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Seeking some Serpent wisdom, especially with Artefacts

TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member

Quick Background:

I hope this wall of text isn't too obnoxious for everyone with all the questions but after much deliberation between Serpent, Jester, Shaman, and Runewarden I believe I've finally settled on Serpent. I haven't played since an extremely brief stint in Ashtan around 2010 and with all the changes I am in need of planning the best route when it comes to my Serpent. I've read quite a bit on the forums but a lot of my information might be quite out of date and I'd rather not waste too much money on stuff that won't really help in the long run. I'd like to make bashing up to dragon a bit easier (as I'm sure Serpent is still pretty squish) while also maximizing my PvP potential as I get around to focusing on combat, AND getting the most use should I decide to Multiclass into one of the above!

 

Questions:

I'll have about a total of 7500 Credits to spend with 2000 extra lessons although I'm sure a Veil/Hood is still required so more like 5500 and will likely have just a little less after Tr-Transing, plus some Survival, Vision, and Avoidance.

 

Spec/Trait: So far I believe I can spec to 15 Dex but would take a hit down to 11 Con and I will likely choose Nimble trait to help just not sure if the loss in Con is worth the Dex gain?

 

Dirk: I was under the assumption that a L3 was required to be competitive at the higher levels but recently told the L1/L2 dirks will work just fine due to a cap with the right Dex to match, so which would you personally go with?

 

Lash: I've read that some forged lashes can get close to 170-180 speed which would make me favor the L2 lash since I believe the L1 is at 187 and L2 209, is the extra 450 credits worth the 22 points in speed?

 

Silver Fangs: An increase to the damage of shielded mobs when bashing at higher levels or so I've read but also quite expensive at 500 credits.

 

Bow: Pretty much to help out group combat. I haven't read too much into the benefit of the increased speed so at the moment I'm considering just picking up a Ranger's Bow so as not to have to worry about the decay of a Dark Bow.

 

Shiny Charm: I've spoken with a few Serpents and they've made note that with the changes to server side curing illusions aren't used as often and instead a few have switched to Hypnosis. With the 33% increase how drastic of a difference could this make?

 

SoA: Pretty much a given plus I can use it if I multiclass, should also help in both bashing and PvP.

 

Wings: Almost as popular as the Veil/Hood so I'm sure I'll pick up a pair of Eagle Wings too. I don't see much benefit to the Atavian ones.

 

Of course I'm also looking at getting a Wyrmskin Pack, DragonSkin Quiver, Sip Ring, and some vials/pipes but should I also look at going for better defensive Artefacts as well such as Shackles and Buckawn Amulet? Or should I spend the remaining on a stat increase to Dex and Con like Boots and Belts?

 

Whew that was a ton of questions, and I hope not overly obnoxious. Thanks for any opinions you guys can offer.

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Comments

  • SenaSena Posts: 3,850Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can't give much advice in regards to PvP, but I can help with a few things:
    Con artefacts are a lot cheaper than dex artefacts, so dex spec with +con arties would be the way to go.
    A L1 lash isn't much of an improvement over forged, so I wouldn't bother buying a L1. L2 lash is a very significant boost for bashing though.
    You can use battlerage to balancelessly break shields, so I don't recommend buying silver fangs for bashing.
    You technically need 16 dex to hit the dstab speed cap with a L2 dirk, but 15 dex is only slower by a negligible amount (0.02s), so you'll be fine with that. A L3 dirk will be 0.1s faster, but shouldn't be necessary from what I've heard.
    TujaquesUtianima
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,274Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Get Agile trait at Level 50 for 16 dex.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Tujaques
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Sobriquet said:
    I'll allow more knowledgeable serpents to comment on class specifics but I can't see any valid thought process that says a veil is required. You're doing yourself out of 2000cr for something that isn't class related or utility based. 
    This seems to be quite the consensus, I guess I could put the credits towards more useful things.

    Kiet said:
    in what world is a veil required

    l2  dirk with 16 dex is the most cost efficient. Level 3 after this is a tiny improvement, though it lets you get 15 dex instead. You need at least 15 dex anyway, there's no such thing as a good con specced serpent.

    lash is good if you're gonna bash a lot, but idk if it's better than crit pendant to start.

    you have a lot of 'of course' items that make no sense. Veil, obviously, but pack and quiver are also pretty pointless unless you're swimming in credits.

    trans avoidance/survival, soa, then probably belt/bracers/sip ring as far as defensive stuff goes. Beyond that you only need level 2 dirk if pking, and lash/crit if you wanna bash a lot. wings obv good too.
    In regards to the veil this is the "A lot of the my information might have been outdated/incorrect" part. For some reason I remember being told Thoth's Fang and a Veil were essential to PK. With Nimble/Agile and 16 Dex I'll definitely go L2 Dirk. So the L2 Lash would be less use at lower levels than the Crit Pendant I assume because of how low my crit chance would be until I start getting into the higher levels? 

    Honestly though with the savings from not getting Dex arties or Veil Lash/Crit combo should work out just fine.

    Sena said:
    I can't give much advice in regards to PvP, but I can help with a few things:
    Con artefacts are a lot cheaper than dex artefacts, so dex spec with +con arties would be the way to go.
    A L1 lash isn't much of an improvement over forged, so I wouldn't bother buying a L1. L2 lash is a very significant boost for bashing though.
    You can use battlerage to balancelessly break shields, so I don't recommend buying silver fangs for bashing.
    You technically need 16 dex to hit the dstab speed cap with a L2 dirk, but 15 dex is only slower by a negligible amount (0.02s), so you'll be fine with that. A L3 dirk will be 0.1s faster, but shouldn't be necessary from what I've heard.
    Dex spec with Con arties definitely appears to be the winner in terms of how I'll work out the stats. I hadn't noticed the difference in cost before this!

    L2 will definitely be the way I go, this confirms what I surmised from reading earlier posts, thank you! Combined with Krypton's advice on the Agile trait it'll save me quite a few credits as well.

    Ah! The posts I've seen previously recommending Silver Fangs seem to be before battlerage.

    Krypton said:
    Get Agile trait at Level 50 for 16 dex.
    Traits were definitely an added confusion to the mix so this and the cost of the Dex vs Con arties per Sena completely solve that.


    To everyone who commented I'm pretty sure I've read multiple posts of yours on the subject from the past so it's pretty awesome to have you all comment so quickly. Thank you!
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,071Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have a morphing weapon, so I'm biased: 

    Instead of buying a level 2 dirk, buy level 2 dex boots, you're spending 450 credits more for about the same dstab speed. The bonus of 2 more dex is very game changing for hunting, regardless of what you decide for lash.  Dex effects phase time,  garrote speed, and bite speed (possibly more).

    I'd go the dex route -unless- you plan on thoths being a goal.  I traded my level 2 dirk to upgrade my boots, and I find level 2 boots and dex spec to be plenty fast enough with a forged dirk to kill anyone I need to. Thoths wasnt my goal though so I'm definitely biased. 
    TujaquesDochithaExelethril
  • AntidasAntidas Posts: 1,366Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'll second what Kiet said. Level 2 dirk will function just fine for pvp at 15 dex, but you won't quite be speed capped. That said, I'm not speed capped and I'm a reasonably successful combatant, so its not necessary so long as you're close. For the record, I'm sitting at 14 dex with Thoths, and was sitting at 13 dex with Thoths for a long time up until about a week ago. The hit to constitution will definitely hurt a bit, though, so I'd recommend picking up con/health arties to help with that a bit.

    Bow is amazing for group combat - I would never ever consider trading in my Lupine. I pvp'd my way to dragon using my Lupine, and barely hunted at all. I was under 2000 mobs slain when I hit dragon, iirc. Would 100% recommend picking one up. Not only is it high damage, but it gives you a way to be useful in group fights before you're comfortable with serpent melee, which can be complex if you're not already comfortable with the affliction system.

    Would highly recommend SoA, its one of those purchases that will make you significantly tankier both in pve and pvp.

    Pack, quiver, and veil are 100% not necessary, although having them is a pretty nice quality of life enhancement. That being said, veil is super expensive, so I'm not sure its worthwhile when you still need other more important things, such as more health.

    Would firmly recommend getting wings if you're interested in combat, although they aren't strictly necessary either. However, lots of fighting occurs at the clouds, and it kinda sucks to be unable to get up there on your own. Plus, they're nice transportation for just getting around to various hunting grounds when you're leveling.

    Lash is really only useful for pve, but if you intend to be hunting a lot then I would strongly recommend one, since it'll increase your damage by a significant amount.

    Silver fangs are nice for pvp when you're trying to damage someone out with camus, but definitely not necessary, especially if you have a bow. There are some occasions when you don't have the luxury of going adjacent and sniping, but more often than not if you're trying for damage, you're more useful just using your bow than biting camus. Regarding pve, I'm not sure the advantage you get of being able to do a little more damage when they're shielding is worth the 500cr. Would place this as a solid "nice, but not necessary".

    Same deal with the shiny charm. Faster hypnosis is nice, but its not going to make or break anything. Definitely not necessary.

    Buckawns are, unfortunately, fairly necessary for combat if you don't want to just get webbed constantly. Would recommend, even though I, and lots of others, dislike their importance.

    Shackle of Garash is nice, but also not necessary. Would buy one if you get everything else you need and have stuff left over, but not otherwise.


    So, to summarize. Assuming you're at 15 dex, I'd get l2 dirk, l3 bow, SoA, wings, buckawns, lash (if you want to bash to dragon and not just pvp there with lupine), at least one pipe if not just 3 so that you can put elm in an artie pipe and not deal with lighting it in aeon. Whatever you have left I'd recommend sinking into con belt, health bracelets, and a health sip ring to help your survival.

  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Austere said:
    I have a morphing weapon, so I'm biased: 

    Instead of buying a level 2 dirk, buy level 2 dex boots, you're spending 450 credits more for about the same dstab speed. The bonus of 2 more dex is very game changing for hunting, regardless of what you decide for lash.  Dex effects phase time,  garrote speed, and bite speed (possibly more).

    I'd go the dex route -unless- you plan on thoths being a goal.  I traded my level 2 dirk to upgrade my boots, and I find level 2 boots and dex spec to be plenty fast enough with a forged dirk to kill anyone I need to. Thoths wasnt my goal though so I'm definitely biased. 
    Thoth's definitely isn't a goal per se. It was merely stemming from a memory (possible false one at that considering the reactions I've received) that to be competent at all with PK as a Serpent one required a Veil and Thoth's Fang. So even though there is a Dex cap with regards to dstab the L2 Boots as WELL as going Spec/Trait for Dex would have a larger effect that might in the end make the extra cost worth it especially if I only required a forged Dirk at that point. That is definitely something I did not consider. 

    Also, morphing weapon?
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,071Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tujaques said:
    Austere said:
    I have a morphing weapon, so I'm biased: 

    Instead of buying a level 2 dirk, buy level 2 dex boots, you're spending 450 credits more for about the same dstab speed. The bonus of 2 more dex is very game changing for hunting, regardless of what you decide for lash.  Dex effects phase time,  garrote speed, and bite speed (possibly more).

    I'd go the dex route -unless- you plan on thoths being a goal.  I traded my level 2 dirk to upgrade my boots, and I find level 2 boots and dex spec to be plenty fast enough with a forged dirk to kill anyone I need to. Thoths wasnt my goal though so I'm definitely biased. 
    Thoth's definitely isn't a goal per se. It was merely stemming from a memory (possible false one at that considering the reactions I've received) that to be competent at all with PK as a Serpent one required a Veil and Thoth's Fang. So even though there is a Dex cap with regards to dstab the L2 Boots as WELL as going Spec/Trait for Dex would have a larger effect that might in the end make the extra cost worth it especially if I only required a forged Dirk at that point. That is definitely something I did not consider. 

    Also, morphing weapon?
    Someone has the dstab speed formula, which would probably help your decision a lot, but I forget who.  @Cooper, @Jarrod?

    My decision to trade my level 2 was before the latest changed to dstab speed, so my generic poor man's recommendation of dex could be slightly different now.

    Morphing is basically any level 3 melee weapon. I use forged dirk if I'm hunting with lash morphed or for fights I want to go soft on someone.  Thoths definitely still has a higher speed cap though which is why your decision would boil down to whether you wanted it long term. 
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,274Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dstab speed is base 2.8s (before nimble), reduced by 0.14s for each point of dex over 13, and reduced by 0.2s per level for artefact dirks. The speed cap is 2.1s, or 2s with a level 3 dirk.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Austere
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,850Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2
    Dstab is 2.8s, -0.14s per point of dex above 13, -0.2s per level of artefact dirk, capped at 2s with Thoth's, 2.1s otherwise. All numbers are before nimble.

    So L2 dirk with 15 dex gives you 2.12s, basically at the cap. 18 dex with a forged dirk will also bring you to the cap, or 17 dex with L1 dirk.

    Edit: For reference, the 13 dex with L3 dirk that Antidas mentioned is 2.2s, roughly equivalent to L1 dirk with 16 dex or forged with 17.
    AustereAntidas
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,274Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Austere said:
    Dex effects phase time,  garrote speed, and bite speed (possibly more).
    Also flay, backstab, and pickpocket speed/success.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Antidas said:

    So, to summarize. Assuming you're at 15 dex, I'd get l2 dirk, l3 bow, SoA, wings, buckawns, lash (if you want to bash to dragon and not just pvp there with lupine), at least one pipe if not just 3 so that you can put elm in an artie pipe and not deal with lighting it in aeon. Whatever you have left I'd recommend sinking into con belt, health bracelets, and a health sip ring to help your survival.
    So the L3 bow is THAT much better in terms of support/PK than the L1 or L2? I don't see a ton of people talk about it so to hear you PK'd to dragon that way is quite encouraging.

    I would be at 15 until Agile at Level 50; Using Sena's reference I could in theory get a L1 dirk once I take Agile to boost Dex to 16 and save some credits to go towards making myself tankier or a Lupine Bow.

    Krypton said:
    Dstab speed is base 2.8s (before nimble), reduced by 0.14s for each point of dex over 13, and reduced by 0.2s per level for artefact dirks. The speed cap is 2.1s, or 2s with a level 3 dirk.
    Sena said:
    Dstab is 2.8s, -0.14s per point of dex above 13, -0.2s per level of artefact dirk, capped at 2s with Thoth's, 2.1s otherwise. All numbers are before nimble.

    So L2 dirk with 15 dex gives you 2.12s, basically at the cap. 18 dex with a forged dirk will also bring you to the cap, or 17 dex with L1 dirk.

    Edit: For reference, the 13 dex with L3 dirk that Antidas mentioned is 2.2s, roughly equivalent to L1 dirk with 16 dex or forged with 17.
    I see, so going Dex 16 with L1 would put me pretty close to the cap at 2.2s while the L2 would put it at 2.12?
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,274Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2
    15 dex L2 would be 2.12s, yes.

    16 dex L1 would be 2.18s.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Krypton said:
    Austere said:
    Dex effects phase time,  garrote speed, and bite speed (possibly more).
    Also flay, backstab, and pickpocket speed/success.
    Krypton said:
    15 dex L2 would be 2.12s, yes.

    16 dex L1 would be 2.18s.
    I see. Wow, a lot to take into account. I can't image the .06 would make a rather huge difference though and if I needed I could always grab the L1 boots later on which combined would be 50 more credits than the L2 but have the added Dex benefits to other skills.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna bePosts: 3,348Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The L2 lash is also a damage boost to the garrote, though.
    Huh. Neat.
    Utianima
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Ahmet said:
    The L2 lash is also a damage boost to the garrote, though.
    Yeah, starting to look like I'm going L1 Dirk, L2 Lash, L3 Bow. Possible L1 Boot as well but those may just wait.
  • DaironDairon Posts: 278Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tujaques said:
    Ahmet said:
    The L2 lash is also a damage boost to the garrote, though.
    Yeah, starting to look like I'm going L1 Dirk, L2 Lash, L3 Bow. Possible L1 Boot as well but those may just wait.
    I would suggest forged dirk, L2 lash L3 bow L1 boots for the same value. Wont see a difference in lvl 0/1 dirk due to your higher dex, assuming you will have base 16 from spec/traits + 1 for boots. 

    This will increase your garrotes speed and make you a bashing machine. 

    But in all honestly, get defensive arties first since serpent is really squishy. Offensive toys are fun, not not really necessary.

    I would buy a SoA, level 2 health set (bracelet ring belt), eagles wings, 3 pipes, skills, and the offensive arties mentioned above
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,071Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tujaques said:
    Ahmet said:
    The L2 lash is also a damage boost to the garrote, though.
    Yeah, starting to look like I'm going L1 Dirk, L2 Lash, L3 Bow. Possible L1 Boot as well but those may just wait.
    Level 3 bow can wait. Pking your way to dragon now days would be tough with the way raiding works. I wouldn't buy any bow until you get into fighting and find a use for it. I have a level 2, but I only bought a bow to have shooting as a not serpent and the upgrade was cheap iirc. 

    I'd say this applies to most arties though.  Have some fun unartied. Figure out which aspects of the game you want to focus on before you invest heavily in something you might not ever use.  It's also worth noting that once you have arties, the pool of people willing to fight you is going to change.  Serpent beginning should absolutely not invest in going crazy.  Learn the basics first, augment where needed. A lot changes in 7 years. 
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,128Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Don't buy a bow of you don't group combat everyday. Is better to spend on Dex. Dex affects serpent all around. Next, lash of you hunt, dirk if you pk. You will hunt more than you pk. So lash first. Also, hunting helps you get more gold and credits too. Buy health Arties, bracelet, con, sip. Trans avoidance .And get a deathcape, it changes serpent hunting forever. Wings will change your QoL totally, so get it too. 
    AustereTujaques
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    edited December 3
    Austere said:
    Tujaques said:
    Ahmet said:
    The L2 lash is also a damage boost to the garrote, though.
    Yeah, starting to look like I'm going L1 Dirk, L2 Lash, L3 Bow. Possible L1 Boot as well but those may just wait.
    Level 3 bow can wait. Pking your way to dragon now days would be tough with the way raiding works. I wouldn't buy any bow until you get into fighting and find a use for it. I have a level 2, but I only bought a bow to have shooting as a not serpent and the upgrade was cheap iirc. 

    I'd say this applies to most arties though.  Have some fun unartied. Figure out which aspects of the game you want to focus on before you invest heavily in something you might not ever use.  It's also worth noting that once you have arties, the pool of people willing to fight you is going to change.  Serpent beginning should absolutely not invest in going crazy.  Learn the basics first, augment where needed. A lot changes in 7 years. 
    That's the plan. So much has changed I'm not even 100% sure I'll still enjoy the same play style as before. I just want to be prepared this time around. I didn't think so many people would respond so quickly to be honest. 

    Dochitha said:
    Don't buy a bow of you don't group combat everyday. Is better to spend on Dex. Dex affects serpent all around. Next, lash of you hunt, dirk if you pk. You will hunt more than you pk. So lash first. Also, hunting helps you get more gold and credits too. Buy health Arties, bracelet, con, sip. Trans avoidance .And get a deathcape, it changes serpent hunting forever. Wings will change your QoL totally, so get it too. 
    That's part of the plan as well. I'm going to buy the hunting arties first and will have enough left over for most other ones I need when I start to get into combat with the leftover credits and ones I've earned from hunting. This is quite a silly question but I don't remember a death cape, mind refreshing me?

    Edit: Ooooh, is that the Sycophantic Shoulder Cape? I'm still pretty bewildered by how Talisman Sets work. Definitely new to me.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,178Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Artied serpent bashing speed is great, but unless you have defensive arties it is very squishy. Very, very squishy.

  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Cooper said:
    Artied serpent bashing speed is great, but unless you have defensive arties it is very squishy. Very, very squishy.
    So for the defensive/stat ones I'm looking at SoA, Hunter's Belt, Mayan bracelets, Ring of Vitality, and Mayan Ring? I've done a ton of research into the offensive ones, but as for the defensive/stat ones I'm not as 100% sure which gives the best benefit.
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    I also assume for the death cape I'd need to wait for the pieces to come up on the Talisman Market in order to complete the set? Or hope the stockings have them?
  • DaironDairon Posts: 278Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    There are people that still have sets for sale
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Dairon said:
    There are people that still have sets for sale
    Oh, that's good to know. Other than the Talisman Market how would I go about finding them? Sorry, the talisman's are definitely a new concept to me. I'm been reading up on the help file and forum posts. Hope you don't mind.
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,850Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 3
    Most pieces on the talisman market are extremely overpriced, and any good deals will likely be snatched up immediately. Your best chances, aside from having friends with the pieces you're looking for, are the market channel (watch for people offering the pieces, occasionally post that you're looking to buy them) and ads (same thing, check the ads every once in a while, maybe put up an ad with what you're looking for).

    Expect to pay much higher prices if the set isn't currently available though, it might be best to wait for a promotion that gives out a lot of death pieces (or whatever talisman you're looking for).
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Sena said:
    Most pieces on the talisman market are extremely overpriced, and any good deals will likely be snatched up immediately. Your best chances, aside from having friends with the pieces you're looking for, are the market channel (watch for people offering the pieces, occasionally post that you're looking to buy them) and ads (same thing, check the ads every once in a while, maybe put up an ad with what you're looking for).

    Expect to pay much higher prices if the set isn't currently available though, it might be best to wait for a promotion that gives out a lot of death pieces (or whatever talisman you're looking for).
    Thank you very much Sena! I will keep an eye out.

    I really can't thank you all enough for helping out.
  • DaironDairon Posts: 278Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I take orders for talisman sets, so feel free to hit me up in game
  • TujaquesTujaques Posts: 26Member
    Dairon said:
    I take orders for talisman sets, so feel free to hit me up in game
    Thanks! I'll make sure to do that once my credits roll in at the end of this month!
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