Just a quick idea, probably dumb:

Shrines of a city's Patron, within the city limits, should affect all citizens. For example, if an order member of Pentharian's Order, activates healing on a shrine in Shallam, every citizen of Shallam should get the healing benefit. Only order members would be able to activate the power. I think it would add a home-field advantage to a defending city.

Some might argue that only order members should get the benefits of Order shrines but why wouldn't the shrines of a city's Patron extend to all of those under his patronage regardless of devotion?

Why shrines? It brings issues of strategic placement of shrines to city's current patron, issues of dismantlement if patron is changed. Is shrine healing actually ever used?

No. Those useless Adikoi are not worthy of the Master's blessings.

I used shrine healing once> it's pretty nice.

You say that like Shaicton ever blesses the rest of us.

Bash.

If I could quote my obscenely high essence count I would.

I would certainly like that. It could even be akin to Church blessings in that the effects are staggered based on connection to the organisation. (full benefit, percentage, lower percentage, none) Or, perhaps, grant shrines to a city's Patron unique abilities the Order can invoke for the betterment of the city (rather than simply wb).

Alternatively, give the city defensive structures like shrines that can only be placed within city walls. These shrines take essence and a city must manage it's essence or bash for it. Likewise, would give players a choice between offering to a divine and helping a city out.

It sounds good, but it seems like it just might be a little unbalanced in the favor of the defenders except in times where the raiders outnumber the defenders. I'm split on it.

Well, in all fairness, the defenders should be at an advantage. Tweaking it so raiding is difficult, but not impossible, would be necessary.

Very true. Otherwise, I'd just hate to see a shrine system that has it so worldburn covers most of the city, you know?

Edit: Not that I expect that to happen. I think this is a pretty good idea. Only thing I am confused about is if it ment the shrine radius or the entire city. Also, healing of afflictions, health, mana, or combination of it?

Agreed. Shrines should be used strategically, but not overwhelmingly. That and it's just irritating to see the same damn shrine every five rooms.

With few exceptions, competent raiders always outnumber competent defenders. The exceptions, Santar, Poergh, etc.., don't raid for any meaningful reason anyway.

Something like this would be superior to using Order shrines.

Or we could fix guards.

The idea sounds like a decent fix to problems with the current raid system and I don't see any significant downsides, however the OP has a ridiculous avatar so I therefore suggest that we ignore everything s/he has said and all conversation that arose from it. Unfortunately, this will cause us to also ignore this post requesting we ignore it, thus trapping every frequenter of the suggestions forums in an endless cycle of ignoring the OP and its responses, which causes them to ignore this post, which causes them to stop ignoring this thread, which causes them to stop ignoring this post, which causes them to ignore the OP, etc. etc. until armageddon.

*shrug* either one will just lead to sub raids. It's not the mechanics of the game, it's the players, but I don't have any problem making it harder on the players to have their "fun."

I think we all agree that the only people that subraid are -.

Subraiding should never happen.

Also, I think having it be the Patron's shrines encourages enrollment in their Order, thus strengthening a theocracy. People worry about the number of shrines but really you only need one under a stack of guards to greatly assist the defenders.

In regards to worldburn: It doesn't really matter because raiders would just learn to immediately drop the shrine near their preferred raiding location.

Also, having it be the Patron promotes having exactly one (1) God's shrines in the city, which doesn't fit with any of them.

It promotes having one shrine, but doesn't make it necessary. I don't really think it's a problem for a city to have a majority of only one type of shrine. However, you don't need the ENTIRE city to be defensive zones, just key locations.

Shallam is a theocratic city, in theory, so this would only strengthen them.

Has it been that long since you've raided? If you have a strong defensive points, the raiders will just go to a part of the city that's weak. I seem to remember raiders choosing Deburr's in Shallam because there was an Agatheis shrine right outside of an indoor location.

Shallam's main defensive point was at the Gates. Having a shrine at the gates would assist in ranged defense.

Silas used Pentharian worldburn pretty much whenever he was around and there was a raid.

Shallam is a theocracy ruled by 3 divine.

There's a problem with promoting one type of shrine, especially because there is no city with one central divine.

Yes, and we all knew that he was a - and he admitted it too! It's like people that sub raid, automatic -s.

Anyway, Shallam can decide on which divine they want to support! Which one aside from Pentharian does anything anyway?

Lorielan griefs Cooper. I think that's a step in the right direction.

Death to 180RPers! (No offense, Cooper, I still love you)

A Te'Serran shrine?

I'm intrigued.

ETA: who would have perms? City leaders, council members, and security ministers?

I figured for simplicity only actual Order members would be able to activate the powers but every city would benefit.

Interesting idea. I'll see where this thread goes.

I think I like this suggestion better. Having city patrons' shrines play such a big role in city defense makes terrific sense for theocratic cities like Mhaldor or Shallam. But patrons play a completely different role in, say, Eleusis. Our patron, Vastar, is fine as a patron, but not particularly relevant to our actual values as a city. Not at odds, but not that relevant either, and in part because of that, not very many Eleusians are followers of him.

So with the system suggested in the opening post, a reasonably large percentage of people in Mhaldor or Shallam could simultaneously support their order and their city by offering, whereas nearly all Eleusians would have to choose between those two, and thus would have something of a disadvantage.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Eleusis to be more similar to Mhaldor and Shallam in this way, and for our patron to also be one of the primary nature deities. But that hasn't worked out, and it's not our fault, and I don't want us to get penalized even further when we already get the shaft with regard to divine interaction.

So I'd prefer if order and city matters just stayed separate, in a system like the one Laorir suggests. Then *everyone* has to choose between supporting their order and supporting their city, and that seems more fair.

Overall, I do like this idea a lot.

having it work off the Patron shrines makes diplomacy and etc actually a worthwhile endeavour in achaea. Atleast there will be an area where its not simply 'shut up and kneel because I can kill you' ' I can die a thousand deaths, so go ahead, I will never surrender'

...diplomacy does work in Achaea.

Also, I like the idea of having it based on a Patron's shrines, but there should be special exceptions for the Te'Serra and the Twins. Perhaps a mechanic more like the shrines of old, which have more interesting powers based on them. Shaitan/Apollyon's guys could raise one type and Pentharian/Lorielan/Mithraea's (if she ever comes back, anyway) the other. The other cities, not being theocratic, would have to have just one Divinity's shrines, probably the Patron's, but they should be a special type of shrine that works better, too, I think. Right now all you ever see is worldburn.

I think I'd rather they be Patrons shrines than random "defensive structures" in cities. I think making it shrines is also easier to code than creating a whole new system. This is biased toward Theocratic cities but why not? A city ruled by a God should naturally have certain advantages. I can only see this strengthening relations between cities and the Divine and make for more interesting transitions when cities change Patrons.

Just let Divine shrine in a city, where divine is Patron of said city, have a lot longer influence range (10-15 rooms?) without conflicting with ordinary 3 room range limit. So a Patron can have8-10 shrines in his city and be significant aid to the city defenders.

However lets calculate how powerful would be Paroxysm, Soulrend, cures, faithroot and healing up at the same time. Perhaps keep them as they are in 3 range and have half effect (half damage by paroxysm, soulrend. half heal by healing) in 10-15 range.

Putting this idea forth without increasing shrine range would put as back to square one. With current setup in each city there will be rooms that will not be covered whatever setup you try to apply. And even if there is, enemies will just hunt down or kill people to kill one shrine and they are left with higher advantage (time of raid, choice of ranged areawide/line of sight or melee fight, prepped totem, setup room with harmonics/vibrations/rites).

An idea based not only on shrines and Divinity but also on Patronage itself.

Instead of using currently existing shrines, add one tier above them.

Patronshrine: (Can only be constructed by the Divine Themselves)

Works the same as a normal shrine (order members can use commands, can be offered at, sanctified/defiled)

Is considerably larger then a normal shine (no more one shot defilement, I'm thinking on levels of millions of essence instead of a few hundred thousand).

At different levels of the shrine:

Dormant: No powers can be used.

Small: Healing can be initiated by an Order member for a city wide effect.

Medium: Cures and Damage can be initiated by an Order member, for a city wide effect at HALF effectiveness.

Large: Cures and Damage can be initiated by an Order member, for a city wide effect at FULL strength.

Huge: All normal shine powers can be used excepting worldburn by an Order member, for a city wide effect at FULL strength.

Only if absolutely full: Willing Sacrifice: an Order member may sacrifice themselves (losing a very drastic amount of personal experience, talking more then a level here, makes people want to defend more then possibly losing dragon to have an easy button) to initiate worldburn as a city wide effect.


By city wide effect, I mean hitting every room of defendable City, aiding those not enemied, hurting those enemied to the City.

All of these effects would cost Divine essence, at an increment of 20times their normal costs (as it's covering a lot more ground)

Raiders can throw some defilement at the shrine to keep its effects low if anything. Defenders can get very strong boosts if they put in the effort of actually filling their Patron's protective shrine. For Cities with multiple Gods, Since only the Gods can actually lay down this shrine, it's up to Them to choose who's essence pool will be drained by these abilities.

Raiders can be smart and do pre-emptive strikes to make sure the shrine is lower then full. Raids can have more RP then we're simply opposed, as in holy wars. Granted those are still just being opposed as well, but perhaps Patrons could throw around a few shouts at one another over time. Defenders have the home-turf advantage, even if they are traveling from other Cities to assist the one being attacked.

It would allow non-comms, the ability to greatly help the City by filling that shrine up, rather then somewhat help when they're actually organized and turned into Goryllin's zergling rush.

It would encourage all of the City to get a little bigger level wise, possibly organizing hunting trips and such with a common goal in mind. Some of the straggling Houses with dwindling membership might be able to latch onto the City's goals rather then fade out of existence. (I am not opposed to Houses fading out, but I just don't see it happening)

Hopefully it will encourage a slight bit more RP between Citizens and Divine, possibly bolstering Orders or allowing diplomatic power plays of, "My Order is what protects this City, I should be in office." Also, if you want a God's assistance and in some cases protection, you better be willing to work your rear off making sure you support them. No use having a Patronshrine of a Patron with next to no Essence, right?



All in all, it could be something for everyone in a City even outside of the Combat-Oriented circles, and allow defenders to have a stronger advantage (as they should have defending their home) against raiders.

Personally, if something like this gets implemented, I'd love to have it on a House level as well. Stronger Houses will have a greater deal of protection, but still need that diplomacy of having Order members within the House membership.

I do not like this idea.

Wattsee's idea is a poor one. Combat would devolve into bashing wars between dragons to raise the essence to worldburn any time an enemy force is in the city.

I disagree with Wattsee on this one, particularly the ability to worldburn your entire city no matter the cost. One shrine hiding under your guard stack shouldn't be able to shred a competent raiding party; it would make raiding completely impossible. While some people would enjoy this, and they may even be a majority, this is not an appropriate path for Achaea to take. Conflict needs to exist or Good and Evil are just people with mildly different viewpoints who still grind the same bashing spots. Raiding is an excellent source of conflict and discomfort, which is necessary to attain immersion in the world. I do feel, though, that having a single shrine that can do city-wide minor effects would be interesting and helpful, so long as this shrine is accessible. You would probably need to make guards unable to enter the room with the shrine under any circumstances, and while it should probably be stronger than your average shrine, I feel that millions of essence is a bit much. Perhaps two or three times stronger, but not ten. Bashing wars are lame.

I don't think shrines need to be upgraded at all. Keep their area of effect the same, just let it benefit all citizens. You don't need for the entire city to be a defensible zone, especially since most raid combat happens at range anyway. If cities want more of their city defensible, they can raise more shrines of their Patron. I find it way more interesting if cities have to decide how to design the defensive system rather than just buffing shrines until they cover the entire city. If a city wants to tear down all shrines of non-Patrons and just erect shrines of their Patron? Cool. If cities do not and leave only a few key locations defensible? Still interesting.

Edit: delete worldburn plz

If you consider bashing wars lame, don't get involved with that section of the game, hence the idea being multi faceted.

The millions of essence is also to ensure that the shrines really never get topped off, perhaps they could even have a slow decay attached to them. Similar to Icons (I know, everyone can rant about how much Icon's aren't worth it) if you -want- the advantage, work for it. If you don't want the other side to have an advantage, work against it. If you despise the possibility of one worldburn keeping raiders out of a city for ten- ish minutes, how about a compromise:

If Willing Sacrifice is enacted, the patronshrine drops a level of size just to below Huge. It will take millions of essence to get back up (again a reason for the insane size), you can come back in ten minutes and continue to wtfpwn raid as much as you'd like.

If you just don't care, keep raiding like normal. No one here is telling you that simply because a City has a patronshrine, you -have- to destroy it each raid. Unless one of the Mhaldor gods tells you folks to, in which case, suck up that Suffering, you'll be Stronger for it.

I was fairly sure everyone here was -for- having more difficult/challenging raids.

Also, if a Patron becomes displeased with the use of Their patronshrine, dismantle it. Why would Penth want His shrine buried under a guard stack? It's certainly not an honourable battle at that point. If Citizens only focus on that one shrine and let all the others get defiled, dismantle it. Citizens are not willing to fight for their Patron, why would the Patron fight for them? It's all give and take.

Also as a note: While no one will likely see Wattsee involved in raids (it really clashes with his mentality), I have partaken in quite a few, on both sides of the spectrum, and even across MUDs. So I'm not coming from a "you just don't understand raiding" standpoint. When raiding is easy as hell, it's boring as hell. Unless you get gratification from rubbing people's nose in it. When raiding is hard as hell, it's not really worth it. When it's balanced so it's a damn good challenge, it is more fun. When you can actually -change- something about the city you're defending/attacking, it becomes the most fun. Your actions have impact.

I still don't see the point or need in making a new type of shrine for this. I think it would work just fine by expanding the benefits of existing shrines to citizens.

Uh, aren't you Lupine, Wattsee? You of all people should know that millions of essence is not a lot at all. We dropped over a hundred shrines to Lupus over the course of a week (that's 10M essence to sanctify), and all of them were up shortly after they were destroyed. I once bashed 1M in less than a year and I rarely if ever bash. Every city would have it filled in a matter of days. And then all conflict would center around "target unsidhe" and hitting macros.

Worldburn is overpowered as it is; a worldburn with a 15 room range or worse, city-wide coverage is just fantastically stupid.

And while I agree with Jaizsur somewhat, I still want to see Evil shrines and Te'Serra shrines. If any other Gods want to make an alliance like that (Twilight/Valnurana/Ourania, for example), they should also get combination-style shrines.

I'm fine with allowing Evil shrines and Te'Serra shrines benefit all citizens, it makes sense from an RP standpoint.

Not Lupine.

And yes, I do realize why small amounts of essence are easy to get. Hence millionS, not a million. Also, notice that during those shrine wars, Mhaldor/allies (a large chunk of the playerbase) and the Lupine/allies (another large chunk of the playerbase) got to work -together- to actually do something. Player interaction, who would have thought it possible. If the shrine worked off, say 200million essence instead of 100k, even hunting-machine dragons would have to chug for a while to see the real effect of all that hard work.

And worldburn is meant to be a -last step- measure against those that would hurt the Order (and in this case the City Patroned by that Divine). It is meant to be overpowerd, do you think if a God was ticked at you and actually paid attention to you, you would survive Their wrath? It should be used sparingly, if at all, and in this case, I think I've already worked to appease the fear of someone spamming worldburn by the extreme costs, both personal, and on an essence level for the Divine and shrine. It is a last resort. It would only be acting once in a great while, if at all, and be used to level the playing field of a besieged city versus extremely well organized and defended raiders.

Again, it would also come to the Patron to be paying attention on how their Patronshine was being used/abused. You mentioned the Lupine shrine war. Mhaldor destroyed 100+ shrines in a week. Did you see a worldburn because of it? No. It wasn't needed. It wasn't a threat to Lupus or His Order. It would be like getting an RPG to handle a mosquito. But take, for instance, several hour raids of a certain Master Crystal, where raiders were so well defended in enemy territory, that they were AFK or playing chess. Why would it be so hard to believe that a Divine Patron of that City wouldn't mind laying a little aggression onto those who hurt His/Her/Their City but just aren't being beaten by mortal means? And why would a Divine who's offering this high level symbol of Their protection of the City, be stopped short by simple distance, especially something so small as a few rooms.

Wattsee's idea would work if there were a long delay for the worldburn to start. As in, 60 minutes or so. That's enough for the raiders to finish whatever it is they set out to do and get out. If they're not out by the time limit, either they're not going to achieve anything or they're just looking to PK defenders.

This is a good idea. If you get hit with worldburn every time you raid, you're just fighting a war of attrition, hoping your raider's morale holds out longer than the enemies essence. No fun. But if there's a time limit, it gives raids a greater sense of urgency. I'm not exactly a veteran of a hundred battles, but I think that'd make raiding more fun.

Just leave worldburn as it is. Some raids have objectives that take longer than 60 minutes. Worldburn is pretty silly anyway.

I would not enjoy a city defense system, even if it kept my city 100% safe, that would force me to bash in the amounts we're talking. I like to play Achaea for much more than bashing, and so do many, if not most, other players.

I'm all for letting the City Patron's shrines help citizens and allies, and hurt city enemies. I'm okay with the Evil/Te'Serran shrines, if that's feasible. Past that, I don't see a reason to re-invent the wheel.

First of all, I do not agree to all points of Wattsee's idea (worlburn, one shrine having millions of essence). However what can be done is patron shrine being effective at Dormant (0 shrines outside of any city/temple) small (5 shrines outside) medium (10 shrines outside) large (15 shrines outside) huge (20 shrines outside). Remove worlburn from this. Essence cost for each power use same as it is now.

This will push to more shrine wars. Fighters are still primary importance in raids, but bashers are still a lot of help as they put up shrines. This spreads out time, and those that don't usually login at times of raid (different timezones) are still capable of helping others.

If any city is motivated in raiding another city full time, they can order their hunters to dust enemy shrines and start raiding it as much as they can. However this limits griefer raiders who belong to no particular fraction but are raiding just to lol, as they don't have enough background support (hunters) to dust some shrines monthly, as they are raiding. Also gives defenders chance to quickly (in a single RL day) put up 10-15 shrines (a lot of organization and persistence required, or use millions of gold) and balance out odds even if they are at disadvantage combat wise.

I would love to see Te'sserra and Twin Lord shrines, also some other deity alliance shrines.

Edit: also about shrine not having longer influence. Well this would lead to enemies taking out single shrine or taking spots to locations that can't be covered by any setup you apply to city (each city will have at least a few of this type spots). It will give us only benefit of RPing out intra city conflict of diplomatic shrine wars. Not that it is bad, just drags us out of main problem - Defenders being at disadventage in raids, while it should be vice-versa.