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Venom combinations and overall Knight Combat Techniques

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  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,942 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    doubt it will go in anytime soon.  I have no idea if any ideas are even settled on.  Once that is even figured out, it will still take a long time after that.
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    Zeon
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iocun said:
    Aepas said:
    if you just set your system to do prefarar/curare, repeat DSL on balance, and  then go make a sandwich, you'll be able to kill me just fine. Pro knight status for you Sir
    Wow, you must suck!
    indeed good sir
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
  • XerXer TorontoMember Posts: 804 @ - Epic Achaean
    And here I thought all the guy needed was to attach a fist sigil to his rapier!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
    TvistorTasleus
  • TvistorTvistor Member Posts: 2,883 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's what I was thinking.
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
    Tasleus
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,790 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tecton, Cardan, & Co have mentioned that they're looking into an overhaul of the weaponry system to make it more varied and less "speed is king". They haven't given any details or timeframe, though, which is understandable because the weaponry system is such a huge, far-reaching game element that the smallest tweaks could impact half a dozen classes, in addition to the obvious significance to the knight classes.

    No one has any idea what it will come out looking like, and it's possible that the way Chivalry works might have to change with it because of how closely they're related. It's just too large and complicated of a project for anyone to really speculate on what the changes might be.
    Xer said:
    And here I thought all the guy needed was to attach a fist sigil to his rapier!
    Even without a fist sigil, the noob obviously wasn't Gripping.
    -- Grounded in one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    XerTasleus
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,019 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, think about it. Let's simplify it. What change will impact the game adequately? Do we want to make all weapons fast? If 'speed is king', then are we trying to slow combat down overall? What does the public want? Why are we revamping weapons?

    Do you want your weapons of choice to be faster, or do you want combat and curing (herb, salve, smoke , focus bal) to be slowed? Do you want weapons to just be flavour? Any bit helps.
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    Jhui
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,174 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think we should start with idea that we want to introduce variety into the system. The way it's set up currently, rapiers are the goto weapon for any knight. Let's figure out how the system needs to be tweaked so that longswords, broadswords, scimitars, bastard swords (which I've never seen in my Achaean career. Didn't know we had them til I looked at the help file just now.), battleaxes, and warhammers are viable given achievable weapon stats. Rapiers should not be the goto weapon. Heck I don't even feel like they're appropriate for a knight.

    Something else I'd like to see is for knights to be able to wield a shield and a sword, and still be dangerous. This is probably just a fruitless dream though. 
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    Chryenth
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,174 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Alright, let me ramble. Bear with me.

    First, why are rapiers the go to weapons?

    Rapiers are the only knight weapons that are always faster than two herb balances. Using rapiers and an intelligent selection and sequence of venoms allows a knight to stack afflictions.

    Why does a knight want to stack afflictions?

    - Bypass parry
    - Increase damage
    - Slow curing by soft and venom locks
    - Hinder

    So, if we want all weapons on a level playing field, then all will have to provide these characteristics in some manner. That doesn't mean that every weapon must be equally effective in each characteristic, though.

    So, here's what I've got for weapon ideas.

    Across the board:
    Duel wielding gives a 25% reduction in damage per weapon, so a dsl would hit for 150% of a single jab.

    Longsword:
    Mid damage, low-mid balance recovery (2s)

    Broadsword:
    Mid-High damage, mid balance recovery (2.4s)

    Shortsword:
    If DEX isn't reworked, leave this to the newbs as an accurate but weak weapon.
    If DEX is reworked, make it fast. Current rapier speed and damage.

    Scimitar:
    Eh drawing a blank on this one. Can't thing of a way to make it different enough from shortswords and long swords.

    Bastard sword:
    Highest damage, always bypasses parry/guarding/orb. 1 second windup, 1 second stun, long balance recovery (5s).

    Rapier:
    Least damage, less than it is now. Short balance recovery (1.3s). Meant purely to stack venoms.

    Battleaxe:
    2nd highest damage. 0.5 second stun, long balance recovery (4s).

    Morning Star:
    Mid range damage, target bleeds 25 on every attack. Medium balance recovery (3s)

    Flail:
    Mid-low range damage, target bleeds 40 on every attack. Medium balance recovery (3s)

    Lance:
    Wieldable only while riding. High damage, dismounts target on connect if target is riding. 

    Shields:
    Wielding a shield allows the knight to follow a weaponry attack with shield bash, stunning the opponent for 0.5s (not stackable with other weaponry stun) and dealing a small amount of damage, say about the same as a rapier jab. The shield bash functions as a dsl in that it takes on the balance of the wielded weapon.

    The musings of a mind tier combatant, but there you have it. Don't be too hard on me. 

    :-S
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    ZeonHawekJemba
  • SidoniaSidonia Member Posts: 364 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    With those particular numbers I don't see why anybody would use anything other than rapiers except on level 50 people who die in 3 DSLs
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,174 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah I'm sure my numbers are way off as far as balancing things. I was thinking that rapiers would be super low damage, even with sensitivity would only land around current rapier damage. The idea is that rapiers stack venoms, so that kills would come from sensitivity, darkshade, venomlocks to slow sipping/moss. Prep would take forever, so dsb wouldn't be ideal with rapiers.
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  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,019 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    Honestly, if all weapons were just flavour we'd lose nothing - they're already not being used. Keep battleaxes as they are, Prof-wise Paladins get scimitars, longswords Infernals, Runewardens broadswords. All three stat clones on rapier artefact stat tier.

    Rapier becomes Bard class weapon, and look, we can adjust rapier stats to suit that class only without having a 3 class collateral.

    Can't do shield. They add damage resist. Boosting Knight resist bad. Maybe Bard/Sentinel (since Sentinel is Achilles from Troy).
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    AradorVelyseFrizticPraxides
  • SidoniaSidonia Member Posts: 364 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2013
    Even so, 1.3 second dsl is a good deal faster than any other afflicting class, and with that amount of hinder the longer prep time wouldn't really be a problem imo. Also, not to disparage your idea, but it presents the same problems as the current system. Unless it's constantly tweaked when other changes to the game are made, there will be certain weapons that are just better. I think the most annoying thing for me was when I tested my weapons (a while ago) and my rapiers did more damage per second than my scimitars or broadswords, as well as being more versatile both defensively and offensively because of the shorter balance time, more venoms and more frequent crits.

    edit: I both like and don't like weapons being just flavour. It'd add cosmetic customisability but at the opportunity cost of not diversifying potential strategies.
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,174 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    </3 All that thinking, gone to waste :'(
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  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,019 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Blunt weapons are a whole different nightmare. Another day.
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  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,019 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    Sidonia said:

    It'd add cosmetic customisability but at the opportunity cost of not diversifying potential strategies.

    Yeah, but it wouldn't.

    And the only valid complaint is they don't like roleplaying just one weapon. Combat balance is what it is. Obviously speed will be favorable.
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  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,673 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    Mizik said:
    (since Sentinel is Achilles from Troy).


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    Didn't know you thought of me this way Mizik.


    Post edited by Rangor on
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    Chryenth
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,673 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    Back to weaponry though.

    I'd like the different weapon the stats to be something the forger chose, not had a chance to get.
    Give damage a larger impact on limb damage + bleeding.

    Let the forger choose what type of weapon it will be. scimitar/longsword for faster knight weapons, battleaxe/broadsword for damage knight weapons.

    Rapiers for bards 

    Bastardswords, Halberds, Poleaxes and so on for whomever else who to jab/behead people with only weaponry and no chivalry. (RIP DIRK JAB)

    Dirk/whips for serpents.

    Handaxe/Spear/Trident for sentinels.

    Flails/Warhammers remains the shatter weapon of choice. High damage shatters against dragons(warhammer), or fast shatters against normal people(flail).


    Jesters can use daggers for juggling/throwing.

    quaterstaff/elemental staff for druids/sylvans/mages.

    No throwing weapons for anyone but sentinel/jester?

    Rebalance shield/armour stats/types/class separation since everything sorta changed with race/trait changes.


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  • LyrLyr Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Spiked maces that are envenomable for priests?!

    I can dream.
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068 @ - Epic Achaean
    Lyr said:
    Spiked maces that are envenomable for priests?!

    I can dream.
    If I can envenom my knuckles sure!
    Shunsui
  • ShunsuiShunsui Member Posts: 681 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nemutaur said:
    Lyr said:
    Spiked maces that are envenomable for priests?!

    I can dream.
    If I can envenom my knuckles sure!
    Would switch back to monk and buy lvl3 knuckles in a heartbeat

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,159 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rangor said:

    Back to weaponry though.


    I'd like the different weapon the stats to be something the forger chose, not had a chance to get.
    Give damage a larger impact on limb damage + bleeding.

    Let the forger choose what type of weapon it will be. scimitar/longsword for faster knight weapons, battleaxe/broadsword for damage knight weapons.

    Rapiers for bards 

    Bastardswords, Halberds, Poleaxes and so on for whomever else who to jab/behead people with only weaponry and no chivalry. (RIP DIRK JAB)

    Dirk/whips for serpents.

    Handaxe/Spear/Trident for sentinels.

    Flails/Warhammers remains the shatter weapon of choice. High damage shatters against dragons(warhammer), or fast shatters against normal people(flail).


    Jesters can use daggers for juggling/throwing.

    quaterstaff/elemental staff for druids/sylvans/mages.

    No throwing weapons for anyone but sentinel/jester?

    Rebalance shield/armour stats/types/class separation since everything sorta changed with race/trait changes.


    Except I want a bastard sword cosmetically for my knight. Enough of this dual-wielding bullshit, my name isn't Drizzt ffs.

    Friztic
  • TvistorTvistor Member Posts: 2,883 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    image

    I am gay for this knight, and if anyone recognizes him we are now best friends.
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
    Rugnar
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,159 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mandorallen ftw

    Tvistor
  • TvistorTvistor Member Posts: 2,883 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thank god, I was afraid I'd have to be best friends with Mizik or something.

    Mandorallen is the mightiest knight on life.
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
  • HaliosHalios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I really don't know how to fix it considering the tank scaling and immense amount of defensive skills. If you increase the damage on heavy weapons to make the idea of the bastard-sword wielding uber knight a reality, the scaling would be such that he would end up killing a mid-level player in like one to two hits. 

    I don't know how you balance damage relevance so that it makes it viable to use damage as a tactic to kill an artied dragon apostate/magi/insert tanky class here, but not make it overpowered and the new default.

    The whole concept of a knight is just sad in Achaea to me. You have people in full-plate, the epitome of melee rough and tumble bruiser combatants relying on the same weaponry as a light-footed bard.

  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,790 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    The issue, like Mizik pointed out with his first post, is that knight classes are tied to so many fundamental game mechanics (The everyone-can-use-it Weaponry skill, salve balances, herb balances, writhing off blades) that are not knight-specific, to make any kind of meaningful change to the class or its tactics means a complete re-design of knights and how they work, or a complete overhaul of the game and how it works. You can't just take rapier speed away from them, or our ability to land disembowels and vivisects becomes nil, and just raising other weapons up to rapier status wouldn't change anything except the text that scrolls by.

    The best idea I can come up with is take the Blademaster approach and remove DSL's damage, speed, and accuracy dependencies on weapon stats and give it its own inherent values that are able to be balanced freely of Weaponry mechanics. (Weaponry damage could still be used to determine limb damage, so limb counting doesn't become universal and easily anticipated!) Next, give each weapon bonuses and penalties that modify DSL's base speed and damage, (Giving any weapon less accuracy than another would just mark it for disregard by the players) and give each a "perk" that would make weapon choice more than flavor and add a level of tactical variety, but that wouldn't put one weapon clearly above the others:

    Battleaxes: extra damage, slower speed, could ignore some damage reduction (stacking with Mastery) to help "damage knights."
    Broadswords: no bonuses, no penalties, could break limbs faster than other bladed weapons on account of their weight.
    Longswords: no bonues, no penalties, could...Lunge/Arc/Raze faster. (I can't think of a good one)
    Scimitars: no bonuses, no penalties, could deal extra disembowel damage because of their curve. (Could become Paladin's starting proficiency, given its origins)
    Rapiers: less damage, faster speed, could have a chance to bypass parry (a la Airfist/Vinewreath), but deal less disembowel damage to account for that easy setup.

    Lastly, make knights SPECIALISE IN a weapon like Bards have to do for instruments in order to get that weapon perk. They can learn all the proficiencies and use all the weapons they want, but only get the perk from their specialization, so you can't use broadswords to prep the first limbs faster, switch to rapiers to bypass parry on the last limb, and then switch to scimitars to guarantee your disembowel kill.

    I'm not good enough with numbers to offer how STR health-scaling should factor in, but it feel like if battleaxes were on one end of the spectrum with an average 1400 damage on a 2.5 second balance, rapiers on the other with an average 700 damage at a 1.8 second balance, and longswords/broadswords/scimitars somewhere in the middle at 1000 every 2.2, we'd be pretty close. Battleaxes would become the king of damage (500 damage/sec) plus their damage reduction bypass, and could now actually use venoms, but they can't disembowel, so they'd become very momentum based. Rapier damage (370 damage/sec) would get dropped to about about 80% of what it is, now, but they can make up for that with prefarar stacks and other venom use, as well as the ease of limb-setups for burst damage. Longswords, broadswords, scimitars would live in the middle, (450 damage/sec) without the damage reduction bypass of axes or the speed of rapiers, but would still have their own unique advantages and could still be fast enough to stack venoms and disembowel/vivisect.

    That's the best I have.
    -- Grounded in one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,159 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    In that scenario, except for hardcore disembowel setups everyone still goes for rapier. Would kill for 1.8s dsl without frenzy.

  • TanrisTanris Member Posts: 683 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Aerek: interesting concept. You couldn't have bonuses like faster/slower writhe and faster/slower lunge, because there'd be no penalty to just switching weapons to get the bonus you wanted in those specific instances, but something of that nature could be interesting.
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,159 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:

    In that scenario, except for hardcore disembowel setups everyone still goes for rapier. Would kill for 1.8s dsl without frenzy.

    Also, by making weapons for knights perform independent of stats you are flat -murdering- forging as a tradeskill.

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