Could we please have the bank's fee deducted when we put gold into the bank, and not when we taking it out?

Unless there is some way to surpass the bank's fee, ACCOUNTS is not an accurate portrayal of the money we have- only the money we had before we put it in the bank. This would make accurate withdrawals and accounting far easier than as it stands.

-B

Remove fees all together

There are at least a couple things that can use gold directly from the account without any fees. Clan dues is the only thing I can think of without checking, but I'm fairly sure there are others.

I agree with Azu, delete bank fees all together as banks are biggest thieves in the game.

CITYWITHDRAW <ministry> <gold>.

I agree. Delete banks.

i also would love to see bank fees go but if they cant, I like the idea in the OT

I believe there should be a quarterly or annual safe-keeping fee. Banks are not traditional banks as in the fact that they do not create profit through investments. Rather they are lockboxes, and a fee should be created for this service.

Edit: I suck at spelling.

I agree, and I'm fine with this. The OP would nerf things that don't take taxes already, like CITYWITHDRAW and clan dues. While this also would nerf them, you at least have more of a chance to withdraw tax-free if you do it before the next taxing.

Or learn 3rd grade math and this won't be a problem.

I like this idea...but it'd be such a *ahem* to go dormant for a while only to log on and find that you're bankrupt/dirt poor.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a big problem, but it is a minor inconvenience.

It's not learning third grade math, it's the hassle of doing it all the time.

I like this idea. Keep the fee the same but take the gold when you deposit. BRING ON THE STAMP!

This is why God invented triggers. This would all be frighteningly easy to script. We shouldn't waste coder time on it (even if it's only a few minutes of coder time) when you can spend a couple of minutes of your OWN time fixing it.

If there isn't any cost to having your gold in banks, then there's no reason to EVER keep it outside of the bank. As it stands, you have to decide whether it's worth it to protect your gold. Personally, I think that the decision is a bit too easy given how insanely low the bank fee is now, but getting rid of the bank fee entirely is just dumb. (To those who weren't around, it used to be higher and was lowered quite substantially due to player whining. Which also means that it probably won't be lowered again.)

I like the periodic bank fee idea though.

The fees are only 0.5% now instead of the 2% they used to be, right? If so, I think the fees are fine, there's no need to lower them more or remove them entirely.

Banks would still be inconvenient because of the hassle of having to head over to the bank, withdraw, then head to whatever you want to buy, as opposed to seeing it and just grabbing the gold out of your pack. I agree the fee itself shouldn't be done away with, if only because the bank couldn't economically exist without it and the game world has enough things that break immersion as it is. That being said, I really couldn't care less when said gold is deducted.

OP is a good idea. Wouldn't change anything in reality, but would make things more convenient and as you say, BANKACCOUNTS more accurate.

Dex says


EDIT: Jus' followin' orders!

It's uh, .995 and if you deal with small amounts it's inaccurate (due to the fact it will always add at least 1 gold tax).

This is what I use in MUSHclient, in a 'tax' alias:

SO to clean up the OP, perhaps there should be a 'gold in this account'/'available gold' come up when ACCOUNTS is entered.

And yes, it's possible to code this yourself. Yes, I could knock it up in five minutes. But I feel it should be open to everyone.
BUT
One of the other reasons for requesting the deduction of gold when it's deposited is because when I go to WITHDRAW 1000 GOLD. I want 1000 gold. Not 995 gold.

Three solutions to this;

• Deduct gold on deposit.
• Work out the bank's fee and add it to your withdrawal.*
• Subtract fee from remaining gold in the account instead of the withdrawal.**

*A pain when you're in a rush to catch that forestal when they're about to leave realms (etc etc).
**This causes the trouble when withdrawing 1000 gold from an account with 1000 gold, leaving -5 gold in the account.

As an additional disclaimer, I was unaware certain positions had powers to withdraw without the deduction. My idea was not broad enough for this to remain a privilege. And to reiterate, I am not campaigning for a removal of bank fees, but a reallocation as to when they're deducted.

-B

or give us credit cards

Ok, maybe not credit cards per say, but how about bank notes that you can redeem at a bank for gold?.


Mishgul tells you hunting runes?

reply sure

<rune spam>

Oh, no gold, accept bank notes?

sure,

Mishgul is attempting to give you a bank note that is redeamable for 1000 gold at any bank, agree to accept bank note

agree

go to bank

Now I can either go to redeem it for gold or to just deposit. If I deposit it just puts it in my bank acount (takes taxes out ahead of time like OPs ) If I redeem it gives me 1000 gold? But Mishgul paid the taxes up front.


Benefits: I need a very large amount of herbs worth 100's thousands of gold. I put it in the bank it can't be stolen but taxes are taken out when I put it in so I can build it up little by little and know hey sweet I have that 500K I finally needed. I can go to druid and

CREATE BANK NOTE FOR DRUID FOR 5000000
you are attempting to create bank note for druid worth 500,000 you must Agree for this to happen
AGREE
you give a bank note worth 500,000 to druid

msgs Druid has redeemed your bank note

Bank Accounts You have no money.

But I think the idea could work and in cases of very large amounts of gold it would be benifical because credit prices go up and down and its hard to really put a exact amount to that, because I could buy credits at 5100 5200, 5000, and the prices go up and down this way I can save up to 500,000 even and just give them the amount without having to worry about theft, but I would still be paying a tax for that luxury to keep the gold safe.

They're working on that already.

Announce News #2978
Date: 2009-04-01
From : Maya, the Great Mother
To : Everyone
Subject : Aeonic turbulence

We have been exhaustively investigating sources of lag on our server for
some time now, and we have found two major causes. Firstly, the amount
of gold generated and stored on each character contributes hugely to the
dreaded aeonic disturbances. Gold is constantly being generated,
removed, or otherwise moved around in a way that over-stresses our
servers - for purchasing from shops, from gold drops while bashing,
quests, gambling, purchases from the credit market, et cetera.

In order to improve server performance, we will soon be implementing a
new system to replace gold sovereigns. Each character will receive a
'cheque card' on which will be stored a monetary value to represent
gold. Instead of getting gold sovereigns when you complete a quest or
kill a denizen that would drop gold, for example, the cheque card's gold
value would increase. We will be getting rid of personal bankaccounts,
though they will still exist for organisations. (Depositing and
withdrawing from banks will be changed to work with the cheque cards.)

Isn't that basically going to be the end of gold thievery? I probably won't even need a pack anymore!

I lol'd

Edit: Also, banks are fine, they aren't broken like many other things.
If it ain't broke- don't fix it.

...I give up.

Do what I do
Don't use banks!

Mmmmm.. unstealable credits.

This

I don't see where anyone else said this in this thread, so I will:

The fees go directly to the city in which the bank belongs. Running a city is -very- expensive, those fees are a tax to let you keep your pillar/scimitar/orb/shops. Your financial people should be 'appropriate'ing the bank regularly to draw the gold in.

The problem of calculating the fee would remain if you deposit into someone else's or an org's account. If you have to deposit 5000 gold into Oakstone for example, you would have to deposit more (ehm calculate) to get exactly 5000 in.

So, leave it as it is, at withdrawal.

Aren't regular deposits more common than donations? Therefore wouldn't it be better to shave the calculations off of the more common function? Or is there some reason that donations need to be more precise than regular deposits?

If you had a fine to pay to an organization. It would make if more difficult to pay your fine (not really though).

Uh, if they withdraw what you donated then they would pay the fee anyways... so why is it a problem trying to get the exact number? Just add to the log (x donated 1234 gold, and 12 was taken out for taxes).

Money taken out at deposit doesn't matter for cities, because the tax money goes to the city anyway.

I have moved several million through my Shallam bank account in the last few IC years, I am willing to move this activity to any city that is willing to reward me for such business.

And on a serious note, moving the deduction to the depositing side of things seems fine to me.

Though how people can't do a bit of simple math and work it out is beyond me.

To be fair (kinda), the fee that is taken out isn't perfectly calculated server-side. For example, if I withdraw 1005 gold (100, + .5% (I'm also not sure if this is the number I used, but it was some perfect multiple of 1000 with the exact tax)), I'd only end up with 999 gold. This isn't really terribly noticeable, but with larger numbers (think lottery taxes), this becomes more apparent. I assume floating point numbers are used somewhere in the calculation.

Even still, it's not terribly difficult to get the right amount of gold.

I guess it rounds down always, because if you use decimals instead of keeping it at whole sovereigns then...

1005 x 0.5% = 5.025
1005 - 5.025 = 999.975
which should be 1000 but but can be rounded down to 999, iunno I am not IC to even test it.

I also think people should never be in a situation where the gold amount to the exact single sovereign matters, just have a small buffer on you, or go kill a rat out of the frustration or something.

You're doing X * 1.005. The problem with that is you're not counting tax on the 0.005 part. What you really want is a number that when multiplied by 0.995 (1.000 - 0.005) will end up being the original amount. To get that, divide by 0.995. Achaea discards the fraction, so you should do this as well. Also, Achaea has a minimum tax of 1 gold, so you have to take into account that.

The end result looks like this:

The larger of the two:
X / 0.995 (discarding the remainder)
X + 1


For those interested, here's how I get the X / 0.995.

x = amount you withdraw
y = amount you end up with

Given y = 0.995x find x.

Solution:
y = 0.995x
y/0.995 = 0.995x/0.995
y/0.995 = x

It truncates, yes. I tested a while back

My technical assumption is that Achaea implicitly casts a float value into an integer. 5 and 3 are integers, but 5 / 3 results in a float. "int withdraw_amount = 5 / 3" produces a float and stuffs it into an integer, so it loses the fractional part.

EDIT: In relation to Trevize's post above, Trevize posted (and I helped with) a post on the MUSHclient clan's blog here, on the tax withdrawal topic.

You people and math. Geez.
I failed adv. Algebra (which is actually just one step up from geometry) 3 times in a row, and still never passed it.

Which is why I can't ever figure these things out from Achaea.

You and your logic are not welcome here. >:(

Suddenly I'm proud to have failed it only once...

I agree with the current fees, think of it as a ATM withdraw. However all my bank accounts accumulate interest...except in achaea... what do yall think?

No interest.

Where does the interest money come from, from an RP perspective? Banks are not borrowers or lenders, so they don't have scam profits to pay interest with.

If taxes go to cities, I imagine the interest would also. That would ruin city income.

What about at least letting us use our bank accounts to buy credits listed on the market?