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Fixing Player Housing

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  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 2,972Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Solnir said:
    Shirszae said:
    Solnir said:
    I don't "ship", but how do you shippers feel about this?
    Make ships safe out to sea, but in area if in harbour. Move one room out, don't be 100% afk, and you'll be fine?
    No. This was already tried and it sucked so it got reversed. 
    I wasn't around for that, so I didn't know. How did it "suck", though? That's very ambiguous.
    The problem with ship being made in-area to harbour is that it'd swing things too far from one side to the other. One of the reason people dislike using housing is because of the blatant ease which with people can spy on you, specially monks, combined with the annoying persistence some people can have regarding trying to prism in, basically ruining whatever you might be trying to do because they just wont give it a stop. Its also the only place you can meet with people you might not otherwise be allowed to talk to, and I do feel that is worth preserving.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • SobriquetSobriquet Posts: 1,951Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ismay said:
    Sorry, but just no to the ship part. Veils and gems are gone. We have no other way to have any private time at all (and no, not for mudsex related activities). While I think interaction is important in these games, I also strongly feel that privacy is just as important. Keep on this road, and we'll end up having players just log out, which is never a good idea.

    Personally, I don't do a lot of sailing, but I use my ship frequently as a safe harbor. This would take most of the functionality away from ships for me, and frankly, I'm done with things I buy here losing personal value.

    So, no. I can't give support to anything that lessens ship function.

    I know we have very differing views on the Gem and Veil part, but I have some agreement with this, even more so that veils can farsee across distances. I think there needs to be a distinction between hiding to remove yourself from direct -active- combat and having the space to be logged in quietly to chat or do other things. (House / city / order tasks etc)
    image
    ShirszaeIsmayKiet
  • LaedhaLaedha Posts: 90Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Solnir Moving one square out of harbour (or even 20 squares out of harbour) will likely get you sunk. A ship that's not actively being sailed should be in harbour. 

    @Atalkez I get what you're saying and I think there could be some changes but I'm having a hard time thinking of how to balance it with the other functionality of ships so that it's not too much of a deterrent to people using them or a wealth barrier. Also, I don't think the argument "that's not what they're supposed to be for" is any better than "that's how they've always been." It should be about what's good for the game, not making sure they match some predetermined intended purpose. 

    Ships used to be less safe. You could follow somebody boarding and force board without having captain privs. That was mostly removed because people were being complete punks. You can seriously trash a ship if you manage to get inside.

    It takes huge effort to build up crew xp and morale, and if a person can kill crew by getting inside, that makes any changes a no-go, in my opinion. But crew will attack a person on a ship if they manage to get aboard, and it doesn't seem fair that the crew can kill you but you can't kill them, so I'm not sure how to make that workable. On the plus side, there would be a lot more use from swashbucklers if they did deter attackers, so that's a good thing. Maybe it should be adjusted so only swashies can kill and be killed? Protect the rest of the crew since their xp is what determines turning and row and order speed. 

    Also ship trades really are predictable. They do happen all month but there's a big rush in the couple of hours after midnight GMT, which is also when the current crop of pirates tends to operate. Also not a dealbreaker, but people looking to trade already need to watch out for pirates (which I like!). A couple of thieves sitting in their ships at Tasur'ke or Thraasi with shipwarning on and watch 4 spec could wreak havoc on trading. There's a lot of gold involved, it would be tempting. 
  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,293Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm all for increasing the attractiveness of player housing. 100% agree that more gold sinks are better too.

    But, my fundamental disagreement is with the idea that this has to come at the cost of devaluing ships.

    I'm of the opinion that having somewhere that is absolutely safe to idle with no consequences is a benefit to the game. And there's no shortage of people who agree with that point of view.

    However, I also disagree with the idea of being able to avoid consequences for your own actions.

    I'd be more than happy to chat about finding a balance between those two viewpoints. Perhaps; aggression cooldowns, any level of infamy disabling boarding privs, etc?


         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    ShirszaeCailinLaedhaShimi
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,837Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As someone who sails a lot, mostly doing ship trades, but also stores stuff on a ship, I think it's silly that ships in harbours are completely unassailable. If you want to AFK on your ship, do so, but make sure you stand where there's swashies who can pwn any invaders (AFK on a guard stack equivalent) or buy an out of subs extension on your ship and make it non-prism.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    DupreAtalkezShimi
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyPosts: 4,566Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I’d really like a gate leading into my Tundra plot instead of a door, I’d pay credits if that were even possible.

    I had a decent size house in Cyrene that had full upgrades and I loved it. Every room was anti-prism, one room had full regens and privacy. Had news access and stables and different environments. I loved that house but I sank over 5000 credits into building it and that was before the changes to room credits.

    I really freaking love my house in the Tundra but I fear that it’ll take me another real life year or two to finish it. The stable upgrade I recently got was 160 room credits and I still need a gate. I have a half dozen Boring, Change This! rooms because the 10k gold fee just to retitle a room brings out the worst of my perfectionism. I am always wanting to change things up and just designing all those rooms, 10k a pop for room descriptions is harsh.

    I would love to do so much more with my house but it’s incredibly expensive, more so with a fluctuating player driven comms market and village commodity stores getting deleted where it was cheaper to buy.

    I understand the gold sink aspect but it is massively unreasonable for me to have to invest this money. I genuinely miss room credits being available in exchange for 50cr or whatever because I could put my iron elite towards it.

    I’d love to see housing be more affordable and have more options for both security and customisation.

    Most of all, I’d like furniture fixed to not be so bloody awful to look at. I write most o my furniture into the description because the crafting system so bad. 
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    ZbacoAccipiterMelodieGawi
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoPosts: 2,972Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Klendathu said:
    As someone who sails a lot, mostly doing ship trades, but also stores stuff on a ship, I think it's silly that ships in harbours are completely unassailable. If you want to AFK on your ship, do so, but make sure you stand where there's swashies who can pwn any invaders (AFK on a guard stack equivalent) or buy an out of subs extension on your ship and make it non-prism.
    The real problem is when you are trying to do something that is not AFKing in your ship but some OCD asshole keeps spamming prism over and over, effectively preventing you from whatever you might want to do. I'd be fine with ships being prismable, so long as people within could not be veilglanced or mindlocked, if a hefty per ship cooldown to prism was introduced so people could not just spam the ever living shit out of it.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    LaedhaKietShimi
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 830Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Ships do negatively impact Achaea when individuals use them to escape the consequences of their actions.  They do something then flee to their ship where they can stay with impunity until the end of time.  Not everybody does that, but a good number do.  If you don't feel safe, that's what you journal or log out for.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Penwize
  • LaedhaLaedha Posts: 90Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Shirszae said:
    Klendathu said:
    As someone who sails a lot, mostly doing ship trades, but also stores stuff on a ship, I think it's silly that ships in harbours are completely unassailable. If you want to AFK on your ship, do so, but make sure you stand where there's swashies who can pwn any invaders (AFK on a guard stack equivalent) or buy an out of subs extension on your ship and make it non-prism.
    The real problem is when you are trying to do something that is not AFKing in your ship but some OCD asshole keeps spamming prism over and over, effectively preventing you from whatever you might want to do. I'd be fine with ships being prismable, so long as people within could not be veilglanced or mindlocked, if a hefty per ship cooldown to prism was introduced so people could not just spam the ever living shit out of it.
    Agree 100%
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 660Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    Klendathu said:
    As someone who sails a lot, mostly doing ship trades, but also stores stuff on a ship, I think it's silly that ships in harbours are completely unassailable. If you want to AFK on your ship, do so, but make sure you stand where there's swashies who can pwn any invaders (AFK on a guard stack equivalent) or buy an out of subs extension on your ship and make it non-prism.
    The real problem is when you are trying to do something that is not AFKing in your ship but some OCD asshole keeps spamming prism over and over, effectively preventing you from whatever you might want to do. I'd be fine with ships being prismable, so long as people within could not be veilglanced or mindlocked, if a hefty per ship cooldown to prism was introduced so people could not just spam the ever living shit out of it.
    Problem with the bolded (and, admittedly, ANY prism attempts) is that you could just trigger prism line to move a random direction while still being 100% afk. So, whoever is coming for you then incurs that penalty, but gained nothing out of it, and you could have no idea they even tried because you're in the kitchen cooking up some badass fried chicken.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,783Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think the concern about housing mainly being in cities is valid. It would be unfair to OOS owners who spent a fortune to fix it where it was more accessible out of cities, which is where the ships have filled in that space. It's hard to find a middle ground. I do think housing needs more love because it's a lot of potential that doesn't get used, but I also feel like if ships get changed you're going to see a lot of people getting rid of them and less people around. With all of the changes going on lately, theft and spying is getting way more love (it feels like) than any chance at privacy is, or feeling secure in keeping your things safe. Even restocking shops feels riskier these days.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    Laedha
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,638Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Risk is good, though. That’s what I believe is the big disconnect.

    Some of us want more risk, while many people want to eliminate it/keep it eliminated.

    The world feels bland right now when there are so many ways to just remove yourself and minimize risks.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    AntidasTorinnAustereSolnir
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,783Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Risk is good, though. That’s what I believe is the big disconnect.

    Some of us want more risk, while many people want to eliminate it/keep it eliminated.

    The world feels bland right now when there are so many ways to just remove yourself and minimize risks.
    Risk isn't fun when you've worked your tail off to earn something just for someone to ink a little tattoo that cost a few inks to prism in and swoop it all up and take it to earn themselves a nice profit. That feels super unbalanced, and there are so many other ways for risk to exist in this game without it having to be literally taking someone for all they have or just spying on them like a weirdo because someone has nothing else better to do with their day. A lot of us who desire this are just collectors or quiet players who don't even get involved in things to the point where we're not the ones running from combat. I don't want a safe house/ship to run from you, I'm not the one out PKing and dusting shrines. I'm usually just working quietly on something sitting by myself or just enjoying talking to my friends, and I know a lot of other players have a similar play style and all we ask for is this. The city I chose doesn't even let me do any of this stuff, and the people who ARE running from consequences will find other ways to run if their ship is taken away.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    ZbacoRispok
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,404Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 16
    You're not entitled to have your things be 100% safe from theft. Ever. You need to proactively take charge of the safety of your belonging, not whine to the admin about removing impenetrable safeguards. The fact that you feel in danger for simply stocking your shops means that you're being lazy and not doing everything you possibly can to ensure theft doesn't happen. Change your habits if you truly want to be safe.
    Antidas
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 830Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Avoiding the things you are so afraid of is trivial.  The ones who enjoy risk only want it to be possible, not guaranteed.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • CailinCailin Posts: 156Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kayeil said:
    I think the concern about housing mainly being in cities is valid. It would be unfair to OOS owners who spent a fortune to fix it where it was more accessible out of cities, which is where the ships have filled in that space.
    Delos subs, maybe? 
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,783Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you think I'm lazy about it you don't know me. I'm very OCD about my security and have zero problems. I hate that I can't use my OOS plot and soon maybe even my ship because of mechanics in this game, however. I also feel Delos shops lost some value because they are much less secure now due to veil and gem changes, no city guards or defense. I am not only speaking up for myself, it's just a mechanic I am not in favour of, and I don't think it's fun. Keep going with hurling the insults when you have no idea how 100% secure I am, though. I am one of my city's Chancellor aides and Development aides, and I do try to help the Security ministry even though I am not one of their aides. Security is a big deal to me, and it's a huge pain in the ass to deal with some bored person running around as a soul who can hide their death with an artie they paid for. @Kogan is also just as OCD about it as I am, if not even moreso, is Edena's go to Security aide, and Cyrene's MinWar so we both keep on top of it together. I am always in contact with my ministers and happy to educate citizens on housing security.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    Zbaco
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,783Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cailin said:
    Kayeil said:
    I think the concern about housing mainly being in cities is valid. It would be unfair to OOS owners who spent a fortune to fix it where it was more accessible out of cities, which is where the ships have filled in that space.
    Delos subs, maybe? 
    I think that would undervalue what Lenn just paid not too long ago for her OOS plot in Delos. If she is okay with it, maybe?
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • KoganKogan Posts: 401Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aegoth said:
    You're not entitled to have your things be 100% safe from theft. Ever. You need to proactively take charge of the safety of your belonging, not whine to the admin about removing impenetrable safeguards. The fact that you feel in danger for simply stocking your shops means that you're being lazy and not doing everything you possibly can to ensure theft doesn't happen. Change your habits if you truly want to be safe.
    Yeah we're pretty safe with all of this, but at the end of the day you can't enjoy shit because one person gets bored and wants to run around as a soul or phased for 30 minutes or longer and won't stop moving and just runs runs runs and there is no counterplay to that. You can't even tell people to not be mindless in subs because they could literally just be on the way to their house and be instantly tracked to and the person can just heartstop/run around. Unless you happen to be an even more bored serpent who wants to run around as well in the case of phase. Which I am not. I do think there is a very big issue with people being able to pass through doors as souls. It's likely not healthy for the game when someone needs to take a break away for very real reasons to come back after a long time away to find everything they'd ever worked on was stolen by someone bored because they weren't here to replace an eye sigil. If that happened to be Id be hard pressed to give a crap about anything here and would likely just qq and not bother coming back. There are a few fixes to this. I think @Atalkez mentioned butlers placing eye's for you for a gold cost, they could sell some kind of non-decay eye's that could only be placed in player housing, or just make it impossible to pass through doors as a soul. That eliminates the issues with this and people abusing that for explorer ranking as well. Stockroom stuff -is- a bit sketchy currently. Best example I can give you is prism and refilling. Now with the changes to remedies it takes 6 seconds regardless of many fills I do before I regain balance. I've tested outside of a stockroom doing a refill and having someone immediately prism and trying to move before it goes through. You do move first, but I should shit my pants if it happened that way in a stockroom. Even then if I were to DC (and I do have a low timeout) I'd be very concerned about whats available to keep me from losing everything. That's something I'm not sure there is a fix for, but it is bothersome. I think I'm absolutely entitled to things I paid for to serve a purpose that they served when I paid for them. Some people may disagree and that's okay. Historically however when things are changed an alternative is usually offered or something is redesigned entirely and that is what this discussion is about. I would argue that nobody in this game is entitled to the things I may have spent real money on since a lot of the rare items run you for credits and not gold. People talk about wanting the world to feel dangerous well lets start with theft. You can safely pause your curing system, try to steal from someone, and still regain balance with plenty of time to cure up 3-4 afflictions and evade/sprint/phase with very little counterplay from a single person attacking you for it. That's not dangerous at all. Nor does it carry any real implications outside of a bounty and enemy status to a city which doesn't even matter if you had both of those anyways. Theft in its current incarnation, while difficult to pull off at times, doesn't carry much danger in my opinion. This is further complicated by the fact thieves tend to target people they know do not fight.
    KayeilCailinZbaco
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 830Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Agreed on that part.  Perhaps theft needs to be more dangerous or have other lasting implications too.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,783Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You make some fair points but I am not too keen on having guards. When groups of people decide to infiltrate they've proven guard bashing is entirely possible and then you're still screwed anyways. That still makes ships as they are right now superior. I also think as mentioned earlier that outdoor rooms need some kind of protection because otherwise those are 100% useless no matter what changes are made to housing. I don't think it'd be impossible for the admins to explain some kind of way to justify that when Mhaldor is currently using a power that keeps you from duanatharing out of the city.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • KoganKogan Posts: 401Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Torinn said:
    Agreed on that part.  Perhaps theft needs to be more dangerous or have other lasting implications too.
    The only lasting implication is if you happen to do it long enough to become infamous you can be ganked. Which once again most thieves are serpents and can phase to avoid that conflict anyways with no worries if the person looking for you isn't a serpent. I'm also on board with the idea you shouldn't be able to phase and sit around forever. I shouldn't have to sit in my subs for an hour because you're phased in there and running around just because you're bored. That's not engaging or exciting for anyone. Id be interested in seeing it work much like any other skill of the same nature. Throw a cost on it and once endurance expires you're unphased and thrown off balance or something. It doesn't even have to be as fast of a drain as other skills of the same nature, but it needs an expiration otherwise I'm not sure what the counterplay is at a point in time where your city has no serpent around. Nobody can enter their houses to enjoy them as everyone has to wait on said serpent to decide they're finally bored. Alternatively make houses safer and they can still enjoy them while said serpent does laps around the subs.
    KayeilTorinnZbaco
  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itPosts: 1,632Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes, but as I mentioned in some of the suggestions earlier, if the no-prism upgrade is buffed to include a permanent monolith then infiltration is essentially next to impossible unless someone follows you in, which you really then have no one to blame for (easy enough to throw an eye).

    Alternatively, if houses were made a separate area that you had to get perms to go to (same with shipboarding) then that would also be moot.

    I agree with the outdoors room thing and hence that is also why I suggested an upgrade for no travel into this room, which effectively nulls track.


  • KayeilKayeil Washington StatePosts: 2,783Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jurixe said:
    Yes, but as I mentioned in some of the suggestions earlier, if the no-prism upgrade is buffed to include a permanent monolith then infiltration is essentially next to impossible unless someone follows you in, which you really then have no one to blame for (easy enough to throw an eye).

    Alternatively, if houses were made a separate area that you had to get perms to go to (same with shipboarding) then that would also be moot.

    I agree with the outdoors room thing and hence that is also why I suggested an upgrade for no travel into this room, which effectively nulls track.


    Throwing an eye is no issue at all for me, that doesn't bother me one bit, or it being its own area like ships. It's the infiltration via skills like prism, similar class skills, wand of portals, tracking, etc or the gem of reincarnation that's a crappy issue. I agree anyone who is too lazy to to use a simple eye sigil before opening a door is just asking for it at that point.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itPosts: 1,632Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 16
    Yes, we're agreeing on that at this point - a no prism, permanent monolith and no travel upgrade should stop most infiltration, but it's still technically possible to infiltrate via following someone in if they're careless - which given how easy eye sigils are to get and use, I don't see the need to change. For those of you thinking infiltration is impossible this way, trust me, you underestimate human laziness.

    If houses aren't made separate areas, they would be purchasable upgrades so that it doesn't come bundled with housing (so infiltration is still available for people who don't put in the effort towards safeguarding), but if you want it, the option is available. That would give characters something to work towards (and if it's a clan housing, a great common goal to save up for).

    Having said that, if any of this is implemented I'd really like more shops to produce wood for cheaper <_< though I know the goal is to make all commodities player-produced so we'll see how that goes.

    Kyrra
  • ShaydeShayde Posts: 347Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kogan said:
    Torinn said:
    Agreed on that part.  Perhaps theft needs to be more dangerous or have other lasting implications too.
    The only lasting implication is if you happen to do it long enough to become infamous you can be ganked. Which once again most thieves are serpents and can phase to avoid that conflict anyways with no worries if the person looking for you isn't a serpent. I'm also on board with the idea you shouldn't be able to phase and sit around forever. I shouldn't have to sit in my subs for an hour because you're phased in there and running around just because you're bored. That's not engaging or exciting for anyone. Id be interested in seeing it work much like any other skill of the same nature. Throw a cost on it and once endurance expires you're unphased and thrown off balance or something. It doesn't even have to be as fast of a drain as other skills of the same nature, but it needs an expiration otherwise I'm not sure what the counterplay is at a point in time where your city has no serpent around. Nobody can enter their houses to enjoy them as everyone has to wait on said serpent to decide they're finally bored. Alternatively make houses safer and they can still enjoy them while said serpent does laps around the subs.
    Before the misconception is passed around... Serpent does have a continuous endurance cost to use phase and smart ones train fitness to keep that cost minimal.



    Shimi
  • KoganKogan Posts: 401Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 16
    Shayde said:
    Before the misconception is passed around... Serpent does have a continuous endurance cost to use phase and smart ones train fitness to keep that cost minimal.
    Having played serpent in the past it was never anything very taxing and generally didn't even matter. Like at all. I'm fairly sure with endurance regen and fitness you'd sit at 100%. If not just fitness allowing you to phase for longer than you'd ever need to practically.
    AsmodronTorinnAntidasGawi
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