Are there any cities that even allow this concept, or does Achaean good somehow immediately imply lawful?

Edit: I ask this question because I know that there have been numerous characters developed with this as their standard, but in the end they all turn evil due to being forcefully removed from their cities. I'm struggling defining Otha's role at this point in time, and this seems to describe what he has always been in the past. Leaving the Serpent Lords removed any shred of RP left in Otha, and I need to sit down and draft out a plan before I destroy him entirely.

In Achaea, Chaos (with a big C) has a different sort of definition. We see ourselves as above either good or evil, as those are restriction concepts that get in the way of true knowledge, etc. That said, in the old days we had several Occies that would fit this role. Nimby comes to mind and even Rocktamer to an extent. Even now, though a lot has changed since then, I don't think we'd look down on such a thing as long a the "good" was an act of conscience and not "Good" as in the way the church defines it.

Than again, I may be totally off base as to what you are looking for here. If you're not talking big Chaos at all--then, I don't see why a character like this couldn't fit in many places.

What he is talking about, I think, is taking Achaean Good (capital G, Churchy Good) and applying the D&D Chaotic attribute to it (that is, the opposite of Lawful, not Achaean Chaos/Oblivion). Basically, a character who follows Good, but does not follow traditional laws/other peoples' morals, etc.

Basically, it's what the Dawnstriders are supposed to be.

EDIT: I could be wrong, too. I'm not familiar with the D&D definition of "good", so if that's what he's using, I am incorrect.

Nevermind, was gonna make a joke. Carry on!

Yes. This is the Dawnstriders' intended purpose. However, I should point out that the D&D alignment system only sporadically applies to Achaean alignments. (e.g. The Church is Good, and could be described as Lawful-Good. Mhaldor is Evil, and could be described as Lawful-Evil. The Babelites are Chaotic, but could be described as Chaotic-Neutral to Chaotic-Evil, from an outsider's perspective.) It doesn't always apply, though, given that Achaean Good is not D&D's "moral," Achaean Evil is not D&D's "amoral," (though they share similar aspects), and Achaean Chaos is certainly not D&D's "resists structure and law."

I like that, because it enables my character to still give a damn about his family and race.

This is why the D&D alignment system would be more used to define character traits, rather than using them as an analogy to Achaean alignments.

I think maybe he's looking for a "Robin Hood" sort of personality. "Do the right thing, ignore oppressive rules/rulers, the letter of the law isn't as important as the meaning behind it"

Actually, we are above your petty alignments:

Thats the problem with Chaos in Achaea, it is not really Chaotic.

lol

Chaos is pretty -ing Chaotic, actually.

How so? The so called House of Occultists just sit around babbleing on about Oblivion and the definition of Chaos without actually acting chaotic.

For someone that is a Rogue and was removed -from- the Occultist House (IIRC), you presume to know a lot. The Occultist House and the Babelites actually -do- stuff. Also, the Occultists (and Babel) ARE Chaos. If they say that sticking your finger up your nose and kicking people in the teeth is Chaotic, then it's -ing Chaotic!

How does one "act" chaotic?

Incorrect. They make use of the latent Chaotic energies dispersed throughout Sapience after the Chaos Wars, but they are not themselves Chaos.

Certainly not by declaring war on every different organization in Sapience..that's much too passive for Zoma's tastes. He would prefer if we sit at NoT in his company and say things like, "Babel is a jerk" or something else exceedingly productive.

I meant more that they get to define it since it is their side. But yeah I wasn't exactly clear there.

Who says? They may claim to be, but they are not.

And you act chaotic by

cha-ot-ic 

–adjective
completely confused or disordered: a chaotic mass of books and papers.

You made rookie mistake #1. Chaos =/= chaos. The "C" is big for a reason. Shallam isn't good, they're Good. Mhaldor isn't evil, they're Evil. And the Occultists and Babel aren't chaotic, they're Chaotic. RL definitions mean nothing in game.

Owned by Boz, Zoma...things aren't looking good for you.

Mhaldor acts evil by oppressing and praising suffering, and Shallam acts good by slaying the wicked and beliving in morals. Ashtan and Babel however, do not act chaotic.

Zoma does not act intelligently.

Am I playing this game right?

You know very well that Chaos is anarchy and anyone who says differently is a great big doo-doo head who may as well be working for the Church. Now, pardon me. I'm going to go spraypaint that on a wall and then whine when the Occultists and Babel kill me for insulting them.

Morality != Good

My OP was essentially a question in regards to a Chaotic character with morals, what the DS were originally (prior to 'Chaos' existing - they were created to be outside the tenants of Good/Evil and make decisions based on their morals, which coincided with a few key beliefs of the church).

You are continuing to fail at understanding a primary convention of the game.

Good != good.

Evil != evil

Chaos != chaos.


Everything Shallam does isn't good. But everything they do is Good, for example. Do you understand this?

Mhaldor acts Evil by following the values of Oppression and Suffering, and Shallam acts Good by fighting off Evil and believing in Good. Ashtan and Babel, however, are Chaotic and thus follow their own rules. And the Occultists tend to be secretive, something that is RP'd very well. So just because YOU, someone who is NOT a member of the Occultists and even HATED by them, are in no place whatsoever to judge them. They do Chaotic things quite often, they are also very scholarly in game. Overall they are probably one of the better RP groups around. You have no leg to stand on. Dismissed!

EDIT: Good, not good.

Is the Church chaotic because they follow their rules? Is Mhaldor chaotic because they follow their rules? The truly Chaotic would live without rules.

YOU ARE SO STUPID STOP POSTING. I CANNOT RESPOND INTELLIGENTLY TO A WORTHLESS MASS OF IDIOCY WRAPPED IN CLOTHES THAT REEK OF INCOMPETENCE SHUT UP SHUT UP. SHUT. UP.

...I'm going to stop talking to you now. Logic obviously bounces off of you, examples and things explained by more experienced people who know what they're talking about has about as much of an effect on you as bullets on superman. Yes, you are absolutely correct. We're all idiots, and you are right. Of course you know more than me, of course you know more than people who have played that side for RL years, of course you know more about how the Occultists don't do - and the Babelites are useless despite the fact that they had a RL year (or more) long plotline that resulted in a new God (Babel). Of course you're right. All hail Zoma, shower of Truth!

I don't think you understand the way Achaea works.

The church gets to define Good, not good.
Mhaldor gets to define Evil, not evil.
Babel gets to define Chaos, not chaos.

Zoma gets to do nothing, other than annoy the - out of everyone.

He was already told once. He be trolling, or he be wearing a helmet.

I could say the same to you, Manifest. Claiming to be Chaotic and not actually doing so.

Troll. Move on, nothing to see here.

You're right, Zoma. An Occultist for over 200 years, who wages war on the drop of a dime against anyone who pisses him off, has no Chaotic attributes whatsoever. However, a worthless Occultist reject who does nothing but bitch at NoT about how much the Occultists suck is much more Chaotic.

You were also a Shaman.

Meant a member of the Occultist House.

Move on, folks. Do not derail this thread, I find Otha's question to be interesting.

I'm working on it.

Results so far!


but there is this
Enemies of the City of Shallam:
Otha
Total: 1
4450h, 3173m, 21460e, 16600w exdb-
Enemies of the Dawnstriders:
Otha
Total: 1
4450h, 3173m, 21460e, 16600w exdb-

whole matter.

Plus the traitor thing.

Moving on!
Don't have to join a House, don't have to join a City. Find some other like-minded people and set up something of your own. Work closely with Shallam and the Church, but don't actually join, maybe?

Babel is a jerk

Repost of my clarification for the OP (it's somewhere in the middle of the derail too)

My OP was essentially a question in regards to a Chaotic character with morals, what the DS were originally (prior to 'Chaos' existing - they were created to be outside the tenants of Good/Evil and make decisions based on their morals, which coincided with a few key beliefs of the church).

You can be chaotic and allied to the Church, but not Chaotic. I think that's what we are all saying. Chaos and Good are far too ideologically opposed for this to ever make any sort of sense.

Also: Katia made me laugh, I feel dirty.

Why not try and join the dawnies and save them from the pit they've fallen into?
They were created with the 'chaotic good' theme in mind, and they are sadly lacking in this field. They're not good, they're not chaotic, they're just.. nothing.
It could be a good goal for the character as well.. reform enough to be accepted by the house/city and then work up to taking over the House?
Quitting trying to join the jerk team might help you as well!
I'm not sure there are many gods suitable, the good ones tend not to be very chaotic, and the chaotic ones aren't very good... a neutral god might be okay, but Otha doesn't really strike me as an 'order' sort of person, so following a god isn't likely to be in his theme though.. if that makes sense.

Chaos and Good yes, but what about Chaos and good?

Sure. Mani does display some sort of moral compass, from time to time..although usually not. But ask any novice that he robs/kills, citymates that need help with something, etc..and he can be "good".

I was actually thinking about trying to spin this.

Unfortunately I was enemied to the Dawntriders for OOC reasons, and without a mass purge I don't think anyone can overcome Saria's family/alt army

It may be worth a try, the question is whether or not I have the fortitude to actually go through with it. Good players have always gotten the shaft in terms of creative character lines, it would be nice to recreate an old line for potential RP.

Edit: The biggest problem with this is the lack of patrons in terms of active divine. Pentharian does not fit the traditional Dawnstriders, neither does Lorielan.

Valnurana was the closest to a chaotic good (notice both lowercase!), but I think she's dormant? Not active enough to completely redefine a house anyway.

Well, join the city first, having an active and capable 'good' guy would be actually pleasant for a change, someone to fight against as it where.
If you're in shallam and you manage to not kill people, you can start to change people's opinions of you. It might take time, but I think you'll manage it, you're a strangely smart guy, and I like ya, so I have a little more faith that you could do it if you tried!
Dooo eeet