(Ashtan): You say, "Ok, this is going to be a really dumb question, but does nightshade work at night?"

(Ashtan): Malic says, "Would be pretty funny if it did though."

(Ashtan): You say, "Well techinally the moon just reflects the suns light so your still getting hit by sun."

(Ashtan): Malic says, "The moonlight is probably tolerable."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "What makes you think the moon is merely a reflection of the sun? Why is the Witch Queen not a source of illumination on Her own?"

(Ashtan): You say, "Polar opposites and just like how a mirror reflects light, is how the moon does it, and when there is a ecplise it doesn't give off its own light but shadows the sun. Hence doesn't produce its own light."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "What proof exists that the moon does not emit its own light?"

(Ashtan): You say, "See above statement."

(Ashtan): Gamoneterik says, "That's not proof."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "The goddess Herself emits light. Why should Her emblem not do so?"

(Ashtan): You say, "Because main example is just simple eclipse if the mooon did emit its own light source it would shine forth when the moon goes in front of the sun..it doesn't."

(Ashtan): Malic says, "If the moon doesn't glow when there is an eclipse how does that not show that it doesn't produce light?"
3740h, 3850m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:9:19:890)
(Ashtan): Gamoneterik says, "It does glow, red."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "There is precisely one eclipse in recorded history. That was created by Slith, forcing the conjunction of Lunastra, Somnustra, and Noxtra into a permanent state. While, yes, the mystic influence subdued the power of the moon, it had nothing to do with the natural progression of light."

(Ashtan): You say, "That just affirms that its bending the light from the sun, such as sapience does during the evening and its red then. The moon does not give off light its just a reflection of the suns light."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "You've absolutely no proof of that."

(Ashtan): You say, "And you've no proof of your statement. As they say, Absent of Proof is not proof of absence."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Ourania is hardly a reflection of Mithraea."

(Ashtan): Malic says, "If the moon produced its own light wouldn't it always be a full moon?"

(Ashtan): Diminish says, "You'd have to ask Ourania that."

(Ashtan): You say, "I could very well make the argument that Sarpis is not the most powerful being in the cosmos because he has to have come from somewhere, and who made him?"

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "That's wholly beside the point. And, obviously, he's not. Maya is."

(Ashtan): Skarash says, "You'd be wrong but yes you could argue it all you want."

(Ashtan): Gamoneterik says, ""If the moon produced its own light wouldn't it always be."

(Ashtan): Skarash says, "Unless you want to quibble."

(Ashtan): Gamoneterik says, ""If the moon produced its own light wouldn't it always be a full moon?" now that's one of the dumbest statements I've heard."

(Ashtan): Khyran says, "If you are to speak of Lady Ouranias part of the realm I suggest you talk to her."

(Ashtan): Katalyst says, "Clearly a full moon is directly effected upon which angle Estach is standing."
3740h, 3850m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:13:39:453)
(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Ha."

(Ashtan): You say, "Maya was created by Sarpis, therefor Sarpis is more powerful than Maya. Now the moon is unable to give off its own light because of the way it moves through the heavens when at differnt times during the month it changes because its not a proper reflection."

(Ashtan): You say, "Such as when you move a mirror and reflect light."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "No, he's not."
3740h, 3850m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:13:57:390)
(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "I was there when he relinquished his power."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "And the moon does shed its own illumination. I've seen moonfire with my own eyes."

(Ashtan): Aloria says, "So no, Darkshade does not work at night."

(Ashtan): Gamoneterik says, "Heh."

(Ashtan): You say, "Moonfire is a magical spell not actual moon light."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "The moon changes because it represents the triple aspects of Ourania. The Wyrden sisters, maiden, mother, and crone. What, as if the power of a god would be so fickle as to wax and wane because of a time of the month."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Moonfire is an aspect of the moon. No spell, but property, evoked by its mistress."

(Ashtan): You say, "Would said the moon was a god? I believe you yourself stated it was a symbol."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "An emblem of Ourania, yes. She is the moon, and the moon is She. A simple concept, if you'd the wit to grasp it."
3740h, 3850m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:17:0:593)

(Ashtan): Gamoneterik says, "The moon is imbued with the Ourania's power as much as the sun is with Mithraea's."

(Ashtan): You say, "Oh I have the wit. I also know that the moon is just a reflective surface and just reflects light from the sun."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "You cannot know that. There is no proof! Just a misguided assumption."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Ourania will not cease to exist when Mithraea is cast into nothing."

(Ashtan): You say, "Why is my assumption misguided when yours is not?"

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "I've been in the presence of the goddess. I know full well that Her realm is not dependent upon that of the sun. She is an entity unto Herself. The sun is merely another god in the celestial sphere."

(Ashtan): You say, "I don't think the moon nor sun or really gods themselves. Its not logical that Gods would be so stuck to a particlar pattern that goes in and out day after day."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "If you think neither the sun nor the moon are representative of any gods, then I think you'd best bow out of the discussion."

(Ashtan): You say, "Which is it. Representive of gods or Gods themselves. I don't know how to construct my argments here when you keep changing the rules?"

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Why are the two mutually exclusive?"

(Ashtan): You say, "Because a representive of a god could be placed into the same pattern of medoricy day after day. when I believe the Gods themselve would not fall into such repetion."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Pattern of what?"

(Ashtan): You say, "Sun over head each day, Moon over head each night Every night."

(Ashtan): You say, "Unless the gods have less free will than we do and can not think for themselves."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Does Twilight not conjure darkness every night?"

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Do you not feel His presence each and every dusk?"

(Ashtan): You say, "I see it getting darker when the sun goes down, then the moon comes up, every day its the same thing."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Every mortal extant, if they pay attention at all, notices Lord Twilight drawing Stygian darkness across the land."

(Ashtan): You say, "This is why I do not believe that it is the gods themselves unless they like I stated have no free-will at all and they can only do these repetive things. Which supports my agrument that the moon is just a reflective surface of the sun."

(Ashtan): Skarash says, "No it doesn't support your argument at all, you're making an assumption based on absolutely nothing."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "How does that in any sense support your argument? How does the free will of the gods have any relevance whatsoever to the idea that the moon is simply a reflective surface for the sun?"

(Ashtan): You say, "Because it it was a an actual god that gave off its/her own light it wouldn't go in the exact same way every night."

(Ashtan): You say, "But if its just something that goes through the night sky that reflects the sun. that would make sense because it couldn't change its pattern."


(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "What? Only the hands of the gods could keep something so steady! As if something left on its own could maintain such steady cycles."

(Ashtan): You say, "508 ears after the fall of the empire and how far back before then. don't you think it would change its pattern during those times if it was a an actual living god."

(Ashtan): You say, "There you go again. is it a god or is something being held steady?"

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "It has. When the efforts of Slith blocked the influence of Ourania from this plane."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "You've still not managed to assert that the two are distinct."

(Ashtan): You say, "I can't make any statements when you keep changing what we are talking about."

(Ashtan): Diminish says, "Since when does a Divine not have the right to repeat a process and still have free will? Did you ever consider that perhaps She does this for the sake of Sapience?"

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "I'm not changing at all, Horuce. The moon is both a symbol and a personification."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "As is the sun. As are the seas."

(Ashtan): You say, "Imyrr you are changing. I'm not arguing against you, just what your saying. "only the hands of the gods could keep something so steady!" This implies that it is not the god itself but something being held steady then you say that it is a personifaction of the god and is the actual god."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Your assumption of implication is not my fault, Horuce. The moon, being a personification of Ourania, abides by Her will. Without it, it would cease to be. One need look no further than the events of the Eternal Night. The influence of Ourania was blocked by the efforts of Slith, and during that time, the moon did not shine in the sky at all."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "If it were simply a physical object, blocking Ourania's influence would not affect it at all."

(Ashtan): Rexak says, "I feel like saying chelp language, ever 5 mins."

(Ashtan): You say, "Ok, this object you speak of is only a object once again based on the same pattern it keeps night after night, year after year. Unless it is that the gods have no free-will."
\
(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "It is not merely an object. If it were an object, Slith's machinations wouldn't have barred Ourania access to this plane."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "It's not a matter of free will. Ourania could surely change the moon to reflect Her will, just as Mithraea could change the sun. As, indeed, Her faithful have done with their rituals."

(Ashtan): You say, "Imyrr lets just agree to disagree. Because you can not convince me that glowing Stone for lack of better term is anything more. And I can't make you see my point of view."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Glowing stone? Divine embodiment of a realm entire, and it's a glowing stone."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Is fire merely something that burns, to? Certainly not one of the primal foundations of existence."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Too, rather."

(Ashtan): You say, "I do not see how the moon which is in direct polar opposite for best reflection which glows just as a mirror would do. Which travels the exact same pattern every night is anything but some inanimate object in the night sky."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "It doesn't travel the exact same pattern!"

(Ashtan): You say, "One incident by a underworld prince does not change every other night for past 500 years."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "It definitively demonstrates that the influence of Ourania affects the moon."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "And vice versa."
3740h, 3830m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:40:38:921)
(Ashtan): You say, "Once again the influence of ourania ffects the moon, or ourania is the moon?"

(Ashtan): You say, "You are changing what exactly the moon is."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "And, again, the two are not mutually exclusive."

(Ashtan): You say, "Influence: the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others:."

(Ashtan): You say, "Others not oneself."

(Ashtan): You say, "So it can't be both it is either the influence she has over the object or she is the moon."

(Ashtan): You say, "It can not be both."

(Ashtan): Yllre says, "Stop assuming Divine follow Mortal limitations."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Certainly, it can. The physical object is merely an aspect of Ourania's realm. It embodies Her presence within the realms. It cannot exist without Her and it is influenced by Her will."

(Ashtan): Rexak says, "I would of thought this should of been in tells like 20 secs ago."

(Ashtan): Imyrr says, "Would have, and should have, dear Rexak! And the city could do with a good debate once in a while."

(Ashtan): You say, "Ok Imyrr, I'm shutting up now. They've had enough."

(Ashtan): Archondrion says, "Actually, I'd like to hear more, but I don't matter so much."

(Ashtan): Rexak says, "This is true imyrr, but still if everyone has to follow rules, it should be the same for everyone."

You sent the following message to Imyrr:
You wouldn't happen to be logging right now, most fun I've had in a while I was going to post the debate up in quotes if you don't mind.

(Ashtan): Katalyst says, "Quit interrupting please!"

(Ashtan): You say, "I'm done."
3740h, 3830m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:45:43:265)
(Ashtan): You say, "City can go back to normal."

(Ashtan): Zilphir says, "Theres a normal?"

3740h, 3830m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:46:34:218)
You just received message #65 from Imyrr.
3740h, 3830m, 17600e, 16400w cexkd- (0:46:46:31)
Message #65 Sent by Imyrr
5/04/5:46 I haven't been, I'm afraid. But I don't mind.



Most fun I've had in achaea in a long time and I didn't even have to pick up my scimis. Thanks Imyrr. That debate made my weekend.

It was fun. Certainly a welcome change, too!

The moon-as-reflective-rock theory is not in and of itself "insane", but the evidence Horuce used to defend it doesn't really exist in the game. It bugs me when people assume that Achaea operates under the same natural laws as the OOC world. I guess it can be frustrating either way.

But I do applaud all of Ashtan in this case for not slipping into any -

(Astan): Dorkus says, "Lol! U idiot u think the moon is like the real world mooon? Duh/ This is only a game!!!!1!"

etc. etc.

Bravo Imyrr on reminding those scientific heathens this world is not based on otherworldly science.

Nicely done Imyrr, I applaud you.

Ah yes. two people debating text reflections.

Now if I had to make a assumption based on this post. I would say Horuce: down and out guy who doesn't believe in really any of the gods (haha..gods that's still funny)

Imyr: Blind faithful follower who's gods can't possibly be anything wrong with them.

Conclusion: both wrong.

Or maybe they just have different views on thing, and we're simply debating them, as opposing sides usually do with one another. It's called conflict, and it is one of the main staples that make Achaea so fun.

Neither are necessarily wrong (even though I believe Imyrr does have a fair few good points over Horuce)

You are.

I've always thought this sort of debate was fun. For instance, Quoren until now has wondered about the shape of the world. He's currently wondering why when you get far enough south (see: Meropis) you get plains which are very similar, ecologically and climatologically speaking, to the Dardanic Grasslands, or perhaps Sangre Plains. Round? Or flat? Maybe torus-shaped?

Does it really matter? No, but it's a fun thing to think about, since we really have no evidence either way which would be considered scientifically valid.

You can see the same constellations from Meropis as from Sapience. This could be proof of a flat world... or it could be an oversight.

The shape of the world was quite a debate for a while, really. This is the Logos answer:

It's quite easy.

If we take the wilderness as a reliable map of the Achaean world, that world is flat, since it is entirely consisted of squares.
Good thing is, we don't have to worry about map projections.

I wanted to stab my eyes out reading horuce's contributions. Good god that was awful. Imyrr should be given a medal for taking the time to put up with that utter nonsense.

Judging by the constellations, the direction of both tides and winds on the ocean (Yes I've honestly tracked them to some level of accuracy) along with the climate found around the lands. I have come to the assumption the world is indeed round.. it is round and hollow, we live on the inside. The stars are on the inside, And the sun is below us. How can this be failed logic?

I couldn't finish the log, Horuce's argument was so retarded. Every time he said something dumb it made me want to slap him.

Thanks cooper..yea I've decided to just give up roleplaying at all on my characters. Its nice to know my attempts at such are "so retarded" No, I don't be back to thread so I won't be reading any replies but If you talk to me in game, don't expect someone "sane" Its just easier to type normal and forget the roleplay. After all I don't want to appear so retarded now would I..

...taking ooc concepts and things ic and defending them with 0 ic proof is not roleplay.

There have been a lot of arguments like this over the years on the Eleusis city channel - debates on how fires actually replenish plantlife (with accompanying counterarguments about how plants actually grow through the life that the forest spirits give to them...).

I agree with Cooper though - ooc concepts shouldn't be brought up in game, especially when their are clear divine influences over particular things (moon, nature, sun, etc.).

It's hard to tell exactly when ooc things are ok and when they aren't. Like, in the real world, forests exist. Forest fires exist. They're bad, but they also are a natural part of forest ecology. In Achaea, forests exist and many parts of them are pulled right from real ooc forests, but per Divine statements many times, FIRES ARE BAD PERIOD.

Another example is tides. In the real world, they're caused by the moon's gravitational pull on the ocean. In-game, both Neraeos and Ourania use this ooc explanation and have said that Ourania influences the tides even thought the ocean is solely Neraeos' realm, although it's definitely not seen as natural law, it's the will of those two Gods themselves.

So I can see how you would have thought the Achaean moon must reflect the sun's light, Horuce, but at the same time you were clearly, unequivocally, completely wrong in your arguments. The Achaean moon is like the earth moon, it rises and sets, it has phases, that's all pulled right from the real ooc moon. It makes sense that all the other stuff about the Achaean moon would match too, including that it's light is a reflection from the sun, but it doesn't.

A good rule of thumb when you're talking about things that would be physical laws irl, in Achaea they will almost all be caused by the will of some Divine or another. If Maya wanted to reverse gravity today, she could. If Ourania felt like making the moon turn purple with orange spots, she could. Don't try to use ooc science for pretty much anything unless you always filter it through the idea that the Gods drive everything.

Life would have been better if Kastalia were the Goddess of Tides, then. Would have made more sense.

Also, congrats to Imyrr for really pulling through that discussion. It's good to see that kind of thing.

Wish I could have been around then.

Awesome job, Iymrr.