Delete the market channel. This is all.

There is the ads universnal board. Delete this too and in its stead place city based ad boards in each city. Cities can set the price to advertise. Would be much like reading the signs at Vinci. They can also approve/delete ads at their will. Sounds like something one of the many almost unneeded city spots can do, like Steward.

A scenario of said adboard.

The big spot of said city.
There is some stuff here. There is also a big wooden board with notices on it. Some more crap around the ground. Skulls, rats, mice, etc.
All the people like to congregate here.
Exits are north, east, south, up, down, deletion.
My prompt is extra long because I have an extra long one. <Oh, my timestamp for issues> <my other stuff> <more stuff> <0|0|0|0|0|0>read adboard

You read a large board with plenty of stupidly written market ads on it:
[1] Someones shop of overpriced herbs
[2] Someone elses shop of overpriced herbs
[3] Clothes that are cheap and not needed
[4] Clothes that are cheap and not needed
[5] Super-over priced clothes
[6] Another overpriced herb shop
[7] I sell weapons and armor at my shop
[8] Honest persons shop of non-scammage
[9] The real honest shop of overpriced herbs.
My prompt is extra long because I have an extra long one. <Oh, my timestamp for issues> <my other stuff> <more stuff> <0|0|0|0|0|0>read ad 1

Posted on the board on some bad date you read an idiots ad:
Come buy my overpriced herbs. They're the cheapest in town, honest!
So come visit my shop. I make you a good deal.
My prompt is extra long because I have an extra long one. <Oh, my timestamp for issues> <my other stuff> <more stuff> <0|0|0|0|0|0>autowalk to shop engage.

Why.

Would make things very hard on Rogues. And would make it difficult to get information that people usually get from the market channel, like Order information.

I'm all for getting rid of the market channel.
It would encourage actually conversing with people in-game. Maybe a city bulletin board where approval to post there must be made by a minister of trade (and for a hefty fee).

* If you wanted herbs and refills, you need to make friends or a nice business relationship with those that can do that for you.
* If you wanted to know about an Order, you would need to seek out information from talking to others and following clues.
* If you want people to know about your store, you'll need to build up word-of-mouth.

You practically would be forced to build relationships with other players if market channel was removed. I think that's a great thing.

You make a very convincing argument in support of this idea.

Market is not meant for utterly retarded things like "Paying for information on X." If you're too lazy to ask around, as many people carry things related to their Order in their title, then you don't deserve to be part of said thing or find said thing.

Besides, everyone knows you're not going to pay.

No, thank you.

I just want a more consistent application of the rules. When I have been making my ads for years now without any hassle or issue and then all of a sudden they decide they want to say I broke a rule that I did not, and then punish for that rule, it's stupid.

Oh, Exelethril.

The awful handling of market rule 'violations' needs to be fixed.

Delete market. No more aweful handling. Your problem would be solved.

You have offered no reason to remove the Market channel.

No more aweful handling. No more idiots 'paying' for information. Less emphasis on rogues and more on forced interaction.

The first two are not reasons to remove it. The third is not terribly compelling, as the Market channel is also strongly used by individuals belonging to organizations, both for advertisement, and for seeking services not found in their own organization.

Market does not need to be removed.

Why can't people use the ads board instead?

I have a better idea.

Leave the market channel the - alone.

marketoff

And the city bulletin board could easily be done with a chelp file Although, the bulletin board is not a terrible idea.

ONP.

This and that stupid rule about "tacking on a valid offer at the end of such and such" needs to go so those who use it as a legitimate marketing tool can use it without worrying whether the current channel monitor has a sense of humor or is a hard nose

Ad boards are far less convenient and far less immediate. For example, if I'm trying to get a grove rezz for someone, I need to get it for them as soon as possible. Putting it up in a city and hoping someone with grove resurrection will happen to look at that one particular ad on one of the specific boards I put it up on before the person is forced to pray due to mana loss is an exercise in futility.

lol

Coming from the one who only kills Ashtan's newbies, and then attempts to coerce them away.

You chose to be a rogue. Suck it up.

Also: I'm going to have to vote for a no on this idea. Market is fine the way it is. Though if you must have a change, get better channel monitors that don't revoke privs for stupid reasons, and then let the truly stupid ones slide.

Edit: too many commas.

I like the idea, actually. (EDIT 3: I like the premise of the idea, but reading over it I don't really like how it was posted...) It might be cool to integrate it with the newsrooms, because there are (perhaps surprisingly) newsrooms that exist outside the main cities, like the one in Ogalla. If ads-via-newsrooms are restricted to members of a city, it would be fairly simple to get to a public one as a rogue, if you know where to look.


EDIT (please read):

Market always seems to be more lulzy than anything to be honest, and it's a bit spammy sometimes which is annoying. Using the newsrooms to create and view ads (specifically only allow them to be viewed from a newsroom) would clean up the spam and hopefully raise the general quality of posted ads, and forcing them to use the AD system (with associated price) would also give a specific place for ads to be recorded, without having to repeat yourself every half hour.

EDIT 2: Oh yeah. If this goes in (and I hope it does), please let AD <id> DESCRIBE use the composer. Please.

EDIT FINAL: Yeah, I edited the humgii out of this post. I'm sorry (Okay, not final, I fixed a problem from a previous edit in the first paragraph. Someone stop me!)

This.

No to op and no to bulletin boards. I don't even read the newsboards!

That's not a very good argument at all. Why don't you read the newsboards? Is there something wrong with them? Do you use the market channel, either? You don't have to read the ads if you don't want to. If you do, it's not too hard to find a newsroom and check in. You can even ignore the normal news while you're there.

Please, explain.

EDIT: By the way, it may be worth noting that currently, people create ADs, then advertise them on the Market channel. Honest question here, does anyone actually peruse the ads on their own, or do they wait for someone to advertise an advertisement on the Market channel? Seriously...

Do not delete market - there is no reason to delete it, and it currently serves a function for those who need goods immediately or quickly.

Okay, good argument. I'll break that apart one by one.

1) "No reason to" - Well, there's no reason to do a lot of things, and yet they still get approved. Just look at The List. I'd much appreciate some reasons why not to remove the Market channel. Happily, you supplied one.

2) "a function for those who need goods immediately or quickly" - Okay. Well, most of the advertisements on the channel are not urgent unfortunately, and I think a good case could be made that the urgent matters should be moved to House or City channels. Before anyone says that it hurts rogues, the houseless and cityless should hopefully know what they're getting into. The market channel shouldn't be used as a quick resurrection channel, for example. Mention it on House or City, have some friends pull some strings and get you a contact. Etc etc.

That's where you're wrong. Most markets that matter are urgently, a noncom wouldn't know anything about that though.

Examples rather than wry jabs, please. I mentioned one example of "urgent" resurrections, and I think you may be forgetting that the Market channel is indeed public. I see what people use it for, it's not like you can say something on Market and hide it from non-coms.

EDIT per Darroth's edit: I quote, "that matter"? Pardon me, but that seems rather high and mighty of you. Why do you decide what does and does not matter?

As said before I do like the premise of this idea, since it would force people to interact more AND read more, (plus getting rid of people who spam Market with the same ads over and over and over) but I agree with those who mentioned urgency in certain goods or services.

Per Soludra's point about asking on House or City for things like resurrections, sometimes there isn't anyone who can do that in your House or City, or they're not responding, and you need the rezz urgently. The Market channel obviously helps with that. On the other hand, maybe people should care less about losing experience!

If the Market channel really were to go, I'd like the ad board to stay as it is now, at least. And as Soludra said, please please please let us be able to use the composer.

Exactly, yes... I've mentioned IG many times that rezzes are a privilege, not a right. Death is not permanent. So you might lose a bit of experience, okay. It stinks, but you're playing a game with lots of other people. Show some maturity. If you're dueling, put in the extra effort to find someone to resurrect you before you begin fighting, so you're prepared.

Removing the market channel would encourage people to find access to those things by other ways, like actually speaking with people and interacting.

Although many would personally experience a direct negative impact of removing the Market channel, I believe it might be benefitial for the game in total.

As someone who admittedly abuses the Market channel like it were my redheaded stepchild, I can't say I would particularly mind its removal. One more of Hipsana's obnoxious rhyming ads, or Rosaeceae begging for cookies, or Lavinia's unnecessary flaunting of her vast selection of nipple rings to encourage the MUDsexers and I swear to God I'm going to end up losing my Market privileges permanently, anyway. However, I do understand that the Market channel is convenient and necessary for legitimate buying and selling-- the acquisition of resurrections comes to mind, as not every city has an active forestal presence at all times.

I don't necessarily think it ought to be removed, but it would be nice to see the Market Gestapo come down on the aforementioned individuals and those like them for their obnoxious use of the channel in addition to picking on people like me, who can't resist the temptation to poke fun at stupidity. Oh, and quit banning people for "seeking" as opposed to "buying"-- if I'm "seeking refills", I'm obviously going to pay for them. There are, quite obviously, more important infractions for the administrators to police than piddling semantics.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

I would, however, point out that the burden of proof in this case lies on those who want to see the Market channel deleted, not those who want to see it stay.

I like this idea. It's basically a way to prevent Mhaldorians from asking for "a whole bunch of grove resurrections plz" for, you know, their people raiding forestal orgs. Stamp of approval!

edit: Aka rogues are out of business and emphasis is placed on faction benefits.

Personally, I've used and abused Market.

Many people have seen my ads for one of my many shops. I've actually studied the differences in income when I advertise or not. Just like television commercials, it lets people know that if they want something, come to this store. The ad system we have, it's great for anyone specifically seeking services. It's pointless to peruse otherwise, except to escape boredom. But similar to real life, ads versus market channel is the difference between going to a phone directory and searching out furniture outlets, compared to seeing an market quip in everyday life and having it in your mind that if you need furniture, you should go to this store. The latter is obviously better for anyone trying to make money. You want to seek out customers, not let them seek you out.

A note on moderation:
I have always tried to keep my ads tasteful, so even if they are repetitive, they are not offensive. I normally leave a good gap, though, I have been zapped for advertising different shops too quickly. Even though I cannot physically spam the channel as there is a hard-coded limit to how fast one person can talk there. *shrug*

Though, if someone doesn't like the market spam, they always have the option of turning it off. It is not forced upon anyone in the game. Anyone trying to buy or sell, I'm sorry, but yes you will need to deal with competition of other people buying and selling things too. We're all working for the same gold piles here.

I wouldn't mind seeing a channel moderator more active and more consistent. But any job spread over many people will always get different styles and acceptance levels.

As a personal standpoint, I agree that it is the job of the idea suggester to deal with the burden of proof, rather then those arguing against the change.

It has been brought up that deleting market will force interaction, where market already encourages interaction. If I say on market that I'm crafting enchantments, anyone who maybe wants to buy them will seek me out. Or the reverse, someone hops on market saying they want enchantments, I can seek them out. Interaction. Just because it's global doesn't mean the interaction is any less.

It has been said that stupid markets or people seeking information is reason for deletion as a whole. I disagree. If you want to stop that behavior, put your foot down and stop it with moderation. There is no reason to delete a whole system that serves several purposes just to stop dealing with a few bad apples, let alone 'all in the name of interaction' as there is already interaction involved with market use.

Deleting market will just makes many exchanges far more frustrating without any reasonable gain, even more so when you consider that you'd have to go to multiple cities just to see all of the ads.

Every single thing on The List © has a reason for being on there. If there is an item with a legitimate use (like the market channel), and there is no reason to delete it (stupidity does not count, otherwise we should remove combat from Achaea, because of idiots who abuse skills, break rules, etc.) - then it should not be deleted.

You obviously are in a forestal city.
In Shallam, Cyrene, and Mhaldor prominently, there are times when there are general lack of forestal to refill, or magi to enchant, or (x class) to do (y thing). In the sake of protecting house identity, we don't allow every house to have a refiller, or a rezzer, enchanter, forger, etc. - so making the claim that they should take it to house is faulty. Likewise, I know playing a forestal in Mhaldor and (sometimes) Ashtan can be a pain, because in Mhaldor they might have to deal with unwanted drama that comes from being an Evil Forestal, and Ashtan/Shallam you get the incessent retardsspecial citizens who ask you to refill for them, and then get high and mighty/insulted when you refuse. So, Market definitely has a legitimate purpose when in the hands of a responsible user - the case has still yet to be made (in my mind) for the removal of Market channel.

This is a good point. Getting a grove ress would now require knowing the forestal personally or having one on cwho/hwho.

Deleting market to control one ability in one skill seems like faulty logic.

I only approve of this topic if 'market' were changed to 'veil' in the OP.

If the ads were integrated into newsrooms, I don't see any reason why that would need to be the case. They would hopefully be visible from all newsrooms, just like the actual news.



Correction on my part: there are plenty of things on there that are far more minor than the removal of Market. "No reason to" isn't a good reason, when several have already stepped up and said there is a reason to. My main point there was just to point that out.



Yes, I obviously am in a forestal city. However, as you probably know, I'm also a Sylvan, which means I generally don't need said city for my rezzes or fills anyways.

I never said that every House needed a forger/filler/enchanter/rezzer. I think that people should make connections with people who have the abilities they need, and if you don't know anyone yourself, you could ask an online House/City-member if they know anyone, or just have them pass it along. There's plenty of ways besides Market that you can use to seek out a service relatively quickly.

On the Mhaldor point: Down with evil forestals... What does this have to do with market channel, though?
On 'special citizens': I don't rightly get this one. If you can't refill, you can't refill. Why let their bad behavior afterwards get to you? You can still ask around for someone, whether you're the novice or someone helping the novice.



Not necessarily. It's not like you can't contact anyone outside your own organizations. If you don't have a service provider immediately at hand, ask those around you if they know anyone in particular. Ask on clans (IC please ), those things are great for meeting people outside your House and City. Et cetera.


I honestly believe removing Market and replacing it with a list of ads within the newsroom would be beneficial to the overall Achaean atmosphere. It would require at least some player interaction and it would help at least with RP, particularly in the field of advertising.

For the Boards: I think it would probably force more interaction on an individual level, while being more inconvenient as a whole. Which means, if you are looking for a person to enchant someone for you, get to know a magi or something. As for immediate things, like resurrections and the like, again, know a forestal or someone who does. I would also suggest an ad board at NoT that will pull random adds from the cities.

For Market: It's more convenient. Nothing else to it.

I personally dislike the "each city's ads are separate" approach and would much rather see it as "all ads are visible from any newsroom". If it had to go the former way though, a board at NoT would be good. Except isn't that where a lot of duels are done? (EDIT: Again, if this was the route we had to take, perhaps the board should go in the New Thera town square.)

Also, I would hope that with this change, more providers would put their services up on the boards, meaning that 'seeking' would usually only involve checking the ads for a list of providers, and seeing if any of them are around. This brings up another idea to go with this change: categorization of ads. *nod me*

Addition of Market channel = OP's description

Deletion of Market channel = Golden Dais of Creation topic "Some kind of trade channel to advertise goods or the need of them"

The bolded is of much more importance than whether market goes or stays. Suffice to say I'd be fine with both veils and market going (but mostly veils).

I approve if we get rage back instead