Is it crossing a line when divine go retroactively through a players tells to find out and destroy a line of RP?


I.E. Player A is a spy, communicates through tells to Player B. Both are in the same room and use bell tattoos throughout the conversation. A divine sifts through tell logs AFTER the fact (they are not listening/even aware of the conversation). They then act on this knowledge to destroy any spy type RP.

Basically, are the Gods in Achaea omniscient to the point where something like this is allowed? I'd have no qualms if the divine was listening in the conversation at the time, that would be focused attention. It makes sense that if someone poses a threat a divine could monitor that individual closely. But to retroactively go through someone's tell logs - does that fit within divine RP?

Edit: This is intended to be a serious question, so don't post stupidly hateful answers. It arose out of a recent situation, but I'm posting in curiosity and not some intended way to cleverly jab at a group.

Otha is making a vie for biggest whiner ever.

I know that some divine have been trying to 'Erase' what at least organization has accepted as cannon. It sucks, but I don't think it's out of line at all. They're gods, they're aware of things that are going on with the world beyond your comprehension, and even though some of them hate each other, they're probably buddy, buddy in the garden, trying to figure out how to make life work for the little folk.

They direct the shaping of the world. If you try and fight it, good for you. But don't get mad if you lose.

I remember a certain baker who decided to try and get a certain citizen in trouble involving certain baked goods and enchanted jewellery.

That baker got blown up by Mhaldor.

...With Mellisa aiding. She already mucks things up by aiding Mhaldorians to kill a certain messenger boy.

Horns <3 Mellisa

Horns told me when he made me Order Head that I was just holding it until Mellisa converts. I'm okay with that, really. She is far more oppressive than I could ever hope to be.

He told me the same thing when Apples made me Messiah.

I have no idea what would be proper for the gods RP. This really would have to be decided by the garden.

On another note: If I was the god is question and I just happened to be reading the conversation logs sometime after it happened, just so I know what goes on in my order and the like, then I would find that acceptable. Because in the achaean "reality" I don't see the gods leaving the realms or going to sleep when their players aren't on. they are still there, just not interacting with mortals. So it is still possible, IG anyway, that they would have overheard something when they weren't logged in. If this is the case then fine, that's ok. It's the same as overhearing the conversation if they had happened to be on and listening at the point in time the conversation took place.
If, however, someone else (a mortal) told the god about their suspicion about the character being a spy, or even better, that they had heard the conversation take place. I would say (at least if I was the god) that I wouldn't go back and look at the logs, because that would be like looking back in time (which I don't feel the gods can do). It's like before the mortal contacts the god about this (or vise versa), you have a Schrödinger's cat like situation, no one really knows what the god knows. So as soon as the mortal tells the god and the god responds you've collapsed the probabilities and the god either knew before or he didn't. At this point I would say that going back to read the logs on the conversation could have no part of that gods IC knowledge. They could, however, act on this report from a mortal and begin monitoring the spy, which would lead to some good RP.

It's hard to have any real comment on the situation without knowing what's going on. Maybe it was for the greater good that your plot fell through.

That said, a certain god (that I won't name out of respect) intentionally pretended not to know about some small-scale plotting and played along absolutely beautifully for us recently. It took me a while to realise that the character is just a little naive, rather than the player being dumb. When I figured it out, though, I was in love.

It all depends, but sometimes letting yourself be tricked or not be tricked has a bigger purpose. God or mortal.

Reminds me of the thread Saltaern once made when he spoke about his bellyaches concerning interactions with the divine while regent of Hashan. Now, I do not know what happened back then, really, but I think he also posted some sort of question as to where possible limits to divine player activity lay or should lay. I am sure someone less tired than me could find that thread with a bit of forum searching.

otha, just one question: how would you know that the divine in question was not present in the room -during- the tell convo? I doubt that would show up on the bell tattoo, afterall?

Trying to rephrase the OP: is a non-admin God omniscient?

I would say not. Just like the Gods of Rome/Greece, they are more like high schoolers with a crapload of power. They can know what they desire so long as they are paying attention when it is happening (ooc: logged in). I'm pretty sure that perusing history like a scroll is a power only Maya and the other admin Gods have.

Spy RP is unfathomably stupid, being as it is a symptom of the 'I don't want my side to ever lose anything ever'/'I must win Achaea' sort of mentality that really hurts the game as a whole perhaps moreso than any other thing.

aye, that is why I would think that the god in question simply -was- present without the two mortals being aware.

@ Rynn

^

I don't understand why spy RP would automatically equal to "I don't want my side to lose ever / I must win Achaea"?

It's not that it automatically does. It's that it usually does.

Oh I don't know. That depends, too. It makes perfect sense that we would hand-pick certain citizens and send them on their way to 'get converted' now and then. Especially considering how easily permanent enemies are entirely forgiven and inducted at the drop of a hat.

That said, though, I think "spies" should be limited to long-established characters who have an actual reason to do it. None of this Celeris or Gaisei business. Or passing info in "OOC" messages and on OOC clans then crying it was not IC when you get caught spying. That stuff is ridiculous all around.

Because it's usually that the "Spy" is an alt of another guy who's side they're spying for, in my experience. Otherwise, I wouldn't know!

Otherwise, I know that the Divine can indeed be in the room without anyone knowing, screen tells, and other such things. So it's not too far off to think that whatever Divine it was could have just been sitting there with their hands inches from your neck and you didn't notice it.

aye, plus I doubt the divine would even need to be in your very room, to be honest. just in the realms at the same time.

Well, I would imagine that there would be a few places the Divine couldn't see into. Like, I wouldn't expect Pentharian to be able to listen in on a Mhaldorian council meeting, or Vastar to be able to seek out things under the Sea, or anything like that. At least, not without expending some or a lot of effort to be able to, depending on the circumstances and such.

Based on his interactions with Otha. At first, they knew aboslutely nothing about it. They helped the plot along quite nicely. I log off and go to bed. Come back to a message containing all the details of the plot that they could not have known without checking tell logs. At the same time, the message itself suggests that absolutely no players other than those directly involved knew of it.



Otha was long established in the SL, not like he was created to be a spy-alt.

In practical in-game terms, what is the difference between a divine gathering information by hovering over a conversation completely unbeknownst to anyone and retroactively finding what was said. In either case, you have absolutely no idea if someone will catch what you saying, and you're powerless to stop it. So why would you be okay with one, but not the other?

I have no idea what the latest kerfuffle is about (I'm guessing something very serious, like someone said Sally liked Bobby and then someone else probably got egged). Generally speaking though, I think it's bad form for the divine to actively aid their followers in taking on another group, no matter what the means of conflict might be.

Even more generally, does anyone post these topics out of "curiosity"? It's like some prosecutor shouting accusations at an empty chair. The problem with bitching about the divine on the forums is that they will never respond - and they shouldn't, since taking on every "poor victimized me" case would require another division of IRE.

Otha deserved everything he got and then some. Probably more than that even.

I really posted this out of curiosity as to how Achaea views the Divine - All-encompassing beings (Christianity) or simply immortals (Greek/Roman). The event brought up was used an example of how these differences can exist in Achaea. I don't expect anything to change or any pity parties, I just wanted to know how others viewed the gods. I probably could've posted this in the RP section.

The difference between proactively monitoring someone and retroactively monitoring everyone is huge. It is similiar to being everywhere or limited to only place. Many religions have split up over less.

edit: nvm, you already know my opinion

Sidonia, this post has nothing to do with Otha's RP.

Everything to do with how religion is established in Achaea.

Thank you for staying on topic.

nothing to see here

I would probably tend to say because the one thing (monitoring tells, messages of an adventurer present while being present oneself) is from all perspectives clean IC , whereas accessing conversation information later by going through game system-logs (what Otha seems to suspect, if I understood him correctly) somehow feels a bit too OOCish for me, platform wise*. Now, I am of course only talking (here) about game logs that the system keeps. Not about a scenario in which for instance another divine that indeed WAS present and actually heard what was said, later provided the conversation information to a befriended/allied divine. That would be totally okay RP for me again - and it could also have very well been the case here. An allied celani or befriended divine to the divine Otha is talking about overhearing what was said and later informed the Otha's divine.

Not sure whether I could phrase myself understandable enough, it is a bit late and I am rather tired.

*as in...game system logs are obviously used for stuff like ISSUE rulings if found necessary, but ISSUES are OOC.

Like everything else, spy RP can be done really well. It just usually isn't. I agree with whoever said if long established characters can pull it off, why not? But I really despise alts made just for that purpose (or clans, or AIM for that matter). I seen it done well (both by folks on my side and folks on the other side) but I've more often seen it done badly. As far as the OP goes, I don't see the gods as knowing everything, but nearly. I see them as flawed as well. They would have to be, because they can't all be right. Except Babel. He's right. That last part's a joke. Should be self-evident, but you never know.

Use MSN you noobs

Also some of the best RP I have had between good and evil was were there was a lot of OOC communication between both sides and players worked together for their characters to have a great event IC.

That being said though I don't think Divine should be putting any time and energy into anything petty like spying or messing over individuals at all. There is a huge vacuum of positive and constructive Divine interaction into Achaea and that should be the only thing Divine are allowed to put time and effort into. IRE should mandate it.

also <3 Phaestus and Babel for being so visible and active in that way.

Yeah, it was a fairly rhetorical question on my part. I think most would answer as you did, including myself had I eaten a sandwich this morning instead of oatmeal.

My point was more that it's a relatively artificial distinction. Speaking practically again, the player is completely incapable, using in-game means, to prevent either means of monitoring (that is, regardless of whether it's during real time or retroactive). Furthermore, the end result is identical: the divine finds out what was said and now possesses that information.

If I had to guess, I think the reason people may see it as crossing a line is only because they see the 'tells' command (or other history functions) as an OOC ability, along the lines of rummaging through your logs, while 'tell' is more IC, as it is actually used for communication. However, in an IC sense, it seems to me that it is more of a stretch to say that a 'god' couldn't have heard what you said. The main reason our characters would think a divine can't hear them is because as players we know that these 'divine' actually have shopping and television watching to do.

Basically, I don't think this is an Achaean philosophy question of omniscience or not. I think it's purely a gaming sportsman-like conduct issue. In that regard, I think the divine shouldn't be concerned with peeking at all, whether in real time or after the fact. It encourages people to use OOC means of communication, and things are much more interesting when there are limits to what is known. But before I get too judgmental, if I could eavesdrop on whomever I wanted I would be completely shameless in harvesting everything up. Clearly I lack a moral compass.

The gods can do whatever they wish. The Achaean system doesn't have to be modeled after Christian or Greco-Roman deities. It can, in fact, sample from both. Or neither.

This thread would be much more fun with the name and shame of said divine!

And that divine really pwned Otha's "plot" whether it was good RP or not, I'm not sure.

The problem is that we only ever see one side of these so called conspiracies.
And even then, half truths and conjecture make up most of the view.

I do think that in order to be a spy of the 'lol' variety, you're going to have to be a member of an organization that deity patrons, and in doing so you give consent to however that Divine wants to handle you. If Pentharian (aka P. Diddy or Master P) were to catch me spying on the Church (lol), I'd fully expect that he'd be able to tell others in that organization, and that that organization would have the leeway to deal with me as it saw fit. If it weren't an Achaean God - if it were a normal member - no one would care. It wouldn't be a big deal. Why should we care if a God is protecting an organization s/he represents?

In short: you don't get to complain if you're actively trying to undermine an organization through espionage. You're not eavesdropping or finding something out by happenstance or a contact; you're betraying the organization of which you are a member, likely stifling whatever player-organized event or action is going to happen, and more than likely preventing any other such occurrences from happening. The game does not need less player-organized events; the game needs more.

EDIT: especially in a game such as this, where you're not given the benefits of knowing people IRL, you sort of have to act on the assumption that the people are acting in good faith to make the game a more interesting and therefore better place. Spy RP really does undermine that sort of thing, hence one of the many ways that this sort of thing is bad for the game.

I think spy RP is good and interesting, but I wouldn't really expect a God to look the other way in a "real" situation either. Obviously if he can see everything and know everything it makes sense that he would discover you and pass on information? When planning things like this I believe it is necessary to take the Divine management into consideration, who may or may not be easier to fool then the actual mortal members of the organization.

Serpentlord treason, why didn't anyone else think of that?

Agreed, I'm fine with a divine looking through logs of the past. Assuming it's not like this:

ORDER MEMBER: Lord <blah> I think that <whoever> is spying.
GOD: Ok, I'll look into the past and see what they did, can you give me a time on this activity?

I would consider this wrong. However, if after this that divine looking through the activities of said spy, that would be ok. However, I would find it a lot more interesting if the divine just hinted to the effect of what was going on any made their order members to the actual counter-espionage. This would be a lot more fun for everyone involved.

You are soooo biased.



()

In Achaea, much like their mortal counterparts, some Divine are born short-sighted and incompetent.

Yes, but hopefully this the RPed short-sightedness and incompetence.

Hell, I don't even know the full story, and Katia is Thoth's order head.
It's just another case of 'yawn, someones betrayed the serpent lords again, let's await their complaint on the forums'
At least Daes' was humourous in his attempt to blame a god for stifling his roleplay.

I was being deliberately hypocritical by accusing you of bias when I myself am ridiculously biased in favor of Babel.

At least you didn't lash out at me!

I think any of them can. It doesn't look like what we see, but it is a version. But that would mean they WANT to spend hours going through thousands of lines. Not my version of a good time.

I don't get what the point of spying is anyways.

There's no information that any organization knows or holds that is valuable, at all.

I still doubt that any god players beyond Maya (and whoever has to rule ISSUES or fix Bugs or such) go through system-game-logs. As mysterious as it might still be to Otha how that one divine first didn't know anything, and then did - I think there are various absolute good explanations that one could think of, outside that divine actually opening the big systemlog file and searching for "Otha".

You're absolutely right. It would be purely for the RP, and even then I think 90 percent of the time that type of RP fails miserably.

Are you seriously still Shallamese? And not enemied to Cyrene? This is why I don't log into Achaea anymore. You should have been enemied the first time you sent the messenger boy to his death, then killed repeatedly. I was within hitting enter to quit Cyrene for that BS, but instead I ranted and whined about it on CT for a little while. While I'm here making idle convo: Gorlasintan wth is the point of killing the newb messenger boy? Does Mhaldor have a chelp 'dumbassthingswecandotoannoypeople' list?

Or am I just forgetting how to RP? That doesn't sound very RP to me though.

And Xenomorph keeps slaying an elderly woman or some crap. No one really cares about that though... I think he just wants a wittle attention too!

You sir need a new hobby.