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Village Contracts

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  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,328Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Veldrin said:
    Sometimes it's about winding off from a day at work and that means just mindlessly bashing to relax. Because it's dull, because it's predictable, because you don't have to be on your toes all the freaking time.
    I'm not really looking to take that away, because that's something I like to do to (in case anyone hasn't noticed....)

    There are plenty of other places to bash that aren't villages, and I'd be totally behind adding a whole lot more as well. Especially on the high end, we could really use more places that are on the same level as say, Sirocco or Prin, but are animals only.  Yggdrasil actually has a couple, but getting there is too much of a pain for how small the bashing areas there are.

    I'd even agree with making village contracts a system predicated on the addition of non-village bashing areas as well.
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,334Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minifie said:
    Torinn said:
    Achaea is a game about roleplaying your character.  It's about making and telling stories.  That is the game, you can hunt or PvP all you want but it is story driven.  To have villages not do anything after being the victim of genocide completely ruins the immersion because it means those npcs that you're supposed to think of and look at as other people clearly are not.
    I just commited genocide... which one that is left is going to hire/take revenge? They are all dead!
    The language tutor
    AntidasKietRekhyrSherazad
  • CadanCadan Posts: 15Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Torinn said:
    https://www.achaea.com - right at the top, guys and gals, first thing is immersion.  It's not just me, so stop being so hostile.  Nobody is trying to take anything away, just trying to enhance this game's selling point. 
    Immersion would also be the inability to eat magnesium or bloodroot while paralysed, because it's really hard to take something out of a rift and eat it when you can't move. But the game mechanics demand it's okay to remove a curative from the rift when paralysed but not while your arms are broken, so immersion takes a back seat. That's what happens when core mechanics are too important to let immersion run rampant. Every game is like this.

    And I'd disagree with whether this would "enhance this game's selling point". I'll say it again - bashing is a core mechanic of the game. It's central to your character. You can have niche characters who only gain experience via non-violent methods, people have in the past, but that's like the guy in WoW who only levels by using harvest points and never leaving the Pandaren start point - quirky, yet far outside normal function of the game. You can't do combat without hunting up to a decent level. A lot of the interesting content can only be done with a sufficiently high level. Hell, outside of a House, you can't even access all your skills without bashing some. Beyond nearly everything else, excepting for a character who never levels, never uses their skills, and exists solely as a social creature, bashing is the single most important and core piece of this game. And you want to make it punishing for people to have to do it.

    Any new person who picks up the game and says "so I have to bash, but I'm going to get punished for doing so?" is not going to stay long.


    As others have said, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if we had a bunch of new areas. But we'd need areas all along the level scale that this system would not apply to, almost to the point that you'd have to add an equal number of denizens and experience (and possibly gold) that already exist, before such a system would be acceptable.
    FengrichKayeilIsmayZbaco
  • VeldrinVeldrin DenmarkPosts: 380Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Penwize said:
    Veldrin said:
    Sometimes it's about winding off from a day at work and that means just mindlessly bashing to relax. Because it's dull, because it's predictable, because you don't have to be on your toes all the freaking time.
    I'm not really looking to take that away, because that's something I like to do to (in case anyone hasn't noticed....)

    There are plenty of other places to bash that aren't villages, and I'd be totally behind adding a whole lot more as well. Especially on the high end, we could really use more places that are on the same level as say, Sirocco or Prin, but are animals only.  Yggdrasil actually has a couple, but getting there is too much of a pain for how small the bashing areas there are.

    I'd even agree with making village contracts a system predicated on the addition of non-village bashing areas as well.
    You could in theory make some large bloody warning signals that now the 'elite defenders of x is roaming the area, looking for <player>', the player could either fight them off and keep going or have to withdraw for half an hour or however long they'd be searching the local area. But they shouldn't be hunting down the player if they left the area before getting found, while annoying the player would just have to treat it like the area is already bashed out until they stopped roaming. 

    And it shouldn't be in small villages but more larger denizen cities where they already have some security forces/military. It makes no sense for the elites of Shastaan to come hunting for people because well, there is no bloody elites in that area (Maybe if they were allied to a player city they could have some denizen elites of that city go searching, allied villages would be protected!). And the elites should fit to the areas strength wise so they could be slightly stronger than the rest, enough to give those who are level appropriate a challenge when fighting there. But if you over level it you over level it, and it makes no bloody difference for the Dragon that some slightly bigger morsels came out. Have the elites give more xp/drops if you're level appropriate and nada if you over level it (No reason for Dragons to farm elites of a lower level area then).
    image
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 745Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 17
    It's not even punishment.  It is consequences for your actions.  A new targossian asks where he can hunt and we say "you can hunt blackrock but be careful.. the dwarves won't take kindly to being killed and may seek retribution..". The player then gets to decide if it's worth the risk or not.  Me, being hard line anti-evil would say "heck yeah let's do it come what may" and I know many others would too, even those who focus on hunting.  It'd be interesting, engaging, and immersive.  It would align with something actual living breathing people would do.  It makes sense.  If you're too afraid then don't go there, simple as.  More areas can be added for people who are too scared to experience it.  It's not hard nor difficult.  Risk vs. reward.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • CadanCadan Posts: 15Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I'll go ahead and say this, because I've been fairly negative - it's not an idea to throw out entirely.

    The problem, as I said, is that it cannot be applied to areas where people will be leveling up to Dragon. A system like this should be reserved for areas where you wouldn't be hunting if you weren't a Dragon already (say, Istarion, Sirocco, etc). At that point, a death doesn't sting as much. I'm still against the Mark idea - keep PvE and PvP separated as much as possible, please. But a dangerous entity that may even stalk you outside of that area for a period of a few months in revenge? Sure, why not? Just keep it to the people who aren't going to really feel the loss - Dragons.

    If you can come up with a fun way for this for smaller places, so where it's not punishing but instead challenging (there's a difference!), it could even work in lower level areas. The problem is saying "something so big it'll kill you if you're alone comes after you, and even if you kill it somehow, lolmark". That's bad - it's not fun, and actively dissuades against hunting and the leveling process in general. But there is definitely room to refine the idea into something fun, challenging, and possibly rewarding (doesn't have to be, though).

    If we can move this thread more in that direction, I think it'll be more productive than saying "my way only!" and have a better chance at the admin adopting the idea. I'm all for better immersion, I just want it to be fun immersion.
    TorinnCailin
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,259Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 18
    Atalkez said:
    Nazihk said:
    Atalkez said:
    Like I suggested, having it be a progressively harder denizen themed for the area would be awesome. Only when you’ve defeated their entire champion list, and continued to kill them, would a mark get generated.

    That seems to be a fair twist to the system, imo. It would be awesome to have Oberion come down to kick my ass for killing so many of his people.
    "Your reward for excelling in all of these PvE challenges is that Dunn murders you because you're shit at fighting serpents" is a shitty design.

    If the primary goal is just to make it feel like depopulating villages has consequences, it would be better just to keep scaling their denizen attackers up.
    Well that’s why I mentioned the big hitters like Oberion. You’re not surviving that encounter, but if you did, he would just hire an adventurer.
    Something is wrong here. Adventurer easier to kill than Oberion. -gasp-

    I like @Atalkez idea on having assassin tiers. 

    I also think not all areas should have this mechanic simply because we have to suit demographic of people hunting there. I also think some areas like Annwyn can have tougher assassin while places like moghedu should not be too tough. 

    I also think the denizens assassin should actually be killable with some work. It is ridiculous to face stuffs like dreadpillar. I don't need autodie to remind me I have killed x number of them. 

    I still have reservation about marks involved in this cos even though I am a mark I will hate picking up a contract just because someone enjoyed hunting a place. I also hate it if someone's going to use a contract to disturb my hunting eventho I am competent to face that contract. 

    Personally I think don't touch the old areas with this change. I am fine with future new areas having this mechanism. 
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,146Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I really liked the idea of buffing xp to account for an expected death. 

    As a mark, I'm not too sure about full blown contracts and the 30 days of fear associated with it, and I can respect people bucking on this. I would rather see a village denizen spaz out noticeably and personally ask a random mark to stop the incursion(maybe mention that mark head directed them to you).  This limits the time and area window, while giving a lot of leeway to people being able to nope out if they like.  If the mark completes: give them credit, if they don't: too bad better luck next time(no rank loss), if basher kills mark: yayfreexp. 
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 408Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Well, no one's said it's all areas that'd get this, so if you're that worried, avoid areas that do, just like you'd avoid Annwyn?

    Also, a single death, while annoying, really isn't that bad. It provides an opportunity to interact and stick it to the man: 'let's stick it to Ashtan and murder Therans until the <whatever> shows up and we can murder it!' For example.

    If they add spots where you can afk-bash, what's the problem? Risk for people who want it, safety for people who don't. 

    The people who've posted about this 'ending Achaea' really need to take a step back, because no one's suggested this be made the norm for every single area.

    Ultimately, Achaea is a game that revolves around taking opportunities and running with them. If you're the kind of person who wants to make something out of some big monster coming to kick your ass, great! If you're not, then stick to a safe spot.

    I don't agree with adding exclusively dragon-level, end-game content either. I think it'd be much better to implement areas like this across the spectrum so that you don't have to have already bashed a ton to participate, personally. 
    PenwizeTaryiusKeorin
  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 342Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 19
    What if there was a PvE version of Infamy?

    Clearly sentient denizen kills would impact that more.

    Maybe a couple of denizens that could black-market haggle down your level of PvE-Infamy with gold (whaddup gold sink).

    What about factional swings? What if your repeated bashing of Village Y leads to a high PvE-Infamy but when you visit Village X (sworn enemies of Village Y), the villagers cheer you like a hero (but then you mow them down as well).

    edit: sorry, forgot the actual implementation: a high level of PvE Infamy could cause denizens to hit you harder, have access to special abilities (but also give better experience, maybe). plus/minus special access to bashing areas for PvE-Infamous. plus/minus this system only being active for Level 94+.

    sorry just spitballing

    plus/minus weekly random item (mayan crown, low level talisman piece, delosian eagle) for being the #1 PvE-Infamous.
    Proof of Concepts: LogrSailing MapTrading
    Simple Nexus things: jqol
    "It's not rocket surgery."

    Cailin
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,510Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Tysandr said:
    What if there was a PvE version of Infamy?

    Clearly sentient denizen kills would impact that more.

    Maybe a couple of denizens that could black-market haggle down your level of PvE-Infamy with gold (whaddup gold sink).

    What about factional swings? What if your repeated bashing of Village Y leads to a high PvE-Infamy but when you visit Village X (sworn enemies of Village Y), the villagers cheer you like a hero (but then you mow them down as well).

    edit: sorry, forgot the actual implementation: a high level of PvE Infamy could cause denizens to hit you harder, have access to special abilities (but also give better experience, maybe). plus/minus special access to bashing areas for PvE-Infamous. plus/minus this system only being active for Level 94+.

    sorry just spitballing

    plus/minus weekly random item (mayan crown, low level talisman piece, delosian eagle) for being the #1 PvE-Infamous.
    PvE infamy where  bashing lots of sentients lead you to be "less liked" around many other villages and distrusted would be pretty damn cool. Word of mouth spreads, they start to fear you, so if you are immensely PvE infamous then smaller villages may give you discounts and tremble in fear with you visiting just for the first time, while bigger places have chances to call for help moving mobs from nearby rooms to them, and granting more XP after they CFH. Could be a good system to make bashing be a little more engaging!
    TorinnShirszae
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 484Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Assuming experience gain was raised to at least account for the death, or even to give more experience, then why would it be a punishment? It feels like people are fixating being very fixated on taking a single death to a player, regardless of the actual experience or gold outcome.

    And I really am trying to understand here, how many sentient areas on average is a hunter going to hit between 80 and dragon? I don't have a good feel for it, since I've almost solely stuck to non-sentients as is.
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 708Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 20
     Ulsyndar, Sirroco Fortress, Dun Fortress, Istarion, both Courts in Annwyn, Moghedu, Arcadia, Quartz Peak, Battlesite of Mourning Pass. The only non-sentient areas I bashed were Mirror Caves, Grukai, and some in Azdun.

    Also, let's not kid ourselves. The moment this gets added in, there will be people camping the areas and then killing hunters like clockwork the moment they hit the contract threshold. It won't be a single death -- it would make it so that hunting the sentient (read: good) areas will be a PvPers-only affair, especially if experience gain won't be bumped up vastly to compensate.
     <3 
    ShirszaeKayeilZbaco
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 484Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    So again, limit the implementation so that it makes sense. Groups in Meropis probably aren't about to trek to Sapience just to hire an Assassin. Istarion is too isolationist, and the Faerie courts are off plane.

    And it'd be easy to be smart about how contracts are generated, too. Only at a certain threshold, and then give a timer before another can be generated, and a timer before the contract is actually created (so that you aren't interrupted by a contract the moment you hit a threshold).

    Honestly, it feels like a lot of the criticism to this idea goes something like "assuming it was implemented in a bad way, it would be bad." Yes, there's a ton of ways that something like this could be done where it's awful, but that's not really engaging with the idea itself. I don't think anyone who's posted in support of the idea would say it would be a good idea to effect every sentient area, or for there to be no reward to balance out the death, or for the system to spam you with contracts if you kept hunting.
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 708Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 20
    That said, I have had an idea: village raids.

    Let's say Moghedu, having been repeatedly hunted by Targossas, finally snaps and declares a temporary state of formal hostility against the city. For the duration of this period, those city's guards cannot be relocated since they have to remain at their given post to watch for any mhun incursions.

    Mechanics-wise, every citizen that kills a sentient denizen would add to a counter for that city in that particular area. When the threshold (let's say 10k) is reached, the village 'raids' the city and distracts the guards in such a way that they can't be moved for a period (maybe 12 IG days or 1 whole IG month?). This allows other cities to also raid and not have to worry about guards being called on top of them. Hello, conflict.

    To compensate somewhat, maybe citizens get a small experience boost during the village raid period, as well. Village raids will be shouted by whoever their leader is or something so that others know they can raid sans guard movement, and again when the village raid period ends. Thematically, maybe you can even randomly spawn denizens of the village inside the city much like rats.

    Note, the 10k threshold could be changed. I hunt around 500 things on a casual day, so I based it off that. The idea is that village raids happen noticeably, but not all the time.


     <3 
    KeorinZbaco
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 891Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Or, how about like has been said many times.
    Not having players kill the avid hunters, but have stronger and stronger assassins from the sentient hunting areas sent to kill them.


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
    CailinZbaco
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,510Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Keorin said:
    Assuming experience gain was raised to at least account for the death, or even to give more experience, then why would it be a punishment? It feels like people are fixating being very fixated on taking a single death to a player, regardless of the actual experience or gold outcome.

    And I really am trying to understand here, how many sentient areas on average is a hunter going to hit between 80 and dragon? I don't have a good feel for it, since I've almost solely stuck to non-sentients as is.
    If you aren't understanding it the problem isn't on our end. It's been made pretty clear why the idea itself is incredibly awful.
    Kayeil
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,530Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Someone brought up a good idea earlier, in that you could 'pay off' your village infamy. I'm not sold on the village infamy part, but paying someone off to avoid getting contracts seems like a nice idea in general. It's an extra gold sink and lets the people who ABSOLUTELY can't stand PK (or the denizen assassins, w/e) never have to deal with it.

    Penwize
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 408Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    For the record, you couldn't 'camp' an area, since you have to go to the Den or the Tower to get a contract, as well, btw. But, yes, someone could sit on it to claim the contracts.

    I like the idea of bribing villages to leave you alone!
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,510Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I'm down for villages doing anything against me for constantly smashing their faces in that involves the village itself (or villages in a group effort). Marks tend to be nothing more than a vessel of the target, krui hiring a mark just means I'll slap krui an absolute tonne more. Having villages be more alert, group harder against you, not sell to you, attack you the instant they see you, even so much as to have normal denizens go beefcake at you (A xorani guardian goes into an unbridled bloodthirst, his hatred for you knowing no bounds) would be awesome. 
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,969Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How about if you're opposed to genocide,you don't  murder villagers and if you don't care you keep doing it because you're their nightmare come to visit.
    image
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 311Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kiet said:
    Someone brought up a good idea earlier, in that you could 'pay off' your village infamy. I'm not sold on the village infamy part, but paying someone off to avoid getting contracts seems like a nice idea in general. It's an extra gold sink and lets the people who ABSOLUTELY can't stand PK (or the denizen assassins, w/e) never have to deal with it.

    Yeah, introducing systems and letting people pay to get out of them usually means it is a bad system.
    ZbacoKayeil
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,530Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    Kiet said:
    Someone brought up a good idea earlier, in that you could 'pay off' your village infamy. I'm not sold on the village infamy part, but paying someone off to avoid getting contracts seems like a nice idea in general. It's an extra gold sink and lets the people who ABSOLUTELY can't stand PK (or the denizen assassins, w/e) never have to deal with it.

    Yeah, introducing systems and letting people pay to get out of them usually means it is a bad system.
    Nah. If nothing else, it drains gold from the economy! Look at the bright side.
  • CailinCailin Posts: 107Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Lets just ignore the concept of player contracts, shall we? I think most people already agreed that it would be a bad idea.

    I'm not sure that trying to make denizens "people" to everyone isn't already a lost cause. The game was designed for players to need to bash massive numbers of denizens. And when villages forget that you killed them in a matter of months, it certainly makes them seem like not-people. If you killed another player, he'd probably remember it for Achaean decades. But as it is, you can just wait for Feelings Villages to drop a little and then Joe the Villager still wants you to fix his spear for him. Denizens will even accept quest items and kindly say "Thank you so much!" while simultaneously angrily attacking you.

    Perhaps if villages enemied you... refused to sell to you while you were enemied, and were constantly at "disgust"  towards you - snarling and refusing to have anything to do with you, including quests and stuff- I don't think they should be permanently aggro, that would be annoying. You could pay a minor fine (I don't like the idea of a gold sink, I hunt for gold as well as xp*) to get unenemied, or you could just be like "pssh I didn't want to buy your fur blanket or fix your spear anyway, muahahahaha." It would make them seem a LITTLE more real. But perhaps that's a little too complicated to implement, I don't have any idea what is doable.

    And as far as "it's just one death", deaths hurt a LOT for me right now at about level 80. It takes hours of bashing to recover one death, and I don't have hours of extra time. Of course, I don't hunt sentient denizens, either, but if I did, I would not want the "denizen assassin" system to be too hurty. As long as one could rotate areas often enough, and there were plenty of good areas to hunt, it would be all right. This is more about flavor, and RP, than it is about mechanics, I think. I like Atalkez' tier idea.



    * and this is not something I would ENJOY sinking my gold into... gold sinks should be enjoyable, I think, like ships or mining. A rare mineral costs a lot, but it has an enjoyable reward. Having to pay to hunt stinks.
    Ismay
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 886Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Someone brought up a good idea earlier, in that you could 'pay off' your village infamy. I'm not sold on the village infamy part, but paying someone off to avoid getting contracts seems like a nice idea in general. It's an extra gold sink and lets the people who ABSOLUTELY can't stand PK (or the denizen assassins, w/e) never have to deal with it.

    The problem with this is that lots of people generally bash to get gold, and if I have to use my bashing gold to pay off my village bounty, then wtf was the point of bashing? 

    Honestly, I feel like it is impossible to properly address the  "villages feel like meaningless bashing zones instead of villages full of actual people" problem until they make enough non-sentient bashing areas to give people competitive options across the level ranges. 

    Once there are enough competitive alternatives for areas like Qurnok/Moghedu/Arcadia/Istarion/etc, you can start adding penalties/dangers/etc for bashing villages. Without those alternatives in place, you can't really do that because bashing is too central to the game to mess around with it and add penalties for it for something as meaningless as trying to make people value Moghedu denizens as people after more than a decade of seeing them as a bashing area.
    TysandrIsmayKayeilKiet
  • AlrenaAlrena Posts: 622Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Maybe achieving Hatred with an npc village should either take a lot longer to decay naturally, or have an option to pay off the fine to make it go faster. Hatred should then make a village stop selling to you, no longer give quests, etc... If you don't care about this faction anyway, then it doesn't matter if you're hatred. But if you bash orcs to sell them to dwarves and then kill the dwarves to sell them to the orcs, that'd be more of a problem! It wouldn't magically fix the "denizen aren't people unless they say something new" thing, but it's a small step, maybe.
    image
    FarrahKiet
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,259Member @ - Epic Achaean
    You guys are making denizens to need AI...
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,306Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Denizens already have AI.

    AntidasTahquil
  • CailinCailin Posts: 107Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Dochitha said:
    You guys are making denizens to need AI...

    I did say, caveat: I don't know how hard this would be to implement. I'm just throwing ideas out there, other people can tell me if they're viable or not.

    I'm also trying to point out how difficult it would be to make denizens "people" due to the fact that they've been xp/gold fodder for yeeeears. If someone doesn't care about the RP side of it, they're not likely to start caring, I think.
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,969Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Having someone put an AI in an npc body would be awesome. Like when Microsoft made a Skype ai to learn from conversations and talk to people.
    image
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