I'm going to simulate a public post in order to try and explain this properly. Do forgive me if I screw up the rhetoric.



Cyrene replies no. Raids ensue to do the following things: Kill off all of the denizens, shrines, kill the elected leaders. [Not necessarily at the same time]. Dialogue will commence with the two cities. Either Cyrene eventually submits [results to follow] Or Mhaldor cuts its losses.

OCCUPATION



Mhaldor appoints a regent on Cyrene's council to ensure that people aren't breaking whatever sanctions Mhaldor places on Cyrene, and who will be able to enforce said sanctions. Apollyon or Shaitan will be made a citizen of the city. Life goes on until Cyrene has the strength to repel Mhaldor somehow.

In the above instance, Mhaldor sets clear goals [admittedly, they could be a bit more specific] which will give everyone a chance to react accordingly.

This is just a suggestion to how conflict can develop and raids in Achaea can have a purpose if we work together and allow it to. Certainly there are flaws in this example, but what do you all think about it.

No city in Achaea will allow anything like this to happen, ever.

The way it is now, enough damage cannot be inflicted upon a city for a city to even think of surrendering. See: Cyrene, Shallam. Despite the veritable ass-pounding they have taken at certain times, they either just qq (Shallam) or get all proud about dying a lot and hold the belief that even if every citizen is killed back to Minia they will still win if you stop killing them for whatever reason (Cyrene).

Probably the best way to convince a city it needs to surrender is to live in it, and both sides whine about that.



Actually, if you continuously killed Blu and ensured that he was dead during a Blufest, Cyrene'd probably surrender.

Gorly ninja'd me, I see.

The only case where I've seen a city surrender was Shallam during the war some years back during Rho's reign. Back then I think Ashtan basically sat in Shallam for a whole day though.

Basically, it's an interesting idea, but with the playerbase, it's unlikely it will ever be used (see: current war system).

This is a shame, because a defiant 'no' in the face of someone 10x as strong as you (just because they can't do permanent damage) gets old.

This would be pretty neat if it ever happened, honestly I wouldn't mind too much if I logged in one day to find Cyrene the property of Mhaldor. I'm not sure why my reaction would be, but it would certainly make life interesting. The problem with setting something like this up is that the war that would force a city to accept domination by a foreign city would be very long and boring, not to mention really not fun to much of the population of the city. If it was fun then the city would just continue the war and not surrender. Basically, people would have to RP being tired of the war, when OOC they are enjoying what is going on if the whole process is going to be fun/interesting.

As has been said, permanent damage to a city isn't feasible. Didn't they put a war system in place a long time ago and Ashtan fought its way to Shallam's walls in a few days? The same general thing will happen. It's a wonder there is still opposing sides in this game as it is.

Well if you look at the real world why are there still opposing sides?

the main reason is that people lose a lot when wars occur, so they are generally avoided.
this doesn't apply to achaea since dying stinks, but it's not literally the end of the world.

A secondary point follows from this main one: since most people don't want to have wars they try to keep them from happening.
Achaea really has no "peace-keepers" to do this. Eleusis really has no interest in doing this. Mhaldor, for obvious reasons. Ashtan again for reasons. Shallam for the opposite reasons. Cyrene, because they don't really like fighting (in general), so although peace is important combat is not the preferred way to get there. Hashan, honestly I don't know much about Hashan's views, IG Irion sees them as a motley assortment of traders and thieves with no loyalty other than money. I have no idea if this is accurate though.

So we need a peace keeper to keep opposing sides in achaea. the peace keeper so far has been kind of like, "I don't care what you do to me!", and the "issue effect".

The bolded is what I would like to see Hashan portrayed as, though it's often more a case of, "Lol, wats a hashan."

Also, the reason I said it's surprising there is opposing sides in Achaea is because dying isn't fun, as you said. There is nothing stopping people from globbing onto the powerhouse org when they die. That's probably what happened to Ashtan. Anyways, Achaeans are usually pusses about losing, so I just find it odd everyone hasn't latched on to one strong city.

Hashan has a retarded identity crisis, with some people trying to be knights, others trying to be thieves, some wanting to be paladins and others wanting to be apostates, and almost everyone else thinking that that's okay.

edit: but that's another thread entirely.

Personally, I think total subjugation of a city would be great rp. I imagine Mhaldorians and the like walking through Cyrene (so not hitting totems) and sneering at guards, citizens, Blu, et cetera while a group of Cyrenian fighters meets somewhere out of sight (ship or off-plane) to form a resistance band. When the resistance and its members are uncovered, the Mhaldorian Overseers brand the resistance fighters as enemies of -Cyrene- and the resistance fighters have to raid their own city to reclaim it.

Of course, taking/reclaiming a city would be a many-month process (perhaps with some Divine guidance!).

*Just musing, not an actual idea unless enough people like it.

Knights have no -ing god damn place in Hashan. Especially our paladin. And I succeed at what I do, it's not my fault the rest of the city is autistic.

EDIT: Devo users have a place in Hashan when I start getting bliss.

Actually that's pretty much what I was envisioning. The whole under-ground resistance thing sounds like it would be a lot of fun to do.

I like the idea of permanent damage or irreversible consequences for losing a war or raid. I also like the idea of expanding territory or fighting for natural (or manufactured) resources that would actually give people a reason to fight one another. Claiming land on another continent, for instance, for your particular organization and then chaptering there with the assistance of the divine to build structures, et cetera.

But let's not get optimistic. That'll never happen.

Unless chapter structures and territory-claiming flags cost a ridiculous amount of credits.

That would be by far the coolest thing I have ever seen in achaea. Unfortunately this will never happen because as it has been said people aren't willing enough to rp the losing faction, even for a bit.. so as long as there is no permanent damage that can be done by raiders, why give them the satisfaction of winning?

I will!

If only there were more people like you.

Edit: I am probably going to regret that comment at some point in the near future. Or at least get yelled at for it.

Why the - would you want more people like me? Am I not good enough or something!?

Anyway, I think the losing faction is fun, so long as they aren't losing because the other side is absolutely pounding the snot out of them. If a situation is winable, then being the longshot is fun.

War is not feasible in Achaea as it stands now. Not because there is no way to damage a city. Heh. That could easily be created.

War would need to be a proposition that is costly, even if you win. Very much so.

I'm less concerned with people being unwilling to RP the losing side. I'm more concerned with how easy it would be to subjugate an opposing city if a 'system' to do so was put into place, and how hard it would be for the losing city to 'reclaim' it. The combat ability of the opposing sides is rarely on even terms. Right now, Mhaldor could probably subjugate every city on the continent if they so desired. Even if they didn't, do you think Shallam or Cyrene could actually raid their own cities with enough success to reclaim them from Mhaldor? And I don't mean to complain about Mhaldor. Years back, it could have been Shallam that ruled everyone. It's still not fun when a bigger city can kick the weaker cities while they're down.

If there is an Admin-led roleplay event in which a city is subjugated, sign me up, but it would require that Admin oversight almost every step of the way. It would be too easy for players to abuse a game 'feature' through which they could occupy and control another city.

@Irion: A peacekeeping force would require a city that was as strong or stronger than the other cities, but have no interest in raiding or controlling them. In Achaea, might pretty much makes right, so I've little faith that the strongest city, whoever it may be, would have enough restraint to actually play a mediating peacekeeper.

I was thinking it would be interesting if a heavily raided city had a faction that broke off because it was tired of being raided, but all the city politics are covered, (plus that's essentially what happened with Cyrene) Would it be overkill to make a secluded Militaristic state? Or a state that would be on another land mass completely?

No matter how bad a faction is losing, they never have to surrender.

The city can never be damaged, guards are super-cheap in comparison to the city's coffers, totems and shrines can be put back, and a strong willingness to issue can protect a character from death.

It's a shame. Perhaps with some heavy Divine oversight and assistance this could work, but not with the player mentality as it is.

Why do Knights have no place in Hashan? All cities have a Knight system in place, except for Ashtan, as far as I know.

That doesn't mean that Hashan needs one too. Not everyone needs Knights, Hashan and Ashtan least of all.

Hashan's history doesn't support the need or ideal of Chivalry or Honour. Their roots in Darkness, and the spiritual, magical, and deceitful nature of the city's core classes are anathema to those ideals of Chivalry and Honour. Cyrene is a city with a sort of focus on Nobility and stature. Shallam's Paladin's are holy warriors and honourable avatars for the cause of good, and the same goes for the Infernals in Mhaldor.

Knights have no place in Hashan.

If Mhaldor takes over Cyrene, are they [Mhaldor] going to make the Cyreni move into ghettos?

Then make a move on Hashan, and only when Eleusis is in peril, will the world join in the War?

I find that extremely funny at the moment, because I am at FIU's library doing a research paper regarding the pact between between the Soviets and Nazis which led up to that war.

That's the way Aetolia functions, can't you see forgers going to war over there precious steel? Or the mudsexers in riots over the cloth they need to make their mudsexing clothes?

?????

Does not compute.

I think we could have some fun with this idea, "winning" or "losing" so long as it was done in a roleplay environment, and not as a hard-coded system, as others have suggested already.

Edit: Dibs on being appointed Regional Governor, Suzerain, and High Mucky-Muck of the Protectorate Formally Known As Cyrene, until we are run out of town by an angry, pitchfork-wielding interpretative dance troupe.

More like...

We're gonna get you.

Because.

You have it coming.