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Venom combinations and overall Knight Combat Techniques

TasleusTasleus Posts: 84Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
So, I wanted to start a discussion to help myself get better with Knight Combat. Right now, I'm catching on to some things, but still not getting the overall flow of combat (Right, @Aerek?) I think I can improve a lot by just focusing on some Venom combos and when certain strategies are okay in battle. So - 

THINGS I'D LIKE TO LEARN : 
-----------------------------------------------------

> Venom Combos - Which are appropriate for use in certain parts of battle? When are hindering venom combos good? When are kelp stacks good? Other specific useful combos!
> Venom Locking  - How to do it and what venoms to use.
> Limb Counting    - The do's and don't's.
> Parry Strategy    - Do you all really type PLL and PRL in the midst of battle? If so, this will just take practice. If not, clue me in! :D
> Combat Flow      - Stages of combat for Limb Counting classes and when it's okay to just be all RUNESTACK ALL THE RUNES and the like.


Also, any other advice would be greatly appreciated :D Thanks in advance for the help!
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Comments

  • SimolnSimoln Posts: 136Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    As a knight, venom locking is pretty much out the window because you can't give impatience. Limb breaks and/or damage out is your bread and butter. That said, your venoms will be mostly hinder and stacking. Curare, xentio, prefarar, kalmia, vernalius, aconite, digitalis, etc. Curare to get past parry, learn your counting based on their max health, and know when to drop your rune stacks before the final break.
    TasleusMilitis
  • TeshaTesha Posts: 2,758Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    I would suggest getting svo's limbcounter and some similar damage rapiers (mine are exactly the same), then study the document to remember the aliases. The venoms were really hard for me so I made an alias for venom combos, what works for me is curare on the left (everyone seems to cure it first and that way they are paralysed for your right rapier) and other venoms on the right. I like offensive right-hand venoms except for kalmia and sometimes xentio if they have more artifacts than I have trans skills. The limbcounter will have wrong suggestions occasionally but you can override it. Good luck. :)

    Oh... as for the strategy, the typical disembowel is torso/arm/double leg. I would recommend avoiding trying to damage people out, it will be good for smaller targets but if you do not work on the other strategies, you will have a lot of trouble against more resilient targets. I am still learning myself, so I don't like using my longswords and trying to outdamage most people. The most important thing that has helped me is being really, really patient. 

     i'm a rebel

    Tvistor
  • TasleusTasleus Posts: 84Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Yeah, Patience is a virtue that I'm learning the hard way right now. I think I've -lost- my past 20 spars or so.
    image
  • TvistorTvistor Posts: 2,883Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pipelocking and riftlocking still work. A riftlock is when your opponent has both his arms broken (l2 breaks to avoid restore) and the herbs he needs to get his arms functioning again are in the rift. He can't remove them because his arms are down. (So with asthma/slickness he'd be pretty dead)

    Pipelocking just needs you to break both arms and ensure the pipe he is using to cure slickness is empty. He can't refill it because his arms are broken and can't cure his arms because he is slick.
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
    Arador
  • TasleusTasleus Posts: 84Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    are either of these valid strategies for the arena?
    image
  • ZeonZeon Posts: 757Member
    No.

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

  • ZeonZeon Posts: 757Member
    They are barely effective out of the arena these days.

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

    TvistorMilitis
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,214Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    In response to @Aerek on the parry strategy. I use svo's parry strategies set to a hotkey... pressing the hotkey cycles through lasthit, last hit opposite side, lasthit opposite limb, manual. Its very effectve, but you have to keep an eye on what your opponent is hittingnso you can compensate. And after you've been limb hit for awhile, static parrying a leg becomes quite effective.

    Also, Iocun has built a parry system that predicts the next limb hit. Might PM him and ask how effective it is
    image
  • ZeonZeon Posts: 757Member
    edited January 2013
    Markov chains are where it's at.

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

    JhuiEldTvistorIocun
  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,505Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    My parry system isn't bad, but in the end I made it more as a conceptual proof-of-concept thing, than as a significant improvement over much simpler ways to parry (such as static parry). I find it useful against certain classes, but against the primary limb breakers (monks, knights, dragons, blademasters, etc.) I don't actually use it anymore (mostly because my parry system takes time to adapt itself for optimal performance, which is a luxury I don't always want to afford) but simply always parry whichever of my legs is currently less damaged. Essentially, that's almost the same as static parry, but it has some small advantages over it.

    There are some exceptions, even for those classes, when I will parry another limb, but they're very specific and relatively rare (e.g. sometimes it can be useful to parry head against a monk to avoid a wwk-dismount).

    There's no need to get oneself too worked up over optimal parrying though, since all parrying does is prolong prepping time. That's still relevant, yes, but getting fully prepped is still not already a loss, in many cases.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAPosts: 1,813Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    @Jacen To each their own, and perhaps we should spar so I can see your method in action, but I would rather fight someone who moves their parry over someone who leaves it static every time. Static parries mean I have to circumvent it, and those methods all take time and have their pros and cons. Moving your parry, even if you do it well, means that eventually I'll get you without having to use those circumvention methods. Even if you move it around and then switch to static, that still means I probably just need one or two hits on that parried limb, which is much easier to get than prepping the whole thing from start to finish while under parry.

    @Iocun A system like that would be pretty impressive if it worked, but I can still only think of a few situations where it would actually be superior to static or intelligently-moved manual parries, and those are only if it can predict the next limb hit during the key hits of specific knight/monk/blademaster's final setups. Most of the time, like you say, just static parrying the least-damaged leg/important limb is best.

    @Zeon Markov chains?

    Edit: Replies popped up while I was composing.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,505Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    Aerek said:
    Haven't fought Iocun recently, I suppose, but when I have, I haven't any particular trouble getting around his parrying. Had plenty of trouble with other things, mind you, but not with his parrying.
    Hrm, I'll have to check what kind of parrying I used when we last fought, but chances are I actually parried statically. I stopped using my full parry system against knights quite long ago. But yeah, if I did use it, chances are it didn't work extremely well. It only tends to work optimally late into rather extended fights, or when fighting repeatedly.
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,214Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Heh, the only way I can even rep Iocun is by curare axe, so I don't eben notice the parrying
    image
  • TanrisTanris Posts: 683Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Don't underestimate the ability to focus lock as a substitute for truelocks, particularly as runewarden (faster).
    Essentially you'll break leg delph delph for prone, break arms with venoms to stick asthma (kalmia/curare x 2 would probably be sufficient for you to outpace herb bal), break head slickness/anorexia. At this point focus will either catch anorexia or stupidity (which you gained from level 1 head break). If it catches stupidity, they can't cure anorexia for as long as it takes them to recover focus bal, in which time you can stack another 2 focus affs and they can't sip, etc. Its pretty rng heavy because it only will block the anorexia cure 50% of the time, but the concept allows you to consider certain other things hopefully (namely, the ability to stick anorexia and lock down sip for a short amount of time). Full lock is rarely practical or needed.
    TasleusHhaosXithMilitis
  • VaehlVaehl Posts: 962Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2013
    Don't use focusable venoms unless you're doing an advanced strategy, and if so, only during the combo.

    Static parry vs most classes.

    Any specific questions you got?
  • VaehlVaehl Posts: 962Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tanris said:
    Don't underestimate the ability to focus lock as a substitute for truelocks, particularly as runewarden (faster).
    Essentially you'll break leg delph delph for prone, break arms with venoms to stick asthma (kalmia/curare x 2 would probably be sufficient for you to outpace herb bal), break head slickness/anorexia. At this point focus will either catch anorexia or stupidity (which you gained from level 1 head break). If it catches stupidity, they can't cure anorexia for as long as it takes them to recover focus bal, in which time you can stack another 2 focus affs and they can't sip, etc. Its pretty rng heavy because it only will block the anorexia cure 50% of the time, but the concept allows you to consider certain other things hopefully (namely, the ability to stick anorexia and lock down sip for a short amount of time). Full lock is rarely practical or needed.
     If no rebound, can also slightly kelp stack before it (and weariness post focus lock) for gecko/slike if focus procs anorexia, can gecko/slike.
  • TvistorTvistor Posts: 2,883Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I just static parry so I can pay minimal attention while simultaneously appearing to know what I'm doing.
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
    EldSimoln
  • JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2013

    Is this how I should think about parrying - other than when I actually sustain real damage on a limb? 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors 

     

    EDIT:  I mean, do some people manage to randomize it?  And, I just read what someone said about Markov Chains and looked that up, so that sounds like a yes. 

  • AradorArador Posts: 1,693Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Didn't they change it recently so you can not empty pipes beforehand? You can still spamsmoke them empty though.

  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,505Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can't empty them, but can smoke them empty, which I assume most people do (I certainly do).
  • TvistorTvistor Posts: 2,883Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, but it's easy to keep two pipes.
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,505Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    (Just to clarify: I meant deliberately spamsmoke them empty as Arador said, not actually smoke normally until they happen to be empty and then refill.)
  • TasleusTasleus Posts: 84Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Everyone, this is phenomenal info. Thank you @Aerek for the book reply you gave. I know you've been giving me some instruction in the arena, but during this stage of my combat ability (Which is barely more than nil), I need to learn as much as I can. I'm getting real tired of having the arena floor wiped with my butt. 

    Thanks to everyone who answered. I've made notes and studied, now I'm gonna get in there and practice for a bit. I'll be on sparwho shortly!
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  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesPosts: 2,313Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cahin said:
    All of this knight venom stuff is gonna be out the window when they release the new knight weapon system.

    image



    That's what happens when you don't have a pair of rapiers
    image
    TeshaChryenthTasleus
  • AepasAepas Posts: 1,619Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    if you just set your system to do prefarar/curare, repeat DSL on balance, and  then go make a sandwich, you'll be able to kill me just fine. Pro knight status for you Sir
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    Mizik
  • TasleusTasleus Posts: 84Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    That is the best gif I think i've ever seen. What's this new Knight weapon system you're talking about though, @Cahin?
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  • JulesJules Posts: 2,169Member @ - Epic Achaean

    I'm guessing the same one that means it may or may not be a good idea to take advantage of that great sale they're having on soulpiercers (and actually, axes too).  I asked about it not too long ago, and no one seems to know much, but with the new year and all of the big events apparently over for the time being, my understanding is that it should go into effect soon?

    Buka
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