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Leases and Warehousing!

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  • NataliiaNataliia Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 4
    So I'm on both sides of the coin about this. A little more on the 'meh' end than excited, currently, but that may change with better understanding.

    The ugly:
    I'm one of the many who have spent the credits to expand my rift space to capacity via artefacts. Now, essentially what we're being told is that those of us who choose to mine, and who have to pay for the mines themselves with upkeep and such, now also have to pay for storage space of said commodities we just paid to mine.

    With the Achaean playerbase really not liking to make money (as is evidence by how cheap comms are and how fine people are with shooting themselves- and subsequently everyone else- in the foot by pricing too low) this seems like a terrible idea. Unless, of course, people start to charge more to account for the price of warehouse leases.

    To me this seems like another gold sink that really just hurts the people paying to mine. Especially those of us who don't generally mine to resell the comms, but to have them at a cheaper rate than the comm market. Like Melodie, I generally mine to expand on my house, and @Israyhl generally mines to have comms for enchanting.

    The good:
    I'm all for something that helps the overall lag of the game, and I like the idea behind having storage. Just not at exorbitant prices.


    At the end of the day I'd rather there just be a level 3 vault option that boosts how much I can store in my personal rift. This goes beyond just comms too, because I try to keep a surplus of herbs/minerals so that I can keep up my shops and sell in bulk when people ask. That requires me to try to keep over 10k of each as often as I can. Would much rather a permanent option to have more rift with one credit purchase than having to drop gold nonstop when the floor of my house is free and works just fine.
  • LaodokeLaodoke Posts: 8Member
    Would be happier in compensation if mining daily upkeep costs were cut in half and amount of comms per mine needed to build were lessened so it doesn’t feel like here just pay this extra fee. Can something done to level it out? Cause mining is pretty expensive to begin with. 
    Laedha
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,472Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Does this mean UW is coming back?
    TiamatPrythe
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,846Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    Does this mean UW is coming back?
    it's already back, in pog form!

    Image result for in pog form


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    TelendriethTiamatXiasRangor
  • MauxMaux Posts: 13Member
    I think this is a great idea!
  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 479Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Well hopefully it’ll be worth it. All I can think of now is that we’ll have to be paying for storage space for items that aren’t really worth all the trouble of collecting to begin with. Ultimately making the transmutation/gathering skills even less valuable. 

    There’s a thin line you have to walk on for economic purposes, all while maintaining a system appeasing enough to be found worth effort. Honestly, the direction we’re heading now is kinda making it all too much hassle for very little payoff.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,674Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 4
    Ismay said:
    Well hopefully it’ll be worth it. All I can think of now is that we’ll have to be paying for storage space for items that aren’t really worth all the trouble of collecting to begin with. Ultimately making the transmutation/gathering skills even less valuable. 

    There’s a thin line you have to walk on for economic purposes, all while maintaining a system appeasing enough to be found worth effort. Honestly, the direction we’re heading now is kinda making it all too much hassle for very little payoff.
    If you think they aren’t worth getting, then you must really play a different game than the rest of us. They’re very useful, to cities and players alike.

    This is a no brainer, that should have been done well before now. I’m hoping for decay times on all riftables not stored in rift or warehouse.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    MauxPuxi
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,734Administrator Achaean staff
    I am curious which comms in particular people find they make little to no profit off of. I know which comms I think those are, but am curious to see if my information lines up with the messy reality.
  • MauxMaux Posts: 13Member
    Ismay said:
    Well hopefully it’ll be worth it. All I can think of now is that we’ll have to be paying for storage space for items that aren’t really worth all the trouble of collecting to begin with. Ultimately making the transmutation/gathering skills even less valuable. 

    There’s a thin line you have to walk on for economic purposes, all while maintaining a system appeasing enough to be found worth effort. Honestly, the direction we’re heading now is kinda making it all too much hassle for very little payoff.
    It's boring as is though, we need warehouses and bandits that come rob warehouses. Also i think you should be required to ship your junk to the warehouse via a covered wagon that has a higher chance of being hit by said bandits the higher value the cargo is.
  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 479Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Atalkez said:
    Ismay said:
    Well hopefully it’ll be worth it. All I can think of now is that we’ll have to be paying for storage space for items that aren’t really worth all the trouble of collecting to begin with. Ultimately making the transmutation/gathering skills even less valuable. 

    There’s a thin line you have to walk on for economic purposes, all while maintaining a system appeasing enough to be found worth effort. Honestly, the direction we’re heading now is kinda making it all too much hassle for very little payoff.
    If you think they aren’t worth getting, then you must really play a different game than the rest of us. They’re very useful, to cities and players alike.

    This is a no brainer, that should have been done well before now. I’m hoping for decay times on all riftables not stored in rift or warehouse.


    Sure they’re useful for those of you who don’t actually have to go out and do all the work to keep everyone supplied. Do you think we should do it for nothing now? 

    Keep making trade skills and mining mining less profitable and you’re going to end up with gatherers who only gather for their own needs. Then maybe the scarcity of supplies will wake some of you up.
    Rackham
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,472Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's been said and proven that the mineral changes make minerals MORE profitable.. so not sure why you're complaing
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The idea that this makes x less profitable isn't really logical. There will be a baseline increase in cost across the board, requiring a baseline increase in price across the board. That's just how economics work. If you pay x/com/month on a specific commodity, then increase your cost by that much plus some for hassle. The real problem here is that people can't do math and are just selling everything at a loss on a constant basis. There's no real mechanic to override stupidity.

    Also, the concerns about the taxper, that number listed is entirely outrageous. It would be -far- lower than that in reality or else no one would go to that specific city. There is 0 cost to the cities for the warehouses so anything > 1 gp/month is nothing but pure profit. There'd be no reason for outrageous taxper amounts, other than to be a selfish prick.
  • NataliiaNataliia Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ismay said:
    Atalkez said:
    Ismay said:
    Well hopefully it’ll be worth it. All I can think of now is that we’ll have to be paying for storage space for items that aren’t really worth all the trouble of collecting to begin with. Ultimately making the transmutation/gathering skills even less valuable. 

    There’s a thin line you have to walk on for economic purposes, all while maintaining a system appeasing enough to be found worth effort. Honestly, the direction we’re heading now is kinda making it all too much hassle for very little payoff.
    If you think they aren’t worth getting, then you must really play a different game than the rest of us. They’re very useful, to cities and players alike.

    This is a no brainer, that should have been done well before now. I’m hoping for decay times on all riftables not stored in rift or warehouse.


    Sure they’re useful for those of you who don’t actually have to go out and do all the work to keep everyone supplied. Do you think we should do it for nothing now? 

    Keep making trade skills and mining mining less profitable and you’re going to end up with gatherers who only gather for their own needs. Then maybe the scarcity of supplies will wake some of you up.
    Decay times on all riftables will inevitably get me to stop harvesting/extracting anything over filling mine and Isra's rifts, or not keeping my shop(s) stocked as steadily. So yup.
    Ismay
  • VeldrinVeldrin DenmarkPosts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Simply because it costs gold to have a warehouse means I'm much more likely not to use it unless we're getting screwed by commodities getting a decay time, which would just seem like a forced way to make us use this system (and more likely to use a shop stockroom). It also looks rather unwieldy and I dislike the fact that, if I'm unable to log in for a week and something happened (like running out of gold) they just get my commodities. Can the trade department change the tax as they want?

    Can I use the warehouse deposit/withdraw commands from anywhere or do I need to be at a specific location? It looks from the help that it can be done from anywhere, but it doesn't specifically say it, and when looking at the bank system it would be more intuitive to believe you need to be at a specific location.

    It looks like this system largely favors organisations and not the individual player, which is yet another reason not to bother with it. Heck why can't a warehouse be a housing upgrade as well?
    image
    NataliiaLennCaelan
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,674Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ismay said:
    Atalkez said:
    Ismay said:
    Well hopefully it’ll be worth it. All I can think of now is that we’ll have to be paying for storage space for items that aren’t really worth all the trouble of collecting to begin with. Ultimately making the transmutation/gathering skills even less valuable. 

    There’s a thin line you have to walk on for economic purposes, all while maintaining a system appeasing enough to be found worth effort. Honestly, the direction we’re heading now is kinda making it all too much hassle for very little payoff.
    If you think they aren’t worth getting, then you must really play a different game than the rest of us. They’re very useful, to cities and players alike.

    This is a no brainer, that should have been done well before now. I’m hoping for decay times on all riftables not stored in rift or warehouse.


    Sure they’re useful for those of you who don’t actually have to go out and do all the work to keep everyone supplied. Do you think we should do it for nothing now? 

    Keep making trade skills and mining mining less profitable and you’re going to end up with gatherers who only gather for their own needs. Then maybe the scarcity of supplies will wake some of you up.
    No, you should make gold for being an integral part of the economy. Mineral changes were in your favor as an extractor, not mine as a buyer. I’m fine with the higher prices.

    Mining is profitable, mostly. Some of the less-used commodities aren’t as profitable, but they can be. Intelligent mine size usage and commodity sniping is required though. Every commodity isn’t going to be profitable 100% of the time. The problem is no one is okay with playing the long game. Everyone wants their gold as soon as the commodities hit their inventory. That becomes a race to the bottom. 


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    You can't change the tax rate, only the taxper. 
  • MauxMaux Posts: 13Member
    Veldrin said:
    Simply because it costs gold to have a warehouse means I'm much more likely not to use it unless we're getting screwed by commodities getting a decay time, which would just seem like a forced way to make us use this system (and more likely to use a shop stockroom). It also looks rather unwieldy and I dislike the fact that, if I'm unable to log in for a week and something happened (like running out of gold) they just get my commodities. Can the trade department change the tax as they want?

    Can I use the warehouse deposit/withdraw commands from anywhere or do I need to be at a specific location? It looks from the help that it can be done from anywhere, but it doesn't specifically say it, and when looking at the bank system it would be more intuitive to believe you need to be at a specific location.

    It looks like this system largely favors organisations and not the individual player, which is yet another reason not to bother with it. Heck why can't a warehouse be a housing upgrade as well?
    Hmm, favoring group in a multiplayer game. How bizarre. The nerve these guys have... doesn't Makarios know this is a single player game!?
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,846Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    It's been said and proven that the mineral changes make minerals MORE profitable.. so not sure why you're complaing
    I can still make more gold off hunting and shifting dragontalisman pieces, but then again, I could probably squeeze extracting up if I scripted a smart mapper to do it for me while I played other games in the meantime. 


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    Nataliia
  • MauxMaux Posts: 13Member
    Minifie said:
    Aegoth said:
    It's been said and proven that the mineral changes make minerals MORE profitable.. so not sure why you're complaing
    I can still make more gold off hunting and shifting dragontalisman pieces, but then again, I could probably squeeze extracting up if I scripted a smart mapper to do it for me while I played other games in the meantime. 
    aaaand you're a shrub. Profit!
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 4
    Maux said:
    Veldrin said:
    Simply because it costs gold to have a warehouse means I'm much more likely not to use it unless we're getting screwed by commodities getting a decay time, which would just seem like a forced way to make us use this system (and more likely to use a shop stockroom). It also looks rather unwieldy and I dislike the fact that, if I'm unable to log in for a week and something happened (like running out of gold) they just get my commodities. Can the trade department change the tax as they want?

    Can I use the warehouse deposit/withdraw commands from anywhere or do I need to be at a specific location? It looks from the help that it can be done from anywhere, but it doesn't specifically say it, and when looking at the bank system it would be more intuitive to believe you need to be at a specific location.

    It looks like this system largely favors organisations and not the individual player, which is yet another reason not to bother with it. Heck why can't a warehouse be a housing upgrade as well?
    Hmm, favoring group in a multiplayer game. How bizarre. The nerve these guys have... doesn't Makarios know this is a single player game!?
    What he's saying is that this system, as it currently exists, is really just a tax that is being forced upon individuals with absolutely zero loss or potential loss for the organizations. There is no cost to the orgs to have warehouses. Worst case scenario, no one gets a lease. They gain 0, lose 0. Best case scenario, everyone defaults. They get all your stuff. Middle case, you hand them gold every month for an automated system. All of the risk is on the players, the orgs cannot possibly lose a single gold penny.

    Another way, to make it more balanced at least, would be imposing the 10% tax on warehouses irrelevant to when the leaser pays taxes. So for every warehouse x city must pay y gold. That way there is potential for loss on either side, versus just a virtual money grab from each organization. Then again that's a logistical nightmare for the trade ministry, so Iunno.
    Siduri
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,846Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 4
    Maux said:
    Minifie said:
    Aegoth said:
    It's been said and proven that the mineral changes make minerals MORE profitable.. so not sure why you're complaing
    I can still make more gold off hunting and shifting dragontalisman pieces, but then again, I could probably squeeze extracting up if I scripted a smart mapper to do it for me while I played other games in the meantime. 
    aaaand you're a shrub. Profit!
    if I do anything like that I'd still 100% be behind the keyboard and reactive. More that I have it doing the boring "move to next room" part for me while I play something on an emulator as well. 


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    Nataliia
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,734Administrator Achaean staff
    Currently the warehousing room for each city is the city comm shop. We have a post to the cityleaders giving them the option to discuss changing that if desired.
  • NataliiaNataliia Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Makarios said:
    I am curious which comms in particular people find they make little to no profit off of. I know which comms I think those are, but am curious to see if my information lines up with the messy reality.
    Iron. Iron lodes take forever to mine, and they're priced between 20-40 gold per for refined generally. It was a super stellar idea to use iron for mine creation instead of wood, but it still isn't anywhere near worth what stone is since stone is still used in both housing/mines. If stone/iron costs were reversed though, so that the mine took 550 iron, and 230 stone (as a shared comm) iron would inevitably go up in price and given that stone is still used for housing it probably wouldn't really change much price wise.

    Coal. It's so super fast to mine, and even with it being the primary resource to refine raw comms it doesn't sell for hardly anything. Not to mention there isn't much of a difference between the sale of raw comms and refined comms.

    I want to venture out and say bone and gold considering that they're more rare to find, and a longer tick.
    PrytheSiduri
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,779Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:
    I am curious which comms in particular people find they make little to no profit off of. I know which comms I think those are, but am curious to see if my information lines up with the messy reality.
    @Proficy Bruh we need your numbers. 
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
  • NataliiaNataliia Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Veldrin said:
    Simply because it costs gold to have a warehouse means I'm much more likely not to use it unless we're getting screwed by commodities getting a decay time, which would just seem like a forced way to make us use this system (and more likely to use a shop stockroom). It also looks rather unwieldy and I dislike the fact that, if I'm unable to log in for a week and something happened (like running out of gold) they just get my commodities. Can the trade department change the tax as they want?

    Can I use the warehouse deposit/withdraw commands from anywhere or do I need to be at a specific location? It looks from the help that it can be done from anywhere, but it doesn't specifically say it, and when looking at the bank system it would be more intuitive to believe you need to be at a specific location.

    It looks like this system largely favors organisations and not the individual player, which is yet another reason not to bother with it. Heck why can't a warehouse be a housing upgrade as well?
    So much this.
    Prythe
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Is there a taxper maximum in place currently, or will there be one if not?
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,709Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The argument that there is a long game to be played in the comms market seems flawed to me. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because I barely touch the comms market nowadays.

    The only thing that steadily uses up an assortment of mining commodities with any regularity are city improvements and enchantments. City improvements in particular consume a large quantity of comms in bulk for the initial building, after which it requires a comparitively nominal amount for upkeep. This required amount is (for the most part) easily managed by a city so long as they're proactive and aggressive in their mining.

    In the mean time, though, people will continue to prospect and mine, gradually accruing commodities to the point where we reach today where there's a whole bunch of comms just sitting in someone's basement; unwanted, unsold, and unused. 

    It seems to be less an issue of 'am I turning a profit' and more 'can anybody find me someone to love just buy this shit off me?'

    Of course you can just stick on the comms market and pray to Jesus, but really, just looking at the amount of comms sitting on the market alone suggests that those comms are gonna continue sitting there for a very long time.


    Shirszae
  • IsrayhlIsrayhl Posts: 173Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 4
    GIVE US SHOP RIFTS AND CRAFTING SHELVES

    - Would serve as warehouse in extra storage
    - Would feed directly into the existing systems with shops
    - Could put a high cost on them (like tuns) or even credit
    - Would allow shopkeepers to stock their designs without adding MORE items into the room (serving both purposes of cleaning up comms and the lag)
    - Would be a gold sink if you did gold, cause EVERY SHOPKEEPER WOULD HAVE THEM

    SHOP RIFTS. CRAFTING SHELVES. SHOP LOG (maybe). 

    SHOP RIFTS. CRAFTING SHELVES. SHOP LOGS.

    THE PEOPLE DEMAND

    Edit: Could even extend the system to include herbs in the shop rift, removing even MORE items. As many comms as the Warehouse may remove, I imagine just as many (if not more) would be removed by allowing shop keepers access to a rift in their stockrooms. 
    NataliiaTruaxSiduri
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,991Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think the general playerbase has a high demand for gating new systems behind already limited shops that cost tens of millions of gold.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

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