Cities

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  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    Daeir said:
    a fairly large section of the in-game population is a formidable foe, especially when it cannot be fought explicitly.
    So you want to act on our purely OOC characteristics?

    Targossas has >2000 villagers, according to the war terms; and you have the entire denizen population of Sapience you can focus on swaying to your ideals.
  • It was also something desired by a fair portion of the Shallamese playerbase as well. The difference is that the majority of Cyrenians are perfectly content with their city, so the whole Shallam solution wouldn't work. Hell, it'd probably backfire and cause the displaced folks to quit.. leading to an even smaller playerbase and amplification of issues.
  • If a fair portion of Shallamese had wanted to change, then Shallam wouldn't have had to be wholesale replaced -- the population then could have just reformed the city. I assume they didn't, hence the admins bringing the city down, and rebuilding from the ground up to remove the good for the Good.
     <3 
  • edited October 2017
    Mathilda said:
    If a fair portion of Shallamese had wanted to change, then Shallam wouldn't have had to be wholesale replaced -- the population then could have just reformed the city. I assume they didn't, hence the admins bringing the city down, and rebuilding from the ground up to remove the good for the Good.

    Not entirely true. You have history, lore, divine, and a whole lot of other baggage that would make the transition painful and possibly unable to happen. The events of the time really allowed for the fluid transition into a new ideology of Good, and the Bloodsworn to really give it the backing it deserved. There are some points where I dislike Targ, but having a city with space marine style ideology (maybe a bit of a stretch) is super awesome, and I do like how everything came out.
  • edited October 2017
    Reyson said:
    For the record, Cyrene does have some very cool people, as I mentioned!

    The last time I really tried to do anything as a kind of enemy-that-goads-you-into-doing-better thing, the person I had interacted with (I broke in just to speak with that person and see if something could come of it) ended up getting yelled at pretty massively (and demoted, I think?) for not just crying for help right away or something. That was sad to hear. It was a good conversation, and a really great moment, but I've kinda stayed away cuz I don't wanna get the cool people in trouble with my cooties or whatever it is Cyrenians are afraid of where Mhaldorians are concerned. 
    Krypton said:
    Off the top of my head, I do not recall a single CDF, let alone demotion, in the 10 years you've been enemied.

    Lmao. Cooties or no cooties, that situation you're referring to, was indisputably an Act of Treason/Insubordination, if we really wanted to be hardasses about the rules.
    As the person in question, I'm kind of baffled on how what happened was some kind of treason. @Reyson shows up at Keorin, and asks where @Shirszae is, because he doesn't recognize the room. Keorn tells him that I'm not about to say, and also she's pretty sure there are guards there. She also says that he should leave before he gets killed, but he's clearly not an active threat, and she doesn't exactly feel like getting someone killed right then (partly because she actually doesn't like killing much, partly because I feel like it's gonna be way more interesting of an interaction if I don't jump to calling for help. Plus, the tables seem to heavily suggest that you should try and solve similar situations nonviolently when possible). We end up talking tersely for a few minutes, at which point a security aide comes in and starts attacking him, so Keorin helps her kill him twice.

    A few hours later, I was stripped of my war aideship and corresponding army rank, without warning or discussion.  Which I think was mostly just because the then-minister of war hated me, but still, treason? It's the first I'm hearing of that.
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    You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

  • edited October 2017
    Daeir said:
    Antonius said:
    Daeir said:
    I don't see what the difference is.

    Mhaldor rejects Targossian ethos and ideology in favour of Sartan's because self improvement, hegemony, betterment of Creation, etc. Ashtan rejects it because subjugate everything under the Ascendant's will to power the growth of the Infernal Throne. Eleusis rejects it because grr cities paving over Nature hurts the world, people should live in harmony, etc, and then Cyrene rejects it because they'd rather assert their own way over the wisdom and gifts of the Bloodsworn Gods.

    Any way you roll the dice, the rejection is happening. There is no neutrality in saying "we do not agree with you". There is a citystate saying that "our laws and our culture is superior to the mandate of your gods and your faith".

    That is not neutral. What you call them is what you think of them, not what they actually are. There is no conceivable universe where the rejection of Devotion is not anything but a grave, onerous sin from a Targossian perspective. Pawing it off as something "not that bad" is precisely the kind of unassailable glint that I was discussing earlier in the thread. Cyrene is not immune from the consequences of their actions just because they are not an overt, combative threat.
    Targossas' goal is not to spread the teachings of the Bloodsworn and have them adopted by everyone in Achaea. There will be plenty of individuals, villages and even cities who disagree with them and decide "No, thank you, that's not for me." and that is perfectly okay as long as they're still in accordance with the natural and intended state of Creation (as defined by the teachings of Good).
    Absolutely, but is a citystate that knew and was taught those things, and then knowingly rejected it and aggressively denied a prominent means to spread them further acting in accordance with those ideals? That's the core issue here, and something that is very different from what happened with New Hope.

    I'm also not inclined to say that a city leader's position is absolute truth, or perhaps even informed perspective, sadly enough. There's been some pretty shonky CL's over the course of Achaea's history (especially recently). A CL can be very good in some domains, and very bad in others. Better to weight people's opinions on what they present, rather than who they supposedly are.

    Who said anything about absolute truth? I said it's silly to say there's no conceivable way blah blah when a former CL and current OH is saying the opposite. You're free to disagree on what should be. Your language of absolutes, including misframing my comment to be about "absolute truth" is arrogant and wrong.

    A CL's opinion is highly relevant - really, it's conclusive unless overturned by the Bsworn -to what Targossas's official position is, though, since IC the CL is the voice of the city. You're purporting to be proclaiming the actual position of Targossas, which is inaccurate if it goes against what Targossas is actually doing. Micaelis hasn't changed stance towards Cyrene since I was CL.

    But Targossas has been neutral towards Cyrene for as long as I've played Farrah. I never changed policy there. They aren't officially classified as "enemies." These are facts, regardless of whether you think they should change.
  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    Tysandr said:
    The utility of a thread like this approaches

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    You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.
    I don’t know about that. I’d like to think Kyrra’s done really well since moving to Ashtan from Cyrene.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Kyrra said:
    Tysandr said:
    The utility of a thread like this approaches

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    You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.
    I don’t know about that. I’d like to think Kyrra’s done really well since moving to Ashtan from Cyrene.
    Yeah, have you looked at HELP MHALDOR, lately? There are a ton of people who were previous Cyrenians for a stretch of time. Some longer than others for sure, but all the same. We laugh about it on a weekly basis.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • Space marine ideology fits Targ pretty well. Used to joke that Farrah was the Emperor of Mankind.  (Though not a zombie)
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • Keorin said:
    Aeryllin said:
    Daeir said:
     No leader should have a tenure that spans literal IRL years, no matter how good they are.
    I mean, honestly, why not?  If the people are happy and things are running smoothly - and by and large they are, else people wouldn't stay in the numbers they do - why not?  If it is not broken, why try to fix it?  You're more likely to make things worse than better.
    There's a lot of fundamental issues with an unchanging government, I think, and Cyrene's more specifically, but there are two big ones in my mind.

    loads of interesting stuff

    As a long term player who checks in now and then, these "state of the nation" threads are always really interesting to read, and try and get a temperature reading on how things are going.  The consistency of the themes across ten years or more is really interesting to me.

    Anyway, just checking in to say that @Keorin's point here is massively undervalued.  I have nothing but the highest respect for @Verrucht, who (on other chars) I've had the pleasure of RPing with but it's just wrong to hold on to a central position like that for so long.  No matter how good you are, no matter if you are still, after RL years the best person for the job, it's still wrong.  And it's bad for the game.

    I think you have a moral responsibility to step down after around 50 IC years (at an absolute maximum).  Take a breather.  Then, if you really can't help yourself, run again/put yourself forward again after a decent interval.  (The advantages of incumbency are massively overlooked in terms of position maintenance - if you can win re-election you're borderline competent.  If you can win re-election after you haven't held a position for 6 RL months, that's a different thing).  As open as you think you are to new ideas, as flexible and inclusive and non-cliquish as you believe yourself to be, it is an immutable law of human nature that you will have accumulated your biases, your traditions, your pool of advice, your go-to strategies.  You'll be blind to novelty in ways you can't even recognize.

    And this is before you even get into many of the great points @Keorin makes.

    If you are in the amazingly fortunate position of having been an org leader for 40/50 years, do yourself a favour.  Do your org a favour - take a breather.  I'd even be in favour of the divine mandating it.  It's not healthy.  (The removal of those 100 year honours lines was a great move, for example).

  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    Melodie said:
    Kyrra said:
    Tysandr said:
    The utility of a thread like this approaches

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    You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.
    I don’t know about that. I’d like to think Kyrra’s done really well since moving to Ashtan from Cyrene.
    Yeah, have you looked at HELP MHALDOR, lately? There are a ton of people who were previous Cyrenians for a stretch of time. Some longer than others for sure, but all the same. We laugh about it on a weekly basis.
    Shhhhhh shhhhhhh








    Mel we don't talk about that around the children.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • Generalising an entire group of people, is what's not okay. That goes for anything, really.

    Being one doesn't give you any more right to do that.
  • Alyxeri said:
    Generalising an entire group of people, is what's not okay. That goes for anything, really.

    Being one doesn't give you any more right to do that.
    LOL.

    Okay. 

    (I was fighting for queer rights before most Achaeans were born, I'll take the heat for this and just continue to giggle. Heck, I'll even make it a topic at our next CR group -where we vote on what to discuss in a very orderly fashion- and get back to you with the consensus.)

    Want a chocolate? :) 

    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


  • Because being condescending when you're called out, definitely means you're correct. Not that I'm entirely surprised, at this point.

    [spoiler] Am I doing this right? [/spoiler]
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    Melodie said:
    Man, Aluine is still allowed to sit at CC in Cyrene and talk shit after the aforementioned incident? Christ above.
    I'm like three pages behind, catching up on this thread, but I wanted to go ahead and point out that she's been a hairs breadth away from becoming Blu chow on several occasions.
    Huh. Neat.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    edited October 2017
    Pfffff.


    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • Melodie said:
    Pfffff.


    Man, I love that sound clip so much.
  • Who cares about Cities now that we want the biggest release ever! 
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