Why does an enemy status determine whether or not an elementalist can destroy a forest with holocaust? I bombed 21 groves, then got enemied, now I can't bomb any part of the forest. I'm open PK while in the forests, right?
If you have grove preservation, then you're good, and the forestals can restore a crispy forest location, right?
I propose that Holocausts from enemied elementalists should still do damage to the forests while casted from the ground, but not the air.
What do you guys think? Offer up some other ideas if you can!
Full Version: Holocaust
The reason, I believe is because of the way that holocaust works. You only need to be in the room (and alive) for the duration of your lost EQ. You could set the holocausts at the maximum timer and then make a quick (or lucky) escape and there isn't anything the defenders can do about it. You could be sitting pretty in Mhaldor or just be out of the forest by the time 5 holocausts go off. This is as opposed to extermination, which requires you to remain in the room for the duration of the attack in order for the damage to be achieved. Of course I understand that you're not some crazy super artied magi like Tiamat or Coran used to be and your means of escape isn't quite so efficient, but those were the most active holocausters at the time when the change was made. It was and still is extremely easy to abuse just like inferno was, provided you had the tankiness or easy means of escape to go with it.
Well, I see..
I really enjoyed lighting the place up this morning, I even enjoyed getting my ass handed to me for doing it. What if Holocausts cast in the forest have a max timer of 10 seconds?
I really enjoyed lighting the place up this morning, I even enjoyed getting my ass handed to me for doing it. What if Holocausts cast in the forest have a max timer of 10 seconds?
I still would not be keen on it. I'll explain why:
If we are to persist in the whole Evil vs Nature conflict, I am of the belief that extermination should be the primary means of damaging the forest. Any ability which proves to be easier to pull off than extermination will inevitably take precedence as the primary means of causing damage. As was proven before when the inferno ability still caused plant damage.
Now, supposing your idea is approved even with a max timer of 10 seconds. Holocaust does not sound an alert when the bomb is dropped, only when the damage is done. This is unlike extermination. Secondly, extermination can be interrupted while holocaust cannot. The exterminator places themselves at risk in that they cannot move until the extermination goes through. A holocauster, as I said before, only needs to drop the bomb. He can continue to sip/eat herbs in the 5 or so seconds that he is put off EQ, and then he just needs to survive the remaining 5. If he/she has an earring/tumbles out/duanathar/gets a portal, he's going scot free. His level of risk is much smaller in that he has a higher chance of completing his mission than an exterminator does. Even if he blows himself up with his own bomb.
If we are to persist in the whole Evil vs Nature conflict, I am of the belief that extermination should be the primary means of damaging the forest. Any ability which proves to be easier to pull off than extermination will inevitably take precedence as the primary means of causing damage. As was proven before when the inferno ability still caused plant damage.
Now, supposing your idea is approved even with a max timer of 10 seconds. Holocaust does not sound an alert when the bomb is dropped, only when the damage is done. This is unlike extermination. Secondly, extermination can be interrupted while holocaust cannot. The exterminator places themselves at risk in that they cannot move until the extermination goes through. A holocauster, as I said before, only needs to drop the bomb. He can continue to sip/eat herbs in the 5 or so seconds that he is put off EQ, and then he just needs to survive the remaining 5. If he/she has an earring/tumbles out/duanathar/gets a portal, he's going scot free. His level of risk is much smaller in that he has a higher chance of completing his mission than an exterminator does. Even if he blows himself up with his own bomb.
Oooo! Well, I'll think up something and send it to the classlead, see what he/she thinks. Thanks Dink.
This thread can be used to toss up ideas, however, I could use all the help I can get.
This thread can be used to toss up ideas, however, I could use all the help I can get.
QUOTE (Dinkybarrel)
Holocaust should take thirty seconds to summon (this takes no balance or eq). When armed in a 'forest', 'trees' or 'grasslands' it should fire immediately - this would cause the room to be set alight and all plants removed (with the exception of preserved groves).
A room which is on fire (let's call this "ablaze!") should have a random chance of spreading the effect into the surrounding rooms but this should have little-to-no impact on plantlife even if left alight for several hours/days (this fact should be played down if at all possible). Those flying above or in the trees should take damage from smoke-inhalation if not holding breath, those in the room would take periodic damage and be set alight.
The Holo-caster should be free-pk in forests, on roads, paths and grasslands. Server upgrades may be required due to an increase of grove gate or flow commands/second.
A room which is on fire (let's call this "ablaze!") should have a random chance of spreading the effect into the surrounding rooms but this should have little-to-no impact on plantlife even if left alight for several hours/days (this fact should be played down if at all possible). Those flying above or in the trees should take damage from smoke-inhalation if not holding breath, those in the room would take periodic damage and be set alight.
The Holo-caster should be free-pk in forests, on roads, paths and grasslands. Server upgrades may be required due to an increase of grove gate or flow commands/second.
I approve.
I hear Sabiru is pretty pro at griefing forestals. Y/N?
QUOTE (Rynn @ Oct 26 2009, 07:44 AM) 
I hear Sabiru is pretty pro at griefing forestals. Y/N?
Well he DID set a whole continent on fire...
A whole uninhabited one, but do go on.
It is not uninhabited.
I have killed its inhabitants many times.
I have killed its inhabitants many times.
QUOTE
With a vicious snarl Shalishaska carves a merciless swathe through the steaming guts of Ylgor, who gurgles and chokes as he withdraws his dripping blade, glistening with gore.
Ylgor has been slain by Shalishaska.
Kazu bows his head in silent prayer.
The swarm of bees angrily stings you in multiple places.
Kerrilynn tumbles out to the west.
You fill your body with the unclean, and begin flailing your arms about while chanting darkly.
Your hand infects Kazu's right leg and right arm.
Your hand infects Stuart's left leg and left arm.
Your hand infects Kallorn's left leg and right leg.
Your hand infects Shalishaska's right arm and right leg.
Your hand infects Guhem's right arm and left arm.
A nearly invisible magical shield forms around Guhem.
Kazu slowly raises his head and you see his eyes glowing bright white.
Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
You fill your body with the unclean, and begin flailing your arms about while chanting darkly.
Your hand infects Kazu's left leg and left arm.
Your hand infects Shalishaska's left leg and left arm.
Your hand infects Kallorn's right arm and left arm.
Your hand infects Stuart's right leg and left arm.
Kazu begins to tumble towards the west.
Drawing on the power of undeath, you wreathe your hand in black, crackling energy. With a diabolical laugh, you stiffen your hand and slowly run it down Kazu's chest, splitting it open as you do so. With an expert touch, you rip apart his innards, causing a maximum of horrifying pain, and, enjoying the spectacle of Kazu writhing and screaming in agony, you rip out his sternum and drive it through his splayed body, pinning him to the ground to die.
Ylgor has been slain by Shalishaska.
Kazu bows his head in silent prayer.
The swarm of bees angrily stings you in multiple places.
Kerrilynn tumbles out to the west.
You fill your body with the unclean, and begin flailing your arms about while chanting darkly.
Your hand infects Kazu's right leg and right arm.
Your hand infects Stuart's left leg and left arm.
Your hand infects Kallorn's left leg and right leg.
Your hand infects Shalishaska's right arm and right leg.
Your hand infects Guhem's right arm and left arm.
A nearly invisible magical shield forms around Guhem.
Kazu slowly raises his head and you see his eyes glowing bright white.
Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
You fill your body with the unclean, and begin flailing your arms about while chanting darkly.
Your hand infects Kazu's left leg and left arm.
Your hand infects Shalishaska's left leg and left arm.
Your hand infects Kallorn's right arm and left arm.
Your hand infects Stuart's right leg and left arm.
Kazu begins to tumble towards the west.
Drawing on the power of undeath, you wreathe your hand in black, crackling energy. With a diabolical laugh, you stiffen your hand and slowly run it down Kazu's chest, splitting it open as you do so. With an expert touch, you rip apart his innards, causing a maximum of horrifying pain, and, enjoying the spectacle of Kazu writhing and screaming in agony, you rip out his sternum and drive it through his splayed body, pinning him to the ground to die.
Holocaust was originally changed to affect forests because Sylvans were going Xoran/Dwarf and stacking them in Groves with Icewalls to prevent Crashing. It wasn't a very elegant fix. Then after one unnamed Mage singlehandedly blew up half a continent worth of forest by flying around dropping them, an even uglier patch was applied which resulted in the current enemy status mechanic. A lot of ideas have been tossed around on how to pretty it up and balance it, but so far nothing has really stuck. If anyone can think of something better, short of just doing away with it entirely, we'd love to hear it.
well since we can't keep people in groves anymore i don't understand why we can't change it back
I'm working on an idea, but it'd be a new skill called "flare"
For mages, being enemied to Oakstone can be a benefit, even an enhancement of a skill, because you don't have to worry about destroying forests if you want to holobomb a group that's standing in a grove somewhere. What if Magi, but not Sylvans, could choose to make their Holocaust globe 'cold fire' so that it doesn't damage forests? Then you'd still have the patch on that Sylvan combo, but wouldn't be downgrading the skill for non-grove-users. I'm hardly an expert on combat, so forgive me if this is ridiculous.
QUOTE (Azor @ Oct 28 2009, 05:46 AM)
For mages, being enemied to Oakstone can be a benefit, even an enhancement of a skill, because you don't have to worry about destroying forests if you want to holobomb a group that's standing in a grove somewhere. What if Magi, but not Sylvans, could choose to make their Holocaust globe 'cold fire' so that it doesn't damage forests? Then you'd still have the patch on that Sylvan combo, but wouldn't be downgrading the skill for non-grove-users. I'm hardly an expert on combat, so forgive me if this is ridiculous.
Bomb doesn't even go off, it gets tossed into the air. It's no benefit at all. Cold fire sounds interesting though. Although I'm thinking of that as a Sylvan *cough*
That sounds cool. A different version of holocaust for magi and sylvan? Or a toggle for what type of damage it does?
The timer has nothing to do with it at all.
Setting a holocaust for a timer of 10 seconds is actually more efficient than 60 seconds for killing forests.
It's mostly just that you can walk around killing forests for 4 second EQ, rather than a long channeling skill(exterminate).
Setting a holocaust for a timer of 10 seconds is actually more efficient than 60 seconds for killing forests.
It's mostly just that you can walk around killing forests for 4 second EQ, rather than a long channeling skill(exterminate).
QUOTE (Santar @ Oct 27 2009, 06:06 PM)
The timer has nothing to do with it at all.
Setting a holocaust for a timer of 10 seconds is actually more efficient than 60 seconds for killing forests.
It's mostly just that you can walk around killing forests for 4 second EQ, rather than a long channeling skill(exterminate).
Setting a holocaust for a timer of 10 seconds is actually more efficient than 60 seconds for killing forests.
It's mostly just that you can walk around killing forests for 4 second EQ, rather than a long channeling skill(exterminate).
I think it was more that they could drop holobombs with a longer timer so they would avoid detection longer (10 second detonation means you get to drop 3 before people show up, 60 seconds would be quite a bit more), as long as I understand properly...do you get an alert when the thing is armed, dropped, or explodes?
It was sort of two changes. The change to Exterm stopped Grove trapping. But then it was used for mass Exterminating. Forest enemying did nothing to slow it down, since you could just fly over most Forest defs. And yeah, with 60 second timers you could cast about 9-10 before the first blew and make your escape. It's about a 6 second EQ. Holos cast at ground level were just discussed. The only other thing left out was Forcing Holos, which was popular for a while. Sylvans in their Groves mainly, suddenly forced to cast a Holo and having to Heartstop in order to prevent it from blowing.
Different damage types have been discussed before, but it's supposed to be one of the tradeoffs to balance it. The races doing the most damage are either weak to fire or have low health (or both) while Holo is fire damage with a huge base damage. The races most resistant to fire damage have modest intelligence. And Fire is also the damage type with the most forms of resistance available, and also the highest possible resistance levels of any type.
Anyway, I agree it doesn't present a very good conflict mechanic in the present form. There isn't much of a philosophical basis behind it either, Elements vs Nature? If that were addressed first, the rest might follow. As it is now it's mainly a deterrent to prevent the people who have it from actually using it, at least in the forests.
Different damage types have been discussed before, but it's supposed to be one of the tradeoffs to balance it. The races doing the most damage are either weak to fire or have low health (or both) while Holo is fire damage with a huge base damage. The races most resistant to fire damage have modest intelligence. And Fire is also the damage type with the most forms of resistance available, and also the highest possible resistance levels of any type.
Anyway, I agree it doesn't present a very good conflict mechanic in the present form. There isn't much of a philosophical basis behind it either, Elements vs Nature? If that were addressed first, the rest might follow. As it is now it's mainly a deterrent to prevent the people who have it from actually using it, at least in the forests.
QUOTE (Mulkerrin @ Oct 26 2009, 02:57 PM)
Holocaust was originally changed to affect forests because Sylvans were going Xoran/Dwarf and stacking them in Groves with Icewalls to prevent Crashing. It wasn't a very elegant fix. Then after one unnamed Mage singlehandedly blew up half a continent worth of forest by flying around dropping them, an even uglier patch was applied which resulted in the current enemy status mechanic. A lot of ideas have been tossed around on how to pretty it up and balance it, but so far nothing has really stuck. If anyone can think of something better, short of just doing away with it entirely, we'd love to hear it.
Of course then grove users got preservation to prevent holos from harming their groves, and presto they could once again stack them, so pretty much just ended up being a pain to magi and not sylvans.
As for Elements(magi) vs Nature, it is more a Imperian thing from what I know, so doubt that will happen.
I am unsure as to how Mishgul's response fell under the radar. Although I'm not keen on knocking the legs out from people who want to nuke the forests in this way, everyone is still speaking as though "icewall + trap" is a viable combination when it was nerfed long before grove trap was deleted.
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