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  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,834Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wonder how many people have levels of automation but think it's still manual, and how many people have an auto system but claim to be full manual. To be honest, I'm so far behind it all that it doesn't do anything to me, just interesting at what point do we just reach for the full auto and pray'n'spray.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,470Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 12
    Thats precisely what I did say. lrn2read

    edit: rereading, what I meant is people taking credit for their AI's kills. Moving on..
    Chubbs
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,788Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Keorin You'll find very few good fighters who defend artefacts, though, so this is just whataboutism.
  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 477Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I’m the worst Achaean player ever. I can’t code worth a crap (can’t even throw credits at people to code for me cause no one ever agrees to code), and I don’t understand combat enough to manual. Everything is too fast and complicated - I’ve accepted my general combat suckage long ago. There’s just some things people are good at and some they never will do more than get their feet wet. 

    As as an example, I switched to Shikudo monk about a month ago. I still haven’t coded any combos. The only thing I use it for is to KILL @TARGET
    Torrent
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 526Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 12
    Kiet said:
    @Keorin You'll find very few good fighters who defend artefacts, though, so this is just whataboutism.

    I've always found a fair number of people defend artifacts, really, and argue that they don't make -that- much of a difference. Certainly, plenty of people get upset at the suggestion that they should ever be made less impactful.

    If you're calling my post whataboutism, though, I don't think you read it very well. My argument isn't that offensive automation doesn't have its own problems (I specifically said that it does, several times), or that it doesn't contribute to the issues that people are talking about (it clearly does). I'm arguing that the problems people are bringing up with combat as a whole have not been solely, or even primarily, caused by this particular development in automation.

    Basically, I think if we compared modern achaean combat to a hypothetical 100% skill based environment (raw telnet connections, no artifacts, equal skill investment, equal stats/level), I think that automating one's choice of afflictions is only a very small part of the factors reducing the impact of skill on combat, one that gets a disproportionate amount of the blame for the overall problem due to its relative newness instead of its relative impact.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,788Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 12
    Automation has made random nobodies more dangerous than buying arties has, generally, especially after most stat scaling was nerfed. If you give bob clueless a full auto system as certain classes he's more of an issue than if he just buys every level 3 at once right now.

    Certainly, if artefacts affected group combat more than automation, you'd see the heavily artied but not so automated cities dominating much more.

    Either way though they're both bad but one of them is the business model and the other is something not even the admins like.
    Caelan
  • TaryiusTaryius Posts: 402Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I used to have a lot more of a fight to pick with automation in the past, but honestly, its become the norm and what I expect going against any affliction class and I play according to that. 

    In fact, if I know someone manuals their whole offence, many defensive tools become incredibly more effective and it becomes a lot easier to survive (looking at you shield tattoo).

    I've dabbled in using AK, automating my affliction selection as a Shaman. I didn't like it, and when I was firsting starting combat it turned me away from ever using Shaman to lock and playing the vodun cheese game instead. I still have it on my profile today for when I use Shaman, but I rarely ever use it, opting instead for my aliases and using Shaman solely for group combat.

    There are definitely some skills in this game that really feed into the automation mindset, and as discussed earlier in this thread, Stormhammer is definitely one of those. Even with an alias to help you out, typing 3 different targets to maximize the skills dps is going to be tough for most to do. Further more, keeping track of people in room versus out of room, as the skill won't fire if all you sent it with 3 people and all 3 aren't present. This is becoming a bit of a side rant that I'd love to see Stormhammer tweaked or made easier to work with. Anway. 

    A successful manual combatant, be it prep or not, will always seem more skilled to me than someone who spends their time writing and tuning their system. And I'm very glad the direction the admin are taking in making new classes or tweaks that benefit the manual combat, even if people still automate them. 

    Don't even get me started on group automation, which I do not believe is healthy for the game.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,788Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Stormhammer is more of a cumbersome UI system than anything else, tbf.
    Taryius
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 526Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 12
    Kiet said:
    Automation has made random nobodies more dangerous than buying arties has, generally, especially after most stat scaling was nerfed. If you give bob clueless a full auto system as certain classes he's more of an issue than if he just buys every level 3 at once right now.
    I don't find this to be true, myself. I'd much rather fight a fully automated shaman/apostate/depthswalker who had no artifacts, then fight a knight/monk with rudimentary class knowledge and no automation but with level three weapons. It's always possible to learn how to deal with that kind of affliction output, but there comes a point with artifact differences where you're just getting priced out of the fight. Without sufficient health and physical resistances, for instance, an artifacted monk can kill you with next to no setup, and with essentially no recourse. Even in lesser cases, I find myself struggling far more against the raw damage output of level three scimitars/soulpiercer bard then I do against full automated offense.

    Added to that, some classes simply need certain skills/artifacts. You won't get far without any capacity to fly, or without leap/mountjump in some form, let alone without the abilities that survival gives, since those are all things that combat is balanced around having.

    Now, I'd agree that the situation is significantly different in group fights, where automation becomes far more of a force multiplier then artifacts could be. Though even there, earrings/wings/lyre/urn and other artifacts make a -massive- difference.
    KyoshiroMathilda
  • AjocAjoc Posts: 44Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I don't possess the desire or skill to automate beyond shield breaks assuming I even have that enabled, which I usually don't. Heck, the only thing I highlight are shields, a few cures, and most afflictions that reveal when cured. Everything else I pick up by skimming or pattern recognition after I've seen it enough times.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Posts: 3,213Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
               

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • AntidasAntidas Posts: 1,453Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    I'd like to see you play an aff class without automating, Aegoth. You should try! 
    Just fyi, I'm a fully manual serpent when it comes to dueling, and I'm pretty sure I've killed you 1v1 before! Manualing an aff class can definitely be done - don't let anyone say it can't. It is definitely harder than a momentum based class, however.

    And before anyone tries to say I'm lying about being manual - I have a fully automated system, but it sucks horribly because someone gave it to me and then quit the game years ago (so its no longer updated) and I only ever use it for huge group fights when I lose track of what affs someone has in my head. I'm not a good coder, so its not within my capabilities to fix it, and I don't care enough to pay someone else to try to fix it. I've found that for 1v1 or small group situations, I can manual far more effectively than my automation can.

    That being said, to play a little bit of devils advocate here: I started getting into combat with the automated system before I got good at manually locking, and it actually helped me a fair bit by showing me what sort of things I should be doing when I do try to manual.

    TruaxAilea
  • EllodinEllodin HawaiiPosts: 851Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 13
    As I implied at the beginning of my earlier post, my point is not that the game should somehow force devolution. As Makarios said, that is not enforceable, nor is it necessarily enjoyable to build around. Less externally referential ramble ahead, and something different that those who agreed with my first post might not agree with.

    Minifie's line, "I wonder how many people have levels of automation but think it's still manual, and how many people have an auto system but claim to be full manual," feels apt here. Part of my point was that the current idea of "rudimentary class knowledge," as Keorin referred to, includes essentially perfect curing, including smart usage of tree.

    For anecdotal examples of this, I call upon my own experience as a non-artefacted fighter.

    There have been many notable fully artefacted people who, while they were certainly dangerous against middling fighters, were not as effective against the top class in the game. If it makes the point more relatable to those who actually experienced fighting against them, Cain, Xenomorph, Lideron, and Veldrin might be a few whose names are still recognizable. The amount of pressure their artefacts gave them certainly increased the difficulty of fighting against them relative to how they would be without artefacts, but they were really quite beatable, even at level 70 sub-3200 health tritrans+survival (focus is good for the aconite part of aco/curare: fc, eb).

    People who had both top class artefacts and top class skill were of course more dangerous than people who had one without the other. Characters like Rennyn and Dumah come to mind here, though I may be biased when it comes to positive evaluation of these people because of other factors. Their artefacts gave them increased pressure and quicker set-up time, yes, but they also knew how to finish a fight without those advantages. The gear augmented their pressure and made them more challenging to fight than other skilled players with fewer artefacts, but there were few people who had that level of ability to begin with, so the artefacts did not seem to matter as much (at my skill level) as they do now. That's where the difference was made.

    There were other advantages back then, as class choice had far more of an impact on effective ability to fight in one on one. Though there may be fewer people working on and developing combat ability now than ever before, I think that among those who fight, a wider range of classes participate in combat; that is thanks to massive changes over the years to give every class a feasible way to kill. Besides artefacted maul incinerators like Grandue or Batang, how many Druids even tried to fight past the "I can cure paralysis" level before?

    There has been a parallel paradigm shift when it comes to the apparent design philosophy behind Achaean combat. Fights are not necessarily "faster" because balances themselves have become quicker, and fights don't necessarily end more quickly because of decision-making assistance. Classes, speaking as a whole, have had their offensive threats boosted because of an aversion to the incredibly drawn-out fights that would occur between two fighters who were able to play the correct defense or had an insufficient offense.

    Even "prep" classes had a correct defense to play against them, one that would generally result in nullifying the finish; back then, it was based on little things like finding an appropriate time to begin a finishing sequence or playing a fake strategy for the first few finish attempts to bait an incorrect reaction out of someone. Human tricks for human minds, you see, so lend me this moment to wax nostalgic while I howl at the moon.

    And at the top, there certainly were fights that would not end because of the pure defensive ability displayed between two fighters. I had excruciatingly long fights with Tynil that ended on random events like a falcon knocking someone off balance eight times in a row after two-and-a-half hours of fighting, or myriad games of rampage or FFA that came to a close based on a game of rock-paper-scissors because people did not want to spend the requisite time or effort on fights that did not matter. For my taste, this was fine, and it engendered a certain respect; shades of Hector and Ajax exchanging sword and girdle after a day's duel, you see.

    So, rather than looking at only one factor like automation, the offensive-leaning design philosophy behind Achaean combat has also brought about more of these quick fights with easily-pressed advantages, where defense or recovery can seem more reliant on the RNG of escaping a room hinder rather than some timely action. Pure speed reigns over clever timing now, so unlike a real fight between skilled boxers. Still, I'm not sure if a more defensive design philosophy is the best solution to this either, if only because botting will result in infinitely long ends to arena events.

    On a completely different note, Reyson made a point regarding OOC condition affecting IC effectiveness. In the Iliad, there are points where certain warriors are favored by some God or other on the field, even outside of Paris' shot on Achilles. Sometimes, I've wondered if that was just an old way of saying "torn ligaments did not bother him as much today." I've seen it posited that Mickey Mantle played most of his career on a torn ACL and MCL, an all-time great in spite of serious injuries for which there was no surgical procedure. We may all have different levels of "athleticism" when it comes to Achaea, but those who have the inborn and developed ability to rise to the top would do so regardless...in my ideal world.
    Post edited by Rhivona on
    And as he slept he dreamed a dream, and this was his dream.
    Rom
  • ZheoZheo Posts: 40Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I wish Ellodin would auto because every time he types it sounds like he's mad at his keyboard
    KriexTrey
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 2,980Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So many slain keyboards  :'(

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Kriex
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 697Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    wait people use voice?
  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 408Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    My definitions:

    Any person who tracks current afflictions in their head is a manual fighter.

    An automatic fighter, in the primary attack of the class, uses the same input to produce a different result.

    A manual fighter constructs the attack at time of input. Does that mean construction of a UI that tracks afflictions but allows you to change the selection priority on the fly should be considered a manual fighter? See here.

    An automatic fighter can be further categorized.

    A constructor is a player who designs, in the main, a methodology for interacting with their character's tools and leverages this to make quicker preplanned decisions at time of use.

    A designer is a player who carefully curates and updates their selections of tools, be it input or visual, despite allowing their tools to do most of the heavy lifting at time of use.

    A modifier is a player who attempts to alter and appreciate the underlying tool that they are using in an effort to achieve better results.

    A user is a player who uses the same input to try and produce a different result each time.

    Carry on.
    Nexus: Accents, Autotriggers
    "As the child did... without the rope. Then fear will find you again."

    Kyoshiro
  • ZheoZheo Posts: 40Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    So since Achaea is a Multi USER Dungeon we should all be automating fully.
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,441Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As combat with Achaea has evolved, so has the mechanics with it. Combat has become so fast paced that I cant completely fault the players for turning to automation. Do I hate it? Yes, but I also see where they are coming from.

    The only solution I can think of is if combat mechanics were simplified considerably. You'd still see automation but it wouldn't be as impactful. Do we want such a drastic change though?
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,788Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Other than shaman/soulpiercer bard there's no classes that are really that hard to keep up with, though. People even automate serpent, which is a class that's really easy to keep up with in that sense.
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 489Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The advent of the curing system made it much easier to play Achaea without having to code anything more than a few keybinds/aliases and a couple highlights, defensively. If anything, jumping into achaean PvP is easier now than it's ever been, and not vice-versa. What Ellodin says is true- stuff that used to be high-end defensive knowledge or a 'trick' is now built into curing, and you don't even have to learn that stuff yourself (probably part of why it's still the same 10-20ish people doing all the teaching around here, after all these years) anymore, since the curing system does it for you. 

    I don't really buy the lamentation that combat is too fast to get into. Like any game with a steep learning curve, it's tough, and you will lose a lot, at first. If you stick with it and work on it, you'll get better. Classes like 2h knight, DW, monk, and probably Alchemist will always be solid entry options for people, and that's good. It took me literal years before I was winning duels at least semi-consistently. There's complexity for people who want more of a challenge in more advanced classes, and simplicity for people who just wanna hit things. 

    For the record, to keep the definition simple, I would say automation is the point where, if I were to grab your mudlet profile and play with it, I could win just by pressing your attack button, since it doesn't matter who's behind the screen. Like a few of us have said before, that's a terribly depressing thought. And before anyone says this isn't the case at all, I think most of us in the pvp scene for any significant amount of time have seen scripts being passed around, from targeting/sniping scripts early on to full serpent offences being handed out like candy. I do think it's amusing that some people around here pretend they coded all of their stuff, though, when they definitely at least initially borrowed someone else's. Don't be that way. It's fine, we all take shortcuts if we can.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,408Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Other than shaman/soulpiercer bard there's no classes that are really that hard to keep up with, though. People even automate serpent, which is a class that's really easy to keep up with in that sense.
    Would you mind showing how easy it is to manual classes vs. top tier opponents? You can tell everyone that it isn't hard to manual almost all classes every day, but that doesn't make it true.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,672Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I played Serpent manual just fine.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    KietAntidas
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,788Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 13
    Cooper said:
    Kiet said:
    Other than shaman/soulpiercer bard there's no classes that are really that hard to keep up with, though. People even automate serpent, which is a class that's really easy to keep up with in that sense.
    Would you mind showing how easy it is to manual classes vs. top tier opponents? You can tell everyone that it isn't hard to manual almost all classes every day, but that doesn't make it true.
    Atalkez, Farrah, Iakimen, Rom have all shown that manualing vs top tier opponents is pretty doable. I'm fairly sure Makarios did too on his player character, lol. I don't 1v1 seriously anymore and I can still manual at a level where I can keep up with the vast majority of the game, so how hard can you seriously claim it to be, even if you ignore the top tier who are doing it? Sure, manually affing at the top tier is difficult, no shit. Being good at any game should be difficult. Learning how to be competent at it, though? Not nearly as impossible as people claim--they just want an excuse to automate. What holds people back is not some mechanical inability to keep up with literally one alias every two seconds (most aff classes), but sheer laziness (me!)/lack of practice/improper mindset.

    A lot of people don't even 1v1 very actively, either, and automate their offense for groups, which is ridiculous.

    No idea why you're getting snarky, either, lol.
  • GarnerGarner Posts: 15Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    It varies from person to person. Back in the days before vadi's first system, which I think I picked up around the Vertani invasion, I was hopeless in combat. It was ALL I could do just to keep up curing, nevermind offense. Yet it goes without saying there were a lot of people who were great at it.

    These days, I still suck at combat, and no amount of automation is going to make it easier. I barely get by (though this time around I'm going to force myself to get better), and I can tell you right now I need some sort of aff tracker or limb counter to make sense of what my opponent is doing. If I couldn't keep track of my own affs before, I can't keep track of my opponents now.

    All this is by way of saying, both the people who say "you can't manual aff classes" and those that are saying "you can manual aff classes" are correct - for themselves. There are differing levels of skill, and a little automation can help even out the playing field for those who are lacking. The skill ceiling is different for each person, so how much automation helps will be different as well.


    Now, for ACTUAL stuff that happened to me today, I bought another tradeskill slot and picked up tailoring. Now I can design my own clothes! Fun times.
    Mathilda
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,408Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm not saying you can't manual, I just find it entertaining that the most vocal "you can manual anything" people can't actually fight at a high level. 

  • KietKiet Posts: 2,788Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    I'm not saying you can't manual, I just find it entertaining that the most vocal "you can manual anything" people can't actually fight at a high level. 
    Like... Iakimen and Ellodin earlier on the page, you mean? Both of them are way better than either of us, so your point is kinda silly.
  • PyoriPyori Posts: 498Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Cooper said:
    I'm not saying you can't manual, I just find it entertaining that the most vocal "you can manual anything" people can't actually fight at a high level. 
    I mean there's plenty on the other side of it as well, who say you can't manual at a high level... And aren't particularly good themselves, to be making such a claim.

    Kiet
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