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The ongoing Yggdrasil event

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  • KietKiet Posts: 2,213Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    IDK, a couple of events doing that doesn't make it 'the norm.'

    Even if it is, so what? The world's meant to be dangerous and not just 'IM A RIGHTEOUS PALADIN' level trashy fantasy. Sometimes things go badly, who cares? The story moves a long, so we, as players, are rewarded for participating anyway.

    The issue is more that this is another expression of 'can't lose' mentality. People are so terrified of not being the valiant heroes that win that they just sit around helplessly. Make a decision and stick to it, who cares, OOCly, if it goes right or wrong as long as it's interesting?
    CailinTaryiusAlrena
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,164Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 8
    Keorin said:
    As a small note (I really do like the event overall), I'm getting a bit tired of the plot of so many of these events seemingly including "Adventurers rush to the scene, try to help, but just play into the villain's plans." 

    I'd guess this is so players can be included earlier in things, and so it's not just villainous groups doing stuff in the background, but between this event, and the Black Wave starting on a similar beat, it's starting to feel like a repeated thing. This gets kinda frustrating, at least to me, because it feels like being punished for trying to participate or move things along, and it gets to the point where it's hard to conclude ICly that you -should- be helping, because it went so great the last few times.

    I'm all for twists or making choices that backfire, but it's a pain when that choice is to participate or not participate, because you can't tell if there even are other directions that things could be pursued. With this core gathering, for instance, it's impossible to really work out what the Emissarys' motivations are (supposedly one of them talked about the prime not being worthy for burning until the conduit is repaired), and impossible to tell if there are any other story directions for things to go in other then helping the emissaries, so it makes it hard to really get excited about participating, ICly or OOCly, at least for me.

    I agree, but a large portion of why it is we are playing into the villain's plans...is because the players consistently feel the need to rush to help any random individual without thinking it through. It seems we never learn from our mistakes.

    I am certain @Nicola and the team have Plans B, C and D for different scenarios but usually...we seem pretty predictable.


    The best advice I can tell you is to not feel obliged to assist if you dont want to. Look for other routes.

    Some Hashani players and I were incredibly satisfied to be rewarded with a little scene of torturing one of the Vigil members before Pazuzu was released. I didnt get much information but the experience itself at least was a different route than rushing to help some random group because...they asked us to. The admin noticed we were taking a different route and obliged to assist. I highly suggest doing the same.
    ShirszaeCailinNyneve
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 396Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The problem is that when you're playing a long-term character that might reasonably learn from such things, "hey let's help x kinda suspicious group, it worked so well the last time" starts feeling like a pretty dumb IC reaction to have. This isn't things going badly in general, it's adventurers once again helping to create their own problems. It'd have been pretty different, for instance, if the Vigil was a well-meaning group that was either tricked or screwed up to summon Pazuzu. Instead, we helped a bunch of cultists, and "maybe we shouldn't help suspicious groups we know nothing about without learning more" starts feeling like an appropriate IC conclusion to take.

    I don't care OOCly whether something goes right or wrong (or, I think there should realistically be a balance, but in any given case I don't care). And I definitely don't mind suspending my OOC disbelief at the probably inevitable "hey, here's this group/thing no one ever heard about that's shown up to help." But when it starts being clear that IC suspicion is clearly warranted, the second or third time you helped make a disaster happen, then having to suspend -that- in order to participate starts feeling a bit frustrating.
    ShirszaeAsmodron
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,249Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think part of the sentiment there is that loss isn't always handled that well from either side.  Sometimes it's handled fantastically (thinking the fall of Shallam and building of Targossas transition period there), sometimes it's just "ha ha, you're all idiots who fell into my trap!"  The latter doesn't feel good for players who have spent centuries IG as scholars or students of various things, and it doesn't really give them the opportunity to actually reap the rewards of centuries of IG dedication to studies. 

    I understand why it's done like that though, it's very hard to improvise alternatives that depend on players discovering and reacting.  Especially across varying time zones.  What if someone discovered a way around the trap, and approached denizen X when no admin were around to animate that denizen and respond?  I think that's sort of a big reason why things are very "on rails" so to speak.  Or, at least, why they feel that way.
    ShirszaeKeorinLenn
  • CailinCailin Posts: 75Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I mean... Some of the folks who have spoken up in game have made some good points (eg, Asmodron) and I would be happy both ICly and OOCly to help with a counter plan. But I can't seem to find anyone who is actually going out and doing something different. There's no organization around the idea. I do think the admin might work with us on a Plan B if we did? Maybe? This is my first event so I'm new to stuff. 
    Asmodron
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 589Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Same.  I liked his post but afaik it's just him going "don't do it" so I'm just sitting here going "alright I won't collect cores" while tons of others do
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • CailinCailin Posts: 75Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Maybe there just aren't any good leads. I don't know.
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,534Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, but you couldn't even convince your own city to side with you!
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,213Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 8
    The weird assumption here is that the people working with vigil didn't try basically all of those things (and a few more), too. You can both research things and still take decisions that'll advance the story. Sure, sometimes they'll bite you in the butt, but often even the worst outcomes have a silver lining. Like in this event, even if we did free Pazuzu, we also gained access to the elemental embassy, which helps us with our original goal.

    IMO, fear of ever acting because 'what if we're being tricked and then I'll look bad' is way worse a choice.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Caer WitrinPosts: 2,823Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Honesty, you are just missing the essential point some people are trying to make, I think. At least, I think what people mostly resent is the railroaded feeling of 'either do this or sit out' more than the fear of being duped.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

    image

    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    AsmodronZbacoArkantos
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,534Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think you necessarily have to "sit out." See: Asmodron's example. Though somebody does have to just be like "fk it, I'll be duped" to advance the story, it seems.
    Shirszae
  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,474Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    I told you guys at that big library meeting. But no, don't listen to Aegoth the Wise. You are all shameful
    Needs more water and air elemental holocausts. Save us Aegoth the Wise, save us.
    Tysandr
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,164Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    The weird assumption here is that the people working with vigil didn't try basically all of those things (and a few more), too. You can both research things and still take decisions that'll advance the story. Sure, sometimes they'll bite you in the butt, but often even the worst outcomes have a silver lining. Like in this event, even if we did free Pazuzu, we also gained access to the elemental embassy, which helps us with our original goal.

    IMO, fear of ever acting because 'what if we're being tricked and then I'll look bad' is way worse a choice.
    I dont know really. Mhaldor had information and contact with the vigil early on, it took the rest of us some time before we found some. We simply took a different route than helping..and we got results.

    Alycia and myself went out of her way to hunt them down and get some answers. We tortured Salyn for a good time but he kept just preaching about "putting the king on the throne". I finally travelled to Zanzibar to get a hand on the Counjurer but she escaped me.

    I honestly wonder if we had taken such a route from the start, which clearly seems was possible, what could of been. :/

    The only thing we can take from it  now is to think of our choices and not feel obliged to follow just because an NPC said so. Like I said, other routes are always possible, not just 1.
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 425Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    This entire discussion is just making me think of the murderer everyone chased around and then killed his brother.
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 396Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    To be clear, I didn't mean to say that there needs to be more available outcomes or choices. That's definitely not going to be possible, and the start of a big story is always going to need to hit certain beats. Pazuzu always needed to get freed, and adventurers were always going to need to 'lose' to make that happen. 

    I just think that there are a ton of ways that the story could be written that don't require adventurers to be tricked into helping the bad guys -again-. 
    Shirszae
  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itPosts: 1,578Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 8
    While only marginally related (and I don't think this would ever happen due to everyone wanting to participate and/or get honours lines in an event), I do wonder what would happen if one day nobody responded to the denizens/event at all, or decided to completely shun them and ignore their pleas for help. That would be hilarious in a way (though I'd feel bad for the admin!)

  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itPosts: 1,578Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 8
    Well, I meant feel bad in that the admin might have to put in some extra effort to code other stuff or find other ways to get the playerbase to participate/bring about the outcome they want. But now I kind of want that to happen.

  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 200Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Makarios said:

    Often the more we have to release in an event the more linear it will be. We can work around this somewhat (the Black Wave was actually not difficult in this regard since there were a lot of ways we could introduce our release there), but in this particular events case we have multiple significant releases that certain things need to happen to enable. One option we do have (and again we did this before) is not release something because the event doesn't go that way (see: Kal-tai-vakha). That's not something we want to do in this case due to how interconnected most of the components are, and due to the work that's been put into the various sub releases. There are a couple of things that players can influence in regards to how certain releases happen, and we are seeing some of that already. But its a fair assumption that this event will not be as flexible as either the Underworld War or the Black Wave in terms of branching choices and such.

    That said, we are seeing people trying some cool stuff and will absolutely go along with this kind of thing. But derailing the train almost always does have to come from the players side: we do pay attention to what is going on and are happy to redo parts of an event if given an opportunity.

    The attention to detail is really appreciated.
    Proof of Concepts: Sailing Map, Trading
    bounty
    "It's not rocket surgery."

    ShirszaeExelethrilUtianima
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,130Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:

    Often the more we have to release in an event the more linear it will be. We can work around this somewhat (the Black Wave was actually not difficult in this regard since there were a lot of ways we could introduce our release there), but in this particular events case we have multiple significant releases that certain things need to happen to enable. One option we do have (and again we did this before) is not release something because the event doesn't go that way (see: Kal-tai-vakha). That's not something we want to do in this case due to how interconnected most of the components are, and due to the work that's been put into the various sub releases. There are a couple of things that players can influence in regards to how certain releases happen, and we are seeing some of that already. But its a fair assumption that this event will not be as flexible as either the Underworld War or the Black Wave in terms of branching choices and such.

    That said, we are seeing people trying some cool stuff and will absolutely go along with this kind of thing. But derailing the train almost always does have to come from the players side: we do pay attention to what is going on and are happy to redo parts of an event if given an opportunity.

    You never did tell me if my poking at Tenith’oru made Parni show up in the BW event :cry:


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • TeshaTesha Posts: 2,797Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just take credit for it. TARG GAVE YOU GUYS DEPTHSWALKERS. YOU'RE WELCOME.

     i'm a rebel

    ExelethrilTrillianaXias
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,164Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hmm, even if we all refuse to help the emissaries...their original plan will still go through without any issue. Linear indeed :/


  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,174Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you think the event is linear right now, you are wrong! 

  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,164Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    If you think the event is linear right now, you are wrong! 

    Simply going off the quote from Makarios that stated events with this much content tend to be linear in order to make it easier to release the content. :)

    I've been involved in many aspects of this event and I can definitely see why that quote is true, it really does have the sense that attempting to go off-track...will lead you to a dead-end.

    The general proposed idea of the recent meeting of the players was to ignore the emissaries for at least 2 months and see what comes of it. We are now informed that even if we help them or not....what they want to happen is gonna happen. That's pretty linear :P


  • SenaSena Posts: 3,849Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Asmodron said:
    We are now informed that even if we help them or not....what they want to happen is gonna happen. That's pretty linear :P
    It sounds to me like it actually gives at least two possible outcomes, even if you assume the emissaries are being completely forthright.
    Shirszae
  • BronislavBronislav MarylandPosts: 320Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Hey, this feels familiar. :smile:






    Siduri
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