Venom combinations and overall Knight Combat Techniques

Sena

Sidonia said:

Basically give everybody shrugging? No thanks.

Sounds to me more like "give shrugging to people with high armour stats and it only works against low-damage weapons". It just means you need decent weapon damage stats to deal with high armour, in addition to needing decent to-hit stats to deal with high dodging.

Sidonia

To give it a serious answer, I'm opposed to this idea because:
1) RNG negation of venoms is a frustrating mechanic
2) Skews the scale even more towards the one-in-a-million weapons (high damage high speed)
3) Bards, sentinels and anybody who throws daggers/axes for venoms potentially also affected
4) Priests and knights (the most armoured classes) don't need more defence
5) Mastery (the ability) is all about bypassing defences, so RP-wise it doesn't mesh

Sena

I'm not sure whether the idea is a good one or not, but to address the realism arguments:
"Using heavier weapons to deal with heavier armour" isn't really accurate. Against someone in full plate armour, there's basically no way you're hurting them by slashing anywhere on their body. Trying to penetrate openings or weak points with a dagger is also unlikely to do much if the armour is made well. Your best chance would generally be to try to wrestle them to the ground or use strong blunt attacks (the armour still leaves them somewhat vulnerable to broken bones and especially head trauma).

tl;dr Achaean armour is extremely unrealistic and attempts at realism aren't going to help you with balancing weapons.

Mizik

The best way to balance it would be to take away the choice in perks. First step: isolate the weapons to class only. Knights auto specialize. Battleaxes remain the same as he heavy hitting doubleslash. Rapiers are Bard only.

Paladin: Scimitar

Infernal: Longswords

Runewarden: Broadswords

Now apply the weapon only perks to artefacts. Now that we have isolated the weapons to specific classes, we have minimized the possible collateral effect (IE anything made into a Runeblade)

Ex: 

Scimitars: 30% faster Arc balance at lv 3 (Hellsight + herb aff)

Longswords: 30% faster Raze balance at lv 3 (Shield whoring on breaks)

Broadswords: 30% faster Impale at lv 3 (Hell no, just an example)

We are now allowed to lower the strength modifier on doubleslash and the Chivalry base damage and weapons are fixed.

Trey

That's great, but you forgot the bit with giving me a two-handed sword so I can stop being a dual-wielding twat

Edit: and be a bastard-wielding twat

Vadimuses

Mizik said:

The best way to balance it would be to take away the choice in perks. First step: isolate the weapons to class only. Knights auto specialize. Battleaxes remain the same as he heavy hitting doubleslash. Rapiers are Bard only.

Paladin: Scimitar

Infernal: Longswords

Runewarden: Broadswords

Now apply the weapon only perks to artefacts. Now that we have isolated the weapons to specific classes, we have minimized the possible collateral effect (IE anything made into a Runeblade)

Ex: 

Scimitars: 30% faster Arc balance at lv 3 (Hellsight + herb aff)

Longswords: 30% faster Raze balance at lv 3 (Shield whoring on breaks)

Broadswords: 30% faster Impale at lv 3 (Hell no, just an example)

We are now allowed to lower the strength modifier on doubleslash and the Chivalry base damage and weapons are fixed.

I like this base - lets add Treys doublehanders idea, because if this'll go in, might as well fix some other long-standing requests, too.

Darklyre

Trey said:

That's great, but you forgot the bit with giving me a two-handed sword so I can stop being a dual-wielding twat Edit: and be a bastard-wielding twat

Better than a twat-wielding bastard, I suppose.

Rispok

Mizik said:

The best way to balance it would be to take away the choice in perks. First step: isolate the weapons to class only. Knights auto specialize. Battleaxes remain the same as he heavy hitting doubleslash. Rapiers are Bard only.

Paladin: Scimitar

Infernal: Longswords

Runewarden: Broadswords

Now apply the weapon only perks to artefacts. Now that we have isolated the weapons to specific classes, we have minimized the possible collateral effect (IE anything made into a Runeblade)

Ex: 

Scimitars: 30% faster Arc balance at lv 3 (Hellsight + herb aff)

Longswords: 30% faster Raze balance at lv 3 (Shield whoring on breaks)

Broadswords: 30% faster Impale at lv 3 (Hell no, just an example)

We are now allowed to lower the strength modifier on doubleslash and the Chivalry base damage and weapons are fixed.

While I can see advantages to this for combat, it looks unattractive on paper for pve.

Mizik

I don't even know how to reply to that.

I'm out this bitch.

Iocun

@Mizik needs lessons in kindness.

Mizik

Iocun said:

@Mizik needs lessons in kindness.

Well, come on, man, that wasn't even fair. I'm over here putting down concrete ideas for the public's insatiable, abstract wish list, and turbo here shows up to tell me it would make bashing (presumably comparatively) ugly.

It's your fault Tecton quit working on classleads, @Rispok.

Invictus

Yes, we need more Knight combatants. Go Go!

Exelethril

Vadimuses said:

Mizik said:

The best way to balance it would be to take away the choice in perks. First step: isolate the weapons to class only. Knights auto specialize. Battleaxes remain the same as he heavy hitting doubleslash. Rapiers are Bard only.

Paladin: Scimitar

Infernal: Longswords

Runewarden: Broadswords

Now apply the weapon only perks to artefacts. Now that we have isolated the weapons to specific classes, we have minimized the possible collateral effect (IE anything made into a Runeblade)

Ex: 

Scimitars: 30% faster Arc balance at lv 3 (Hellsight + herb aff)

Longswords: 30% faster Raze balance at lv 3 (Shield whoring on breaks)

Broadswords: 30% faster Impale at lv 3 (Hell no, just an example)

We are now allowed to lower the strength modifier on doubleslash and the Chivalry base damage and weapons are fixed.

I like this base - lets add Treys doublehanders idea, because if this'll go in, might as well fix some other long-standing requests, too.

Awesomeness, might be able to retain the functionality of doubleslashes even with a double-handed sword too(if aesthetics was just the intent). A possible idea is envenoming twice on the two-hander and have the sword slash twice on a single balance, similar to a serpent's doublestab.

For example, if targetting right leg - With practiced precision, <Person> rapidly slashes you horizontally and diagonally across your right leg with a massive bastard sword.

Different messages can be used for flavour as well as to account for one slash missing and the other hitting or both missing and such.

Mordric

Exelethril said:

Vadimuses said:

Mizik said:

The best way to balance it would be to take away the choice in perks. First step: isolate the weapons to class only. Knights auto specialize. Battleaxes remain the same as he heavy hitting doubleslash. Rapiers are Bard only.

Paladin: Scimitar

Infernal: Longswords

Runewarden: Broadswords

Now apply the weapon only perks to artefacts. Now that we have isolated the weapons to specific classes, we have minimized the possible collateral effect (IE anything made into a Runeblade)

Ex: 

Scimitars: 30% faster Arc balance at lv 3 (Hellsight + herb aff)

Longswords: 30% faster Raze balance at lv 3 (Shield whoring on breaks)

Broadswords: 30% faster Impale at lv 3 (Hell no, just an example)

We are now allowed to lower the strength modifier on doubleslash and the Chivalry base damage and weapons are fixed.

I like this base - lets add Treys doublehanders idea, because if this'll go in, might as well fix some other long-standing requests, too.

Awesomeness, might be able to retain the functionality of doubleslashes even with a double-handed sword too(if aesthetics was just the intent). A possible idea is envenoming twice on the two-hander and have the sword slash twice on a single balance, similar to a serpent's doublestab.

For example, if targetting right leg - With practiced precision, <Person> rapidly slashes you horizontally and diagonally across your right leg with a massive bastard sword.

Different messages can be used for flavour as well as to account for one slash missing and the other hitting or both missing and such.

I like this idea. You could justify it by saying that x venom is on one edge of the blade, while x venom is on the other.

Invictus

I'd like to see someone doubleslash me with a huge bastard sword.

Antonius

Any suggestions that force specific Knight classes to use specific weapons are a total bust; the goal should be to allow more choices, not fewer.

Wessux

I echo @Antonius on that one.

Wessux

@Mizik @Mishgul @Jhui @Santar

I think knights should have another way to prone other than double delph. Serpent shrugging is the only real reason I want one. Monks, dragons, blademasters, and sentinels all have one. What are your thoughts gentlemen?

Also, you guys were the first to come to mind that, I think, can give a fair and logical reason on why we should or should not have one.

Exelethril

Wessux said:

@Mizik @Mishgul @Jhui @Santar

I think knights should have another way to prone other than double delph. Serpent shrugging is the only real reason I want one. Monks, dragons, blademasters, and sentinels all have one. What are your thoughts gentlemen?

Also, you guys were the first to come to mind that, I think, can give a fair and logical reason on why we should or should not have one.

Off topic but If serpents had a possibility of shrugging every venom except double delph, shrugging might be slightly more balanced. It's a nightmare to see tens of minutes worth of prep go down the drain to a single/double shrugged double delph on a leg break.

Santar

Stop trying to nerf shrugging. Every class has defensive abillities. Serpents have no others forms of protection other than shrugging, nor do they have very much hindering. 

In response to the double delph always going through - Absolutely not. That's essentially you saying that you want shrugging to only work when it doesn't matter much, and for it to not work against the things that do matter. I'm quite sure you -would-  like shrugging to never work when you don't want it to. Also, you're not having to spend 10 minutes to prep a Serpent. That's a gross exaggeration. Limb prep doesn't take more than a couple of minutes to prep unless you're against ridiculous hindering classes or classes with good defense against it(bards/occultists). In addition to that, if delph/delph is shrugged, that's only 1 leg that you have to reprep. You don't lose your whole prep.  Every class has the potential to blow their prep. Combat shouldn't be as simple as prepping and then just winning once you do. There has to be a lot of randomness/opportunity involved to make it interesting. You shouldn't expect to do the same thing against every class and to have it work the same. I'd love for fitness, rite of healing, halleluhah, grove heal, demon refuge, Priest heal, and necklace of purity to be removed.  Sure would benefit my class. 

Shrugging isn't overpowered. Knights don't need another way to prone. Perhaps you're forgetting the multitude of defenses that each of the Knight classes have against Serpents(fitness, rune of healing, rite of healing). Serpent vs. Knight is equally balanced for each person right now. It's a matchup that is almost always decided by player skill, and nothing needs to be changed on either side.

Also, I have no idea why I was 'tagged' in the above post. Please don't tag me in posts/topics that I have nothing to do with.

Wessux

Wanted your opinion. You always know what you're talking about, and I have great respect for you.

Santar

Oh, and on a slightly different note, the only thing that should be changed about shrugging is that Serpent bites should ignore shrugging in Serpent vs. Serpent combat. Bites so weak anyways, but when you throw in a 33% chance for them to do nothing, it's just useless.

Jovolo

Prepping a serpent is not straightforward with shrugging, what are you talking about? Shrugging is basically a random factor that decides whether or not a Knight must reprep 2 to 3 limbs, and torso. If the delph delph gets blocked, its not ONE round of dsl's on that leg to reprep it, unless you are forgetting the most basic defensive measures against Knights. Arguing that serpents have no other defensive measures is a bs argument. Shrugging needs to be REPLACED with a reasonable defensive measure like active curing. Serpent offense is already getting buffed to allow for easier sticking of weariness due to faster-than-herb-bal bite speed. Shrugging is in no way fine or balanced except possibly against infernals, where it still remains dumb anyway.

(If you dsl 1.9 or faster and go for the absolutely quickest dsb setup, break torso and then break a leg delph/delph but the delph/delph is blocked. That means you have to bypass parry for 6 to 7 dsl's on your average serpent every single time this happens. This is NOT easy against shrugging, nor is it easy against a smart opponent in the first place. 

tl;dr replace shrugging with an active curing ability to resolve their vulnerability to afflictions.akin to jester, at the most give them a passive curing ability (but probably shouldn't be adding passive curing to the game).

Jovolo

In addition to the weapon balancing discussion, very much in agreement with Antonius. Forcing each Knight class to only be able to specialise in a set few weapons isn't a good idea. Just had an idea myself: 

Stock weapon stats for each weapon type. Roughly equivalent to a level 2 artifact of the same weapon, with a few points lower on damage and to-hit, and a few higher on speed. (Level 3 will of course be higher in every stat. I argue that the improved speed is fine, because the level 1 + 2 artifacts will still be non-decay, open to customisation and have good-enough stats for combat as well as almost NEVER missing on an opponent). 

However, the stock weapon stats will not be assigned to the weapons (apart from initially), but instead to weapon specialisations (that can be learned from certain weapon specialisation teachers around Sapience). 

Syntax: LEARN <specialisation> SPECIALISATION FOR <weapon> FROM <specialisation tutor>.

For example: 

+ Speed (rapier stock)
+ Brute Damage (Battleaxe stock)
+ Dat Bleeding (Scimitar stock)

+ Accuracy (Shortsword stock)

And likewise for other stock specialisation stats. 

You can then purchase any weapon and use it effectively as long as you have a proficiency. The weapon will initially have its stock weapon stats. You can go to any of these weapon specialisation tutors once an Achaean month and learn a new specialisations. This will allow knights to apply certain weapon specialisations to different weapons (You should be allowed to span different specialisations across different weapons to allow for variety while actually fighting). However, for flavour, you can now pair any weapon with any specialisation. 

Something like that. You'll get the rough idea.

Mishgul

The advice in this thread seems really one dimensional. Combat through imitation is an okay start but adaptation and innovation is not an easy thing to teach and all three knight classes need a lot of it if they want to beat people like tirac, tanris and tynil ( the three T's). I single these guys out because they all cure in completely different manners, but are very effective. They are extremely difficult to vivi, disembowel, focuslock, manalock or pipelock.

I am tempted to write a piece on high end achaean combat, but i cant promise to make it an enlightening read. I love to learn but i a. A shit teacher.

Jovolo

I haven't seen any advice in this thread. I thought it was talking about weapons xD

Mishgul

First page has some awful things on it

Mishgul

Also shrugging is fine, easy to get aroind

Mizik

Shrugging walking the plank.

so dumb

Arditi

Mizik said:

Shrugging walking the plank. so dumb

Will trade shrugging for three line illusions.