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Raiding Mechanics

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  • AlrenaAlrena Posts: 633Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Makarios said:
    My inclination here is less that retardation needs sweeping changes and more that we just made it a bit too safe to use with the hard LoS into retardation adjustments.
    While that may be true, reversing the LoS changes would give you Team Bonko situations again with delph snipes from adjacent, as well as still making it all the worse for whichever team did not drop ret (or wasn't ready for it either way).

    I don't recall in the past that LoS was very useful in dropping retardation by killing the magi, rather it was usually used BY the magi and pals to pick out those who could dampen it, or other high priority targets. Won't solve any of the aforementioned issues, methinks, just put us a step back again.
    image
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,011Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Retardation ain't so bad. Just another layer most people don't have experience dealing with. Could use better counters. For example if I get up and dampen, it never gets retardation first. 
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    Antidas
  • TeshaTesha Posts: 2,855Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Makarios I think there are lots of LoS that aren't stopped by ret. Arrows are just about the only thing I can think of that isn't. Breathstream, soulspear, lightning, choke, crush, doppleganger. 

    Ret's being used a lot more now than it was a few months ago, so I think there will be a bit of a learning curve for people who don't fight in it often enough to adjust as rapidly as people who fight in it daily.

     i'm a rebel

  • KoganKogan Posts: 401Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    While I'd agree there is a learning curve for fighting in it period. Prop/sweep/trample/fly for free/holo should not be a thing and requires 0 prior knowledge to execute in my opinion. You could literally tell someone to dor just about all of those and be effective to a decent extent. Sure I can quake to remove the prop. Line of sight changes don't really fix this since most groups wait to drop ret in their room and keep it  adjacent. Not to mention its normally rooms where there is one room in LoS, the adjacent one, and no other way to force the fight but to get adjacent or fly in. Can now suppress from adjacent and cube I suppose, but it still doesn't address that I can't even risk entering the room unless we want to see who can cheese the fastest. I think the problem does boil down to ret needing sweeping changes to how other abilities work inside of it. I don't think any amount of line of sight changes will fix this. As raiders already have the advantage of being able to pick the room, and can pick one where line of sight is going to result in me getting delphed out and not them. 
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,404Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    just make ret apply hatred. Bam, done. Next argument please
  • KoganKogan Posts: 401Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aegoth said:
    just make ret apply hatred. Bam, done. Next argument please
    Bring back the Aegoth of March 2016. :P

     http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4597/retardation
  • TaryiusTaryius Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Changes to retardation are probably necessary, and I think tailsweep should be the target for these changes but very recent updates have added more counterplay then before.

    Now that reverb can be dampened from adjacent and cubes thrown you can actually move adjacent to the entrenched ret team and attempt line of sight or concussion beckon.

    Unlike before where the mage could drop ret adjacent, then when the opposing team moved they wouldn't be able to block before getting beckoned.
    Kogan
  • KoganKogan Posts: 401Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Taryius said:
    Changes to retardation are probably necessary, and I think tailsweep should be the target for these changes but very recent updates have added more counterplay then before.

    Now that reverb can be dampened from adjacent and cubes thrown you can actually move adjacent to the entrenched ret team and attempt line of sight or concussion beckon.

    Unlike before where the mage could drop ret adjacent, then when the opposing team moved they wouldn't be able to block before getting beckoned.
    They could if outdoors via fly/block then landing after blocking. Regardless. If at any point we enter each others room the first one to tailsweep wins. Thats it. Fight over. Its a shit mechanic. I know you're not disagreeing with that, but I don't think the counterplay to ret should be line of sight only. Then they could just rush your room drop ret and we're back to who lands the first tailsweep/trample. 
    Taryius
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,844Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not to mention LoS is stupid and boring. :(
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 932Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Farrah said:
    Not to mention LoS is stupid and boring. :(
    I am pretty sure that I've seen you post that lack of LoS makes other IRE games stupid and boring.
    Farrah
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,844Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2017
    Nazihk said:
    Farrah said:
    Not to mention LoS is stupid and boring. :(
    I am pretty sure that I've seen you post that lack of LoS makes other IRE games stupid and boring.

    Lack of melee because your only option is "don't enter the room" isn't what I meant!

    (And my comment wasn't about lack of LoS but lack of totems, ret, etc., to which ranged attacks are only one counter of many!)
  • IakimenIakimen Posts: 90Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tesha said:
    @Makarios I think there are lots of LoS that aren't stopped by ret. Arrows are just about the only thing I can think of that isn't. Breathstream, soulspear, lightning, choke, crush, doppleganger. 

    Handaxes are stopped u fool.
    Rom
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,011Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iakimen said:
    Tesha said:
    @Makarios I think there are lots of LoS that aren't stopped by ret. Arrows are just about the only thing I can think of that isn't. Breathstream, soulspear, lightning, choke, crush, doppleganger. 

    Handaxes are stopped u fool.
    Lightning too.
    image
  • CailanCailan Posts: 143Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2017
    Just type pray for salvation and get ahead of it

    Edit: Embrace death***
    Prythe
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,283Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 29
    Retardation has a 1200s timer. If the timer is reduced to randomly fade within 60-120s, dropping it will be more tactical than convenient, and assuming certain risk to upkeep it while waiting for engagement. 1v1 side, is good timing for good magi to lock up someone, or they could do that thing that refreshes the life of ret. 
    Shirszae
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,375Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That happens when you disarm the tank(s) and don't let the sanction continue.

  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,290Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 29
    See, even in a melee that results in disarming the tank you'll likely lose a couple bodies and extend the sanction. What Sobby is after is a win condition that ends the sanction.

    I feel like there should be one but it can't be as simple as wiping/disarming because then you'll just have guards moved in practically every raid.

    ETA; couldn't come up with a climax joke on the spot, sorry Sobby.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    SobriquetAsmodron
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 496Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 29
    There is an issue when even defending for a whole sanction is not a win condition. Just 2 logs ago is a situation where Mhaldor got sanction in Hashan, got soundly beaten and disarmed, sanction ended. 15 minutes later, Mhaldor gets sanction again and blows a tank. What's the 'win' condition for the defenders when the raiders are willing and able to just keep going for 2 or 3 hours? Denying sanction isn't even an option if you want to fight at all, since the engagement that got Mhaldor the second sanction was a loss for them, they just happened to get the requisite number of kills before wiping.
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,977Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Simplest solution is probably just tweaking up the sanction time penalty for killing a raider, then putting in an hour block after sanction fades before it can be gained again. The more convincingly you win, the more you'll swing the sanction timer in your favor. Then you get a guaranteed respite after 'winning'.

    Other possibility, I'm not sure if disarming a tank currently penalizes the sanction timer. I feel like disarming 2 tanks, unless it's some weird situation where the raiders are killing everyone and just delaying the tank to have a giant sanction timer, should probably be enough to kill a sanction timer.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Laedha
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,011Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The win condition is to do it back to the other team. :)
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    DalranTysandrCaelan
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,404Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Frankly some raiders know that all they have to do is keep the pressure on.

    Certain raid groups come in with 9 lives. Kill one and they will be right back. All they need to do is keep the pressure on while their tank builds. Most raiders dont care about the deaths as they will make up for it later. We've all seen the consecutive deaths people can have in a raid...and they will keep on coming.

    It has become a battle of attrition at this point.

    I've seen raids against Ashtan where we may get several kills but it means nothing, they will keep on popping up and in and eventually our own less resilient group will fall. There is no way to bring the tank counter down nor any way to end the sanction.

    All the defenders can do is either Ignore the raiders from the start and be mocked for it...or attempt to clear them out which, as described above, feels like an impossible task if they are determined enough. Unless you heavily have numbers/skills in your favor, then it is very likely they -will- get their tank.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,375Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Side note Sobriquet, not sure why you would bring up a specific person and example, and then use imaginary information for the rest of the post. You made it look like Mhaldor tried 3 tanks in the Cyrene raid and logs show only one was used, and it was detonated.

  • KietKiet Posts: 2,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 29
    My biggest issue with the raid system is that you don't gain anything for defending (well, xp, lol) successfully. You repel sanction attempts 5 times in a row, but if they get 1 pk each time they'll get a sanction, and then they entrench.

    @Iakimen does have a good point that the more you add in 'hard' win conditions, the more the other team has to concretely lose, though.

    Almost every raid Hashan does on us has two tank attempts on us, because the first one gets disarmed pretty fast and then they regroup, pick a better spot or bring more people or whatever. If we added 'hard' win conditions for the defender, then Hashan (or whatever city is trying to raid as the underdog) would get wiped once and then not be able to try again, and then they'd get very little practice in these scenarios. I suggested once that maybe you  should be able to deny a sanction more firmly, but then these groups wouldn't even get to ever place a tank. Is that ideal, either?

    Maybe the solution is to make defending more satisfying in some other way, like with bigger rewards for success, though then you encourage guards every time like someone said earlier. Maybe you should simply get rewarded for participation, rather than success, but I have no idea how you do that beyond the players just being encouraging, and that relies on 6 cities having consistently encouraging population.

    Maybe just fixing entrenchment fixes half of these issues, though.

    Or maybe the secret solution is to ban people from ever talking about raids from either perspective, the shout/news post shit talk or excuse-making lately is tiring and makes me feel like I'm playing overwatch or something. If we (and I'm including myself) all just cared a lot less about raids it'd maybe not be an issue
    SobriquetSherazad
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,633Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The problem with increasing defense win scenarios, is that raiding is already massively slated in the favor of the defending party. Totems, Font, Guards, plus denying sanction by not engaging, all equate to avenues for the defense party to make it a nightmare for the raiding party to have any success. I plan on attempting to address one issue I see though classleads, being that Font can be activated prior to sanction. Which means, I'm sitting here at 15-20 font stacks before I've even got a sanction, let alone charging a tank. The main reason raids are able to be successful, is that the raiders are allowed to try again after a wipe. It's too easy for a defense to wipe a raid group, imo.

    I don't think hard capping post wipe is fair to the offensive force, unless some things are added to reduce class disparity in raids (ie: More than Magi can stop guard summon, more than Monk can stop radiance, etc). I think raiding without those two classes should be feasible, while right now it can make raiding miserable if you don't have them. The rewards for both sides are paltry, though. The XP reward is really tiny, and having a higher army rank doesn't actually convey much benefit. Anyone that is good at defending/raiding will already have disarm/detonate capabilities etc.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Dunn
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,734Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reward for offensive team is that they get to pk on their terms, imo. Rewarding defence is more important since they're the ones that have to opt in.

    How to reward defence without just rewarding guards is hard to say, though. Maybe reward actual PKs by defenders with something like the memento system, but we really need assist xp/system before we do that or 'support' classes are gonna be even more shafted.
    CailinSobriquetSherazadYsela
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,977Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The answer to rewarding defenders in a way that doesn't reward guards should probably be on players. Anything mechanical will find a way to be abused, we've seen that from history.

    City leadership sets up a general framework for defenders. Involved in X defenses you can buy more in the next credit sale. Simple recognition for extreme measures taken (aka repelling three tanks from a raid group) from higher ups. Possible rank advancement. Extra discount at city shops. A city-pattern ring that denotes extreme service. "I survived a four hour raid" shirts. From a general framework it's not hard to adapt it to varying situations.

    There already exists a mechanical benefit for defense in experience, the same as you gain from succeeding in offense. You pay for not having initiative by having font and guards as possibilities. Maybe the mechanical stuff needs some slight tuning, but I'm not convinced there should be additional hard-coded effects.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    KietSherazad
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,011Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Problem is you all keep raiding on us timezone. Everyone knows we don't have these issues on eu timezone.
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