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  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Adrik said:
    Edit 1:  I don't really need to post a ton of this because honestly it can just be better said in a PM instead of here. Sorry.

    I disagree that "Everyone should just classlead what they want even if they don't know what they're talking about".. because it ends up with  a decent chunk of the unapproved pile and stuff. I sure-as-hell ain't going to argue for nerfs/buffs to things when I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.
    You may have a solution to a problem that no one else has thought of. If you see something you don't like classlead it. It may give Mak and his team more things to read but it could lead to another problem being solved.
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,844Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 16
    The momentum requirements for DWB are pretty trivial too tbh. I wouldn't mind the kill being unstoppable if it required enough momentum that a pure momentum class could fight against it, but it doesn't. If you are pointing to momentum denial as the counter, you're saying momentum classes (especially slower ones) basically have to just stop fighting for 3 minutes until their limbs reset, which is boring and a major issue to me.

    Momentum decay is also insanely slow compared to momentum gain, so you can go defensive and not lose all your momentum like an actual momentum class does. I'm sure a prep class could hit and run slow prep the DWB but some classes really have no option.
  • TelinusTelinus Posts: 166Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The window between having the artefacts and not having artefacts is probably smaller with the implementation of more aff-based kills, however I'd also say that even though the gap between them is smaller, for certain classes having a level 1/2/3 artefact can open completely different, and vastly more efficient,strategies that just aren't available to those without the artefacts.

    Factor in not having to go as defensive as others if you have defensive artefacts against damage, and the hinder race - being able to afflict .3s quicker, or stick afflictions 2 hits quicker than your opponent, it can combine to a rather large difference given the small window available.

  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,844Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Telinus said:
    The window between having the artefacts and not having artefacts is probably smaller with the implementation of more aff-based kills, however I'd also say that even though the gap between them is smaller, for certain classes having a level 1/2/3 artefact can open completely different, and vastly more efficient,strategies that just aren't available to those without the artefacts.

    Factor in not having to go as defensive as others if you have defensive artefacts against damage, and the hinder race - being able to afflict .3s quicker, or stick afflictions 2 hits quicker than your opponent, it can combine to a rather large difference given the small window available.


    It's a difference. It's just not comparable to what the difference used to be. I look at all the changes over the years and see huge improvements for unartied people. Some of it does depend on whether you're willing to take advantage of what's available though. For example, as a heavily artied person I can play any class I want and not care about min-maxing. I can be int spec monk for Kai chokes in group even while going for aff-based 1v1 kills and never have to worry about my max hp being too low.

    If I was unartied though, I could go tash'la and take robust trait and con spec just for the extra con so my max hp would be roughly what I fight with currently with my arties. I could bother getting runes more often, and use azelhurium if I wanted, too. My sips and regen would still be lower but my max hp would be about the same and my offense would be the exact same (I play shikudo, kill with dispatch and locks, and have unartied staff). It's hard for me to imagine arties making a huge difference in that situation. I don't even have SoA paragon so a lot of the time I don't have that bonus either.

    That's just one class/race example though and if you're adamant about playing a class or race that sucks unartied, you'll have bigger problems. I don't think there used to even be as good of options as there are now though.
    Leviticus
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    Leviticus said:
    I am not saying that because someone paid money they deserve to kill everyone or "roll through anyone he fights" (He doesn't). I am saying that because someone paid money they should have an advantage over someone who doesn't have artefacts or there isn't an artefact that counters it. Should he be able to do high damage with DwB, yes. He paid for it. Is what I am saying. It's not the artefact's fault the class design is flawed and allows flails to do a lot of damage to people. 

    That is what we have lost sight of throughout the years. We have constantly made changes to classes due to artefacts combined with the class set. We, as a community, don't think about the real money people spend on this game is all I am saying. We, as a community, tend to nerf things into the ground and increase the difficultly of playing a class. This impacts new players more than players who can use multiclass to change whenever they want. Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish? Bring new players and new blood into this community? The more we change classes due to artefacts the harder we are making it for new players. 
    Except he pretty much does. He may lose to the one or two matchups that DwB struggles against regardless of it's offense, but pretty much everything else just gets destroyed. There's 0 reason for me to fight him in anything like BM/Monk/Bard that has paltry resists and poor armour - and my defensive investment is probably higher than his offensive investment, since I have Mantle on top of the normal defensive stuff. DwB forged is just as crazy, though, and that's something a lot of people don't realize. The damage uptick from the arties is a lot more minimal than you would think - it's the speed that really makes the most difference. You can still Pulp with a TON of time to fight through room hinder or whatever, and as Infernal you can still fork Vivi/Pulp for 100% secured kill. You keep saying there are counters - there aren't. You either die to Pulp or you die to Vivi - there is no option.

    I think you've got it backwards. The situation that hurts new comers is walking into a fight and being totally obliterated, because you didn't spend money like someone else did. That's not a good place to be for the game. No one has lost sight of the fact that people have spent money on the game. The problem, whether you want to note it or not, is that artefacts have become so widespread - you have to balance around them. It doesn't do us any good to balance a class perfectly, then let someone spend money and now the class does things it wasn't actually intended to do. This is why Torc was deleted, and why damage has been worked and re-worked over the years. It's a process of fine tuning mechanics so that you have an advantage, while it not being so enormous that you can't overcome it with skill. At the end of the day, I 100% believe that the more skillful player should win - not the person who does more damage because they had a bigger credit card or whatever it was that allowed them to buy a ton of artefacts.
    You are correct, it isn't about the damage of L3 Stars/Flails it is the speed increase. You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum).

    I was that new player 12-13 years ago going against Manu, Tanris, Kupo, Caelan, Rangor, etc, etc. You know what they said? Suck it up buttercup. The game has gone on for 12-13 years. It is an interesting problem to solve and I hope Achaea solves it. 

    I agree the more skillful player should win but that will never be the case because each class has it's strengths and weaknesses.
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Farrah said:
    The momentum requirements for DWB are pretty trivial too tbh. I wouldn't mind the kill being unstoppable if it required enough momentum that a pure momentum class could fight against it, but it doesn't. If you are pointing to momentum denial as the counter, you're saying momentum classes (especially slower ones) basically have to just stop fighting for 3 minutes until their limbs reset, which is boring and a major issue to me.

    Momentum decay is also insanely slow compared to momentum gain, so you can go defensive and not lose all your momentum like an actual momentum class does. I'm sure a prep class could hit and run slow prep the DWB but some classes really have no option.
    No I am pointing to the momentum required to pull off a Pulp or Vivisect. It is different. I have a different momentum requirement and different prep strategy for Pulp then Vivisect. And the window to execute is smaller than what people think. Slow prep works to a point but I still NEED a specific amount of momentum to pull off either strategy... which requires hitting you continuously.
  • PyoriPyori Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Also I'm pretty sure Farrah's comment about was momentum was because you can just hit untargeted doublewhirls to gain momentum, without sacrificing any of your prep. It is trivial once you're prepped. The window is fully in the infernal's hands at that point, it's just a matter of when they wanna pull the trigger.

    Farrah
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Also I'm pretty sure Farrah's comment about was momentum was because you can just hit untargeted doublewhirls to gain momentum, without sacrificing any of your prep. It is trivial once you're prepped. The window is fully in the infernal's hands at that point, it's just a matter of when they wanna pull the trigger.
    We all know that DwB is going to get nerfed and after this no one will play DwB because the one thing it has going for it is damage. It has nothing else. As it is people don't even play DwB except Proficy and Doch. Can't wait to see what they do. BM and Tekura Monk all over again. 
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,844Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 16
    Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Actually, it's not true. Level 3 stars are not required for the unstoppable vivi/pulp fork and vivi and pulp are not different and separate setups if you play right. It's a fork. If I cure one way, you pulp. If I cure the other way, you vivi.

    Some Infernals ignore the fact that it's a fork and don't use all the class's potential. 

    You need a trivial amount of momentum to pull off the fork because full momentum is a trivial amount of momentum with the lvl 3s in particular. You get there in 8-9 seconds (10-11 unartied?). Most momentum classes require more than 8-9 or even 10-11 seconds to possibly kill you, so once they are prepped, their only option is to stop fighting for 3 minutes until limbs reset, or let you kill them.

    Edit: Tekura monk is extremely viable currently! Has Jhui really been forgotten already? BM wasn't really nerfed as far as I can remember. It's always struggled with a certain defense/artie combo.
  • LeviticusLeviticus Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Farrah said:
    Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Actually, it's not true. Level 3 stars are not required for the unstoppable vivi/pulp fork and vivi and pulp are not different and separate setups if you play right. It's a fork. If I cure one way, you pulp. If I cure the other way, you vivi.

    Some Infernals ignore the fact that it's a fork and don't use all the class's potential. 

    You need a trivial amount of momentum to pull off the fork because full momentum is a trivial amount of momentum with the lvl 3s in particular. You get there in 8-9 seconds (10-11 unartied?). Most momentum classes require more than 8-9 or even 10-11 seconds to possibly kill you, so once they are prepped, their only option is to stop fighting for 3 minutes until limbs reset, or let you kill them.

    Edit: Tekura monk is extremely viable currently! Has Jhui really been forgotten already? BM wasn't really nerfed as far as I can remember. It's always struggled with a certain defense/artie combo.

    You named the best or one of the best combatants in the game. Tekura monk is still good but it used to be a beast with all the artefacts. I haven't played nor seen it played (besides Atalkez) after the clumsiness roll-back. BM was too strong and then brought back into "balance" with infuse changes. Two problems with BM is with accuracy which is being fixed and the set up and execution of brokenstar.

    DwB Infernal will be brought in line, I am sure. We will see what happens. I am interested in what the Achaea team will come up with that doesn't completely neuter it across the three classes (Infernal, Runie and Paladin)
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 456Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    As Shikudo, I can split about 50/50 vs Proficy and Doch I can win a majority so I'm assuming @Atalkez is referring to Tekura struggling vs it rather than all monks?
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,633Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 16
    Realistically, the kill setups will be fine tuned to not be so easy to secure. Infernal is the one DwB that has a secondary salve fork that requires no other affs (Damnation cannot be done by DwB because it requires asthma and hellsight on top of the head break, for instance), which is why it is the main one people discuss when they bring up DwB behind unstoppable.

    Pulp by itself is extremely strong as a finisher, because the window is very large. With full weapons, you have time to leap around a wall, raze rebounding, and still secure a Pulp. That's not realistic in comparison to other prep classes where tumbling away is largely the counter. When you add in the ability to fork into Vivi, it's even worse on having a secured kill, since a head break first with numbed arms effectively is a death sentence. Apply to head, vivi. Apply to arms or legs to try to stop vivi, go into pulp execution. It's the only class that has this interaction in it's kit, when looking at this particular spec.

    Personally, I'd like to move away from buying more speed across the board. Increase damage, increase accuracy, but keep the speed the same as a forged person. This would make balancing timing a lot easier imo. If you notice, most of the classes lately are designed like this. You can increase how potent the class is, but not how fast it is. That's the better setup to me.

    Edit: @Puxi absolutely. Shikudo has paralysis, clumsiness and lethargy plus limb breaks. There's no real reason Shikudo should lose to DwB in most cases. I could probably do it, it would be entirely a prep race. The main difference is that he could survive the damage on his side, while I couldn't, once proned. Fullplate vs leather. That's assuming he just did Pulp and I actually had a chance to cure around the setup and kaiheal etc. If he forked the Vivi, which breaks arms, it's entirely a prep race since I'd die to the damage without kaihael.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Puxi
  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,290Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Puxi said:
    As Shikudo, I can split about 50/50 vs Proficy and Doch I can win a majority so I'm assuming @Atalkez is referring to Tekura struggling vs it rather than all monks?
    Sticky-monk has much better hinder than punchy-monk, I think... 
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,844Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eh. I don't think a stickmonk would be great against optimal DWB Infernal. There's the fact that not everyone plays optimally, though.

    I'm sure Tek monk can beat DWB. It's just a prep race. I'd rather be Tek monk than a momentum class against it, which is what really suffers imo (if they play optimally). You get slow prepped and then unstoppably killed. Something has to give there. Give up defense and risk dying or lose the unstoppable kill so both sides can live on.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Posts: 3,197Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 16
    Atalkez said:

    Shikudo has paralysis, clumsiness and lethargy plus limb breaks. 
    Plus kaido defense + telepathy hinder/offense + (stuns + blackout + ignores rebounding/excellent touch shield handling). Not that it matters against vivi-fork but it's very tempting to play as  :s

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  • MindshellMindshell Posts: 234Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The artied pulp window is too big, this conflates the varying threats available to dwb. I don't think anyone wants to make the spec useless but let me be clear, I can pulp with only flails, morningstars are significantly faster and provide an unnecessary margin for success. Throw vivisect into the mix and it's just capitalising on the reliability of pulp given the available toolset.

    As for the damage, it's just damage, it gives flails a use, it's a longer execution sequence, has more room for counterplay, and is possible to outright tank in the right classes. I don't have a strong opinion on its average for success as minor tweaks aren't a big deal, but I am glad it's not designed to execute like a pulp replica.
  • VoliVoli Posts: 79Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 16
    All I am reading, as a scrub, is to just avoid Knights altogether because if I don't die to their prep, their dmg will just kill me. Gotcha. My slashy sword is weak.

    Just joking. I just need to parry better.


    Mathilda
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I straight up don't fight artied dwb unless maybe I'm in dragon. It's a valid concern that without their damage dwb is kind of a garbage class, I guess, but that's why I hate damage classes. They'll probably need something new to be able to beat people who can tank nerfed damage, because otherwise it'll always be an issue of insta win vs 90% of the game and stuck vs that 10% that can tank it (though I'm not sure how to address dwb infernal).
  • TelendriethTelendrieth Posts: 208Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Voli said:
    All I am reading, as a scrub, is to just avoid Knights altogether because if I don't die to their prep, their dmg will just kill me. Gotcha. My slashy sword is weak.

    Just joking. I just need to parry better.
    Just engage and cleave.. and make sure I give you miasma first so you aren't useless.  <3
    Voli
  • ProficyProficy Posts: 200Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I guess i am garbage cause i still see no 100% fork for dwb infernal.
    To even prep for both you have to have all 5 limbs fully preped (guaranteed kill for any and every prep class last i checked), then to execute you need a minimum of 7 out of 8 momentum points (very difficult to do against aff and other momentum classes) then you have to execute around clumsiness so you actually hit. How the dwb player initiates the chain odviously tells which he is going for.. there is no fork just preparation for both.
    And 99% of people dont not have flexible dynamics to there system to handle change so what may seem like a "fork" is me just basing my kill path on how i know your going to cure.

    I too am eagerly awaiting these upcoming changes... this class is so controversial now. I hope it gets some more functionality so i can use it more than just 1 on 1 scenarios.
  • VoliVoli Posts: 79Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 16
    I'd like BM to have an option to insta-kill people based off limbs broken. Brokenstar is like pulp with extra steps, and more counters.

    It can also have custom kill lines and unique kill paths based off the stance you want to initiate it from, or something.

    Doya lets you use the easiest kill path, because it's a useless stance.. so you'll never be able to reach it except to troll people.


  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,844Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

    Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.
    ExelethrilRekhyr
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 16
    While it's not true on the highest ends of health, it's also worth noting that DWB is -still- capable of perma-manglelocks off of a single leg break. If anyone cares about players newer to the game/combat, that's probably the dumbest part of the class right now. That threshold isn't small, either. With l3 flails, you can perma-mangle up to pretty high levels of health, if the target isn't artied.

    Their flail damage path isn't quite as bad, but is still pretty rediculous if you don't have a full defensive artie set to survive it. It can fully prep in some five combos at the slowest, and takes something like 3 momentum to start, for a damage setup that's nearly unavoidable. As a moderately-artifacted monk against forged flails, I usually need to maelstrom and build kai just to have enough heals to survive the setup, I still regularly don't, and that's -if- they don't slip in arm breaks.

    At the highest levels, it's definitely pulp that's pretty absurd, but DWB is easily the worst offender at turning artifact disparities or lower-leveled player's health levels into mechanically unwinnable fights, because of stuff like this.
    RekhyrExelethril
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 456Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Keorin, have you tried leaning on Rain for Clumsiness/Lethary to slow down the DwB's momentum. Maelstrom just seems like you aren't really achieving anything offensively. The key for me is to force them to have to play defensively for a bit while you either build Kelps or have enough Kai to play prone defense, if needed.
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I usually try that first, yeah, and only mess with maelstrom if it's clear I'm dying to not building kai quick enough. Trouble is, they -will- build their prep up, and kai gain is based on how much they're actually hitting me. Weariness and lethargy slow the pre-damage, but they don't mean I'll be going into the kill chain with any more kai, and that's the only real thing that determines if I live or die.

    Doesn't help that dwb kai gain is weird, and isn't increased by kai boost as much as other attacks. When it only takes them a few doublewhrils of prep to get you, you're just not always gunna have the kai heals you need to live through 4 flail hits, two of which get the prone+broken limb bonus, and 2 assault torsos to top it off.
  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 990Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Why not just make doublewhirl as horrid to-hit as Maul or Bite?  Problem solved.   They *might* hit 60% of the time.

  • PyoriPyori Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Caelan said:
    Why not just make doublewhirl as horrid to-hit as Maul or Bite?  Problem solved.   They *might* hit 60% of the time.
    Using maul in 2018, omegalul.

    Caelan
  • TelinusTelinus Posts: 166Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I feel a new classlead idea building...
  • MindshellMindshell Posts: 234Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Farrah said:
    It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

    Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.
    Amusingly, even without vivi threat this is not a counter to pulp.
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