this price is unreasonably high or unreasonably low - same deal with the restrictions. Any thoughts on this?
XliMelodieReihanehAsmodronAveriHalos
«13

Comments

  • XliXli Posts: 354Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I like the idea, although I'm not sure why it should suffer wear and tear damage more readily than a windcutter - solo sailors are already being penalised by using twice your own balance to repair without crew
    Hiroma tells you, "I just got to listen to someone complain about your deadly axekick being the bane of their existence."
    Archdragon Mizik Corten, Herald of Ruin says, "Man, that was a big axk."
    Hellrazor Cain de Soulis, Sartan's Hammer says, "Your [sic] a beast."
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Honestly, I just felt like there should be some tangible disadvantages to having such a small ship in order to encourage upgrading or purchasing a Windcutter or a Seastrider, since I think those are where the real stuff happens whatwith shiptrades and all that business.
  • TrevizeTrevize Posts: 1,517Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Kiusha said:
    it would be impossible to explain how she suddenly got so rich
    I'd just like to address this. Not impossible. Not sure on Kiusha's personality, but: won the ship gambling, stole from the last captain, given a an anonymous gift, family heritage, won in a duel, won in a contest... list is endless.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
  • KiushaKiusha Posts: 16Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Trevize said:
    Kiusha said:
    it would be impossible to explain how she suddenly got so rich
    I'd just like to address this. Not impossible. Not sure on Kiusha's personality, but: won the ship gambling, stole from the last captain, given a an anonymous gift, family heritage, won in a duel, won in a contest... list is endless.
    Fair enough: it's not impossible. Let's just say I haven't been able to come up with a reason so far considering her personality that seemed convincing enough.
  • WysteriaWysteria Posts: 1,826Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Gondola / Junk.
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

    Reihaneh
  • OceanaOceana Posts: 887Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Catamaran!
    Tekk
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,883Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think if you made the sloop easily damageable (aka, you're going to get 2-3 shotted by a citadel) with a very tiny crew, no trading etc, that this would be fine. 750k is still a pretty hefty investment without being overwhelming like the windcutter. This wouldn't interest everyone, but as a way to get some initial training in Seafaring, it'd be great.

    I'd probably invest in one just to train people how to sail and for quick skips to islands (probably for marque/SPPs training for others mainly). That way when Taraus comes sailing up behind Daeir and I, I can tell him "get us to port or die" instead of taking command!
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The restrictions could be adjusted to prevent the ships from being overtly profitable, if that was the case.

    I am more for shifting the initial investment premise away from organizations and giving individuals the opportunity to own a ship at a more reasonable price than anything else. Some people feel exceptionally uncomfortable using other people's boats, myself included.
    Reihaneh
  • KinilanKinilan Posts: 1,255Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Silas said:
    People just need to stop worrying about the risks of using org ships, and start getting on the seas with them to get a taste of seafaring and how ships work. I know that I won't care if you get your ship sunk unless you do it on a daily basis, and I imagine other city leaders are the same.
    That's really the big issue right there. People think org ships are something akin to floating icons and they have this idea that a ship being sunk results in some huge loss.On top of that you have orgs that keep their ships in a strangle hold. Cyrene for example requires you have wavecall. That translates to fabled seafaring just to get Watch 5 Command 1 and then you have to pay for things like docking fees and other incidentals when really the ships should be paying for themselves and generating an income for the city.

    In my experience with both Mhaldor and Ashtan The people that really want to sail on their own have their own ships or they share a ship, mostly cutters. People that don't own ships and want to be involved with seafaring will join their city navy along with pirave ship owners that want to do more than fish or dive alone. Mhaldor had no restrictions on renting out its cutter beyond a small rental fee that translated to slightly more than the wages for the time the ship was in use and the wages were kept as low as possible. Nobody wanted to use it. So it was given to someone with seafaring but no ship of their own to do with as they pleased as long as they completed certain trade deals for the city. In Ashtan there is a cutter and a second ARMED Strider that sits unused because the people that want to do seafaring things have their own ships that match the activities they want to take part in.
    Silas
  • SilasSilas Posts: 2,542Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Melodie said:
    I think if you made the sloop easily damageable (aka, you're going to get 2-3 shotted by a citadel) with a very tiny crew, no trading etc, that this would be fine. 750k is still a pretty hefty investment without being overwhelming like the windcutter. This wouldn't interest everyone, but as a way to get some initial training in Seafaring, it'd be great.

    I'd probably invest in one just to train people how to sail and for quick skips to islands (probably for marque/SPPs training for others mainly). That way when Taraus comes sailing up behind Daeir and I, I can tell him "get us to port or die" instead of taking command!
    With deep sea fishing you could make 750k in like 2 weeks fishing only casually.

    RuthAlcinae
  • EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Silas said:
    Melodie said:
    I think if you made the sloop easily damageable (aka, you're going to get 2-3 shotted by a citadel) with a very tiny crew, no trading etc, that this would be fine. 750k is still a pretty hefty investment without being overwhelming like the windcutter. This wouldn't interest everyone, but as a way to get some initial training in Seafaring, it'd be great.

    I'd probably invest in one just to train people how to sail and for quick skips to islands (probably for marque/SPPs training for others mainly). That way when Taraus comes sailing up behind Daeir and I, I can tell him "get us to port or die" instead of taking command!
    With deep sea fishing you could make 750k in like 2 weeks fishing only casually.
    Depending on your definition of "casually". Would have to average like 2 hours a day of nothing but fishing, which seems pretty hefty given how soul-crushingly boring fishing is. Unless you're just autofishing while watching a movie or something, which would hopefully be punished enough to put an end to it within 2 weeks. 
    JulesMelodieDaeirWysteria
  • KinilanKinilan Posts: 1,255Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eld said:
    Silas said:
    Melodie said:
    I think if you made the sloop easily damageable (aka, you're going to get 2-3 shotted by a citadel) with a very tiny crew, no trading etc, that this would be fine. 750k is still a pretty hefty investment without being overwhelming like the windcutter. This wouldn't interest everyone, but as a way to get some initial training in Seafaring, it'd be great.

    I'd probably invest in one just to train people how to sail and for quick skips to islands (probably for marque/SPPs training for others mainly). That way when Taraus comes sailing up behind Daeir and I, I can tell him "get us to port or die" instead of taking command!
    With deep sea fishing you could make 750k in like 2 weeks fishing only casually.
    Depending on your definition of "casually". Would have to average like 2 hours a day of nothing but fishing, which seems pretty hefty given how soul-crushingly boring fishing is. Unless you're just autofishing while watching a movie or something, which would hopefully be punished enough to put an end to it within 2 weeks. 
    You'd think that, but no. Auto-fishers get away with a lot of shit. There used to be bullkelp that would crawl onto a ship and attack people fishing but like sea monsters it's not part of the system. An Imm has to wind one up and let it go.
    Silas
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,883Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Kinilan said:


    Silas said:

    People just need to stop worrying about the risks of using org ships, and start getting on the seas with them to get a taste of seafaring and how ships work. I know that I won't care if you get your ship sunk unless you do it on a daily basis, and I imagine other city leaders are the same.

    That's really the big issue right there. People think org ships are something akin to floating icons and they have this idea that a ship being sunk results in some huge loss.On top of that you have orgs that keep their ships in a strangle hold. Cyrene for example requires you have wavecall. That translates to fabled seafaring just to get Watch 5 Command 1 and then you have to pay for things like docking fees and other incidentals when really the ships should be paying for themselves and generating an income for the city.


    -----

    I'll have to double-check this, but I'm pretty sure the only thing you need to do in Cyrene to sail one of the three ships is to pass a small test to prove you aren't 100% a novice. If you are, you're encouraged to learn from an experienced sailor, first. Then you pay docking fees - that's it.

    As for being profitable, our current and previous MoMAs actually pick up profitable trades (crowns and birdcages mostly, but sometimes the mounts too) and do it themselves, and the items are then sold to the citizens, usually via a mini-auction, at a reduced price of worldwide market value. Trades lately haven't been great, so this has died down a bit, but it used to be a regular thing. Money made from selling the items went to the city.

    As for the auto-fishing issue, obviously there just needs to be a better crack-down. I know Neraeos used to harass them, but in general if it happens, I would be fine not only with their ship being sunk, but with them losing their fish as they drown.

    I don't really think this is going to make auto-fishing a bigger thing though. Not anymore than it is presently, at least.

    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
  • ZulahZulah Posts: 763Member @ - Epic Achaean
    When I started the PoM we were constantly attacked by sea creatures of all types, where have they gone?! I still have a list with descriptions and some nice fight logs.

    Megalodon
    Sea Hag
    Three Headed Sea serpent
    Hydra
    Irate Fisherman
    Lemnian Jellyfish
    Sargassum
    Monstrous Picaroon
    Kraken
    War Galley (Before you could buy galleys)

    EllodinAntidasWysteria
  • EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Penwize said:

    Kinilan said:
    You'd think that, but no. Auto-fishers get away with a lot of shit. There used to be bullkelp that would crawl onto a ship and attack people fishing but like sea monsters it's not part of the system. An Imm has to wind one up and let it go.
    This should be an automatic feature of the oceans.  Random chance based on how long a ship's been anchored, ship get accosted by some mob.  Could just be strong denizens that board the ship or something, really.  Could actually make fishing interesting too, if only for a break from the monotony.
    Doesn't even need to target idle ships specifically, I'd think. Just have sea monsters that will chase you around randomly, capable of sinking an anchored ship in a reasonable time, but not too hard to get away from and/or kill if you're just out and happen to see one.
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,413Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, no, I mean for something really easy to automate.  Even if sea monsters can't really be automated (understandable), denizen-attack events where you get boarded by crazed death kelp or something could be a random chance based on anchored time.
  • ZulahZulah Posts: 763Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Penwize said:
    Well, no, I mean for something really easy to automate.  Even if sea monsters can't really be automated (understandable), denizen-attack events where you get boarded by crazed death kelp or something could be a random chance based on anchored time.
    Sea monsters can be automated. I've made automated ship attack systems in the past on zmud. They have the advantage of not have to get from figurehead to weapon, loading, aiming, firing. If I could script all that in zmud I'm sure an improvised automated seamonster could be done. I'm not saying it's going to be as good as The Black Sail was in its prime with 4-6 players but it would be enough to cause problems for afkers and unskilled captains alike. Plus it would produce some in that vast empty blue players could enjoy
  • KinilanKinilan Posts: 1,255Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Zulah said:
    When I started the PoM we were constantly attacked by sea creatures of all types, where have they gone?! I still have a list with descriptions and some nice fight logs.

    Megalodon
    Sea Hag
    Three Headed Sea serpent
    Hydra
    Irate Fisherman
    Lemnian Jellyfish
    Sargassum
    Monstrous Picaroon
    Kraken
    War Galley (Before you could buy galleys)

    These were never automated. Someone took the time to throw them at you. Before last week in all my time sailing I'd only ever seen 2 sea monsters. Both were angler fish. Both were lame. We just sat there and threw ammo at them. didn't even need to break off for repairs.
    Eld said:
    Penwize said:

    Kinilan said:
    You'd think that, but no. Auto-fishers get away with a lot of shit. There used to be bullkelp that would crawl onto a ship and attack people fishing but like sea monsters it's not part of the system. An Imm has to wind one up and let it go.
    This should be an automatic feature of the oceans.  Random chance based on how long a ship's been anchored, ship get accosted by some mob.  Could just be strong denizens that board the ship or something, really.  Could actually make fishing interesting too, if only for a break from the monotony.
    Doesn't even need to target idle ships specifically, I'd think. Just have sea monsters that will chase you around randomly, capable of sinking an anchored ship in a reasonable time, but not too hard to get away from and/or kill if you're just out and happen to see one.
    That would work. There would need to be a balance pass done on whatever gets summoned to attack a ship though. What tickles a Strider cripples a Cutter and since sea monsters can only hit a ship they are sitting beside it's pretty easy for an unarmed ship to just haul ass to the nearest harbour and not get sunk.

    Alternative option is to give me a compass that points to idle ships. Yep, that's a great idea, lets do that instead. Far less hassle to code in I'm sure.
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,413Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's not really a question of whether it's technically impossible or not, but more of a question of ease of implementation and time required to do so really.  Dropping some denizens on a random proc is way, way easier to code than a ship monster AI is going to be, simply because they don't seem to have anything like that right now, so it'd be something added from the ground up.

    Whenever they do go down the path of automated sea monsters, I imagine it would be something far larger, integrated and awesome than just an AFK-checker.
  • ZulahZulah Posts: 763Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Kinilan said:
    Zulah said:
    When I started the PoM we were constantly attacked by sea creatures of all types, where have they gone?! I still have a list with descriptions and some nice fight logs.

    Megalodon
    Sea Hag
    Three Headed Sea serpent
    Hydra
    Irate Fisherman
    Lemnian Jellyfish
    Sargassum
    Monstrous Picaroon
    Kraken
    War Galley (Before you could buy galleys)

    These were never automated. Someone took the time to throw them at you. Before last week in all my time sailing I'd only ever seen 2 sea monsters. Both were angler fish. Both were lame. We just sat there and threw ammo at them. didn't even need to break off for repairs.

    I didn't intend to imply those were automated. Those were all early days of sailing in Achaea. They were very sentient. I was stating I believe it would be possible to create automated sea creatures now.

    Though I have to agree with Penwize, it would be far easier to create events on ships that utilized the already in place NPC bashing elements.
  • KinilanKinilan Posts: 1,255Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The problem with that Sena is that it takes out all the risk of seafaring. See a hostile ship and token away. You already paid for the ship so no big loss. Pretty much every city and house has ships for their members to use. If people have a hang up over using them and getting them damaged in some way that's their issue, not the systems.

    Plus PoM charges far less than 50k to leave you alone for a day.
  • EllodinEllodin HawaiiPosts: 891Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Entry level ship should automatically start taking on water if you have a trophy fish on the line and be completely unable to sail above a certain level of wave choppiness.
    And as he slept he dreamed a dream, and this was his dream.
    Ainia
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,873Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't really like the idea of a smaller ship being available. A Windcutter is already pretty small....getting any smaller and you'd be in one of the ferry crafts. So considering anything smaller than a Windcutter, you wouldn't be able to get a figurehead on it, any ship equipment or weapon, may not even have sails, or if you did it would be a single mast with a small sail if you consider the size comparison. Windcuter = 3 rooms (Quarterdeck, Bow, Cabin - that's pretty small already). Strider = 6 rooms. Galley = 12+ rooms? (Not sure).

    So that being the case, it would be nowhere near faster than any other ship when sailing or rowing, because there would be no way it could support that. A very well fitted Strider with a well trained crew can be faster than a Cutter considering many different conditions. Anything smaller than a cutter, sure, you could make a full 16 point turn in about couple of seconds, but you're not going to be outrunning a ship with a lot of crew to man the oars and multiple, large sails.


  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,413Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kinilan said:
    The problem with that Sena is that it takes out all the risk of seafaring. See a hostile ship and token away. You already paid for the ship so no big loss. Pretty much every city and house has ships for their members to use. If people have a hang up over using them and getting them damaged in some way that's their issue, not the systems.

    Plus PoM charges far less than 50k to leave you alone for a day.
    I don't know, if the system is causing people to get hung up over potentially getting sunk, that IS the system's issue.  We need more people on the oceans, not less.

    Though honestly if I were to prioritize what I'd like to see in seafaring to encourage people to sail more, I don't think lower cost ships would be on my list.  I think ship stasis would be the first and foremost on my list.  Because of seafaring's time requirement, and the nature of real life, sometimes you just have to drop what you're doing and leave for a while.  Seafaring is not conducive to that at all, compared to everything else in Achaea that is.
    JosoulArianisJonners
«13
Sign In to Comment.