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If you could delete one skill, what would it be?

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  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,237Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Other (specify in comments)
    If you think coding for ret is simple, I think you're vastly underestimating the difference a ret system makes vs no ret system.  With a ret system tracking your balances properly, you can eat herbs exactly when your herb balance comes up (giving you 1.5s herb balance when it's needed, instead of the 2.5s minimum the server-side has in ret), you can time your attacks to start exactly when your balance returns (shaving up to 1s off of your attack's effective balance time), and many other things.  Unless you're tracking all of your balances locally, there's room for measurable improvement here.  Not many people actually do this in ret right now, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that it CAN be done and there is pretty significant room available for improvement via timing.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 14
    Touch Web
    You don’t need to do all that to destroy 95% of the game, because everyone has this weird hatred for it, and refuses to get better at it. It takes skill and effort to be able to maximize retardation, imo. It’s not that difficult to be functional in retardation, you just need to put some work in understanding mechanics and balance times on the user level. 

    I find it odd though that you’re saying all of this can be achieved with local tracking etc, and its an issue, as if automated combat isn’t already a thing.

    Retardation CAN be automated somewhat, but it requires immensely more information that automating normal combat, which is why I say it really kills automation more than anything. I used to hate it, then I spent time to learn to fight in it.

    I’d still hate it if my entire Achaea PvP system was limited to 2-3 buttons that do 900 things, too. Feel like the people who dislike it the most, automate the most. Correlation is there.

    Edit: I’m confused how you get a 1s shave off balance time. At most you could replicate the queueing system outside of retardation. We’re already able to send something the millisecond we get balance.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Aegoth
  • KythraKythra Posts: 267Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Other (specify in comments)
    Snipe.

    Fuck snipers and snipe bots who call themselves combatants and talk shit behind City walls/guards at real combatants.
    Fuck snipe does as much damage as a bbt.
    Fuck that you can pair evade with snipe while hidden/ghosted/cloaked.
    Zackery
  • AlyxeriAlyxeri Posts: 262Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 14
    Other (specify in comments)
    Atalkez said:

    While I don't disagree with most of your points, you're silly if you think retardation hampers 'proper' automation. If anything it HELPS because they're curing things more slowly. At best it's an annoyance for people who have different weapons that they raze with (tridents vs axes for sentinels, daggers vs scythes for depthswalker for example), but still want to keep SoA wielded while in ret.

    It is not immensely difficult to write code that staggers commands, to account for ret, and someone who's dedicated to automating is more than likely gonna know how to do that.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 14
    Touch Web
    Sure, if they’re the person who wrote it.

    Most people use someone else’s code for that, so generally, their automation isn’t as good in retardation, is my point.

    Like you mentioned for shielding. Most people will get shut down by a shield in ret, from what I’ve seen.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,237Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Other (specify in comments)
    Atalkez said:
    Sure, if they’re the person who wrote it.

    Most people use someone else’s code for that, so generally, their automation isn’t as good in retardation, is my point.

    Like you mentioned for shielding. Most people will get shut down by a shield in ret, from what I’ve seen.
    If that's your point, then your point is that yes retardation is a polarizing factor for those who can automate well, and those who can't.

    As for how you can shave up to 1s of (I said up to, bear in mind), that's by tracking what your ability's balance time is, and then sending the command to do the next one exactly 1s before its balance time is up.  So, if dstab is 1.7s, you can send a second dstab 0.7s after your dstab lands, and get a second one on time.  If you value a faster second dstab in ret over that one cure, then that means automation (and reliable/stable ping) has a clear advantage there.  Unless you mean to suggest you can accurately time 0.7s manually I guess.  The closer your ability's balance time is to a 0.5s mark, the more valuable this kind of automation is on average.  It's situational, but situational things are often where automation shines.

    If you don't time it like this, and instead use CURING AEONCOMMAND, you'll get one dstab, one cure/something else, then another dstab, which puts your dstab time at 2s.  0.3s might not seem like much, but across a couple of hits that adds up.  Especially if you're not the primary target and don't need to spend time curing.

    This gets even worse if you are just focusing on curing.  Using CURING AEONCOMMAND, you can cure a herb affliction at best once every 2 seconds.  You can burst a bit if it's focusables, with herb/focus/herb, but after that you're down to 2s per affliction minimum.  If you automate it locally (and again, your ping is low and reliable), you get a herb every 1.5s reliably.

    The addition of CURING AEONCOMMAND at least alleviates some of the ping problems ret has, but for anything more precisely timed in ret ping still plays a big role there.

    Just because few people are exploiting this gap in effectiveness right now, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  I don't really like how ret is paraded around as the "great equalizer" when it ... really isn't.
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,165Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Radiance
    Bottom line is if you're automating in ret, then you shouldn't be fighting in ret. Go manual or go home
    Saeva
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 14
    Touch Web
    No, my point is more that retardation separates those who think freely, adjusting as needed and those who mindlessly mash 1-2 buttons. It’s abaolutely an equalizer between those who download a script and mash Attack1, or those who’ve taken the time to understand their class and work with their skills accordingly, for all scenarios.

    I mean what you’re talking about is exactly how you fight well in ret. I could script it to be more efficient, sure, but everyone that fights in ret already does the whole ‘send before balance’ thing. That’s not an issue, imo.

    I think the issue more lies in the disparity of class offense inside of ret. BM single afflicts at a 2.5s balance, while serpent can double controlled afflict at 1.7. In comparison to cure times, yeah that’s a big difference for sure. Apostate is the same, with double controlled affliction. DW can use curare and whatever instill is present for double. Meanwhile a dwc Knight has to pre venom, since they can’t inline inside of ret.

    I’m not saying retardation is perfect, I’m saying that not enough people have actually taken the effort to work at it, for anyone to say ‘this sucks rip it out’. Tweaks are fine, arguing that it should be removed because it can be automated is kind of ridiculous, when anything in Achaea can be automated.

    Also yeah, if you have played your class well with any kind of consistency, you should be able to time your balances to a high degree of accuracy. That’s not to say I’m better than a script with all contengiencies accounted for, but there isn’t one that’s been created yet that even comes close, and that’s with the simplicity of not dealing with retardation. BM is terrible in ret, but I manage just fine, because I know how to time my stuff properly.

    I do agree that curing could use an adjustment inside of ret, where SS cures on time instead of a full second behind as it does right now. Mostly, though, I’m not curing unless I absolutely have to, since I’m consistently pushing commands to attack.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AntidasAntidas Posts: 1,331Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Touch Web
    Touch web because its a 200 gold tattoo that you can give to an 18yo level 50 noob, who can then effectively shut down even the best combatant in a group, and the only way to counter that is a $250 artifact. Thats some BS, imo.

    DOWN WITH WEB TATTOO
    DOWN WITH WEB TATTOO
    DOWN WITH WEB TATTOO

    XadenAsmodronTysandr
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,560Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Touch Web
    Tbh I honestly only voted this one because it means I'd get 800cr back to spend on shinies.
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    AustereTysandr
  • AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Other (specify in comments)
    I dont think retardation brings enough to the table to warrant the amount of work we expect people to put into it.  I handle retardation just fine, but I can understand the hate coming from a lot of people involving a mechanic that goes through such extremes of usage and not usage.  Go for three years without seeing it in a raid, one decent magi drops it and your entire group might as well hands off tumble. 

    I don't hate retardation for myself.  I generally enjoy fighting in it within reason and with the appropriate counters (not staff), but anything that has the possibility to introduce hands-off-watch-as-I-die for players trying to get their foot in the door to pk isn't a good thing. Retardation isn't hurting seasoned players.  It's hurting newbies and noobs.

    As for automation haters, automation has it easiest upgrading to fight in retardation.  It's a single check on your send in most cases vs going through every single alias for manual(source: get you a man that can do both) 
    PenwizeShirszae
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,237Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Other (specify in comments)
    Even if you are able to consistently time your attacks to within 0.1s (OVER, not under or you'll waste the whole second!) that's still relying on a stable ping, which still means even a highly skilled player dealing with a high/unstable ping will miss it occasionally.  The arguments presented for ret here are very similar arguments to those used against server-side curing and server-side queuing.  I'm not sure anyone could really argue those two things haven't been great for everyone though, both in removing the scripting barrier to entry and removing the biggest issues caused by ping.  Ret is still an outlier there, in that both variable ping and time spent on (and skill with) automation make rather significant disparities between people's performance in ret.

    That's on top of what Austere mentions as well.  I definitely agree that learning to operate in ret is a whole other style of playing, which presents another barrier itself compared to every other aspect of the game.
  • DevranDevran Posts: 443Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Touch Web
    I think touch web is a bigger culprit than anything else, simply due to the fact that it is either ANNOYING AS FUCK or utterly useless because you spent 800 credits on an artifact.

    I am with @Atalkez in that it should be removed and the artifact refunded.
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 3,197Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 14
    Touch Web
    In retardation: curing off. Manual all the things, laugh at the people who hated it and refused to practice in it.

    I voted Web tho because it's a stupid mechanic. Antidas outlined why.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • CaliraCalira Posts: 334Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 14
    Piety
    Uncounterable, invisible, with an artie that lets it linger twice as long as the other hinders when unattended. Please no.
    Shirszae
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,141Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 14
    In 1v1, it's one thing. In groups, though, ret is basically who has the cheesiest strat and gets to pull it off first. Hardly interesting.

    Make it target a single person + the mage only and it retains its interesting factor for 1v1 but stops being obnoxious for people who haven't pkd for dozens of hours or who dont have a cheese strat worked out or the right comp/arties/talismans to abuse it.  Actually no this would suck

    That said, I don't find it interesting enough for 1v1 that I'd be opposed to just deleting it entirely, but deletion is a bit extreme.
    Asmodron
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,165Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 14
    Radiance
    pls no to shadowdance choke 2.0
    Ankhareoutef
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,141Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I guess if you make it 1v1 only then it becomes an uncurable aeon so that's probably worse in retrospect lol
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Touch Web
    Calira said:
    Uncounterable, invisible, with an artie that lets it linger twice as long as the other hinders when unattended. Please no.
    Uhh desecrate?

    Have you seen how long gravehanda lasts without the necro in room, not to mention persists through death?

    Don’t disagree about the invisible part, or that fork probably is a bit too good.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,098Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Desecrate is locked to one faction, though. What is Ashtan, Eleusis, or Hashan supposed to do? The counter to gravehands (bard) is available to all.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Touch Web
    Sure but that doesnt qualify for uncounterable.

    That said, I never understood why it’s layered that way. Evil can desecrate rites, Good can’t do anything in return, but Bard (completely unrelated) can.

    Imo, all of it should be available in survival.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Antidas
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 334Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Piety
    Atalkez said:
    Sure but that doesnt qualify for uncounterable.
    Does to me
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,045Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Touch Web
    <join a real faction joke here>


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Taryius
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,156Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Grove Dampen to work against rites, plz. Then Cyrene will have a recourse against Targ piety every 50 years during CTF.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 534Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Evade
    Piety isn't even that good.  Can't gank anybody, they just wander out and laugh before I can get their mana low enough :(
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • ArmaliArmali Posts: 833Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited November 14
    That's why you blanket the area with your super long lasting uncounterable piety.
    SolnirHalos
  • KoganKogan Posts: 317Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 14
    Other (specify in comments)
    I'll just vote for @Farrah since nobody else has... even after all the classleads to nerf Farrah. Or is that not how this works? :lol:
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 3,197Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Touch Web
    Atalkez said:
    <join a real faction joke here>
    <insert desperate Hashan is relevant diatribe here>

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,094Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Radiance
    Aegoth said:
    pls no to shadowdance choke 2.0

    I swear i'd ragequit....

    I dont know why anyone thought afflicting someone with incurable aeon instantly....was a good idea....
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