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  • ReysonReyson Posts: 277Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Coming of age ceremony is getting a lab coat and sticking your fingers into a power socket so your hair gets all frizzy and stands up on end. 

    I like it. 
    ZbacoPrytheEhene
  • HataruHataru Midwest USAPosts: 472Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Nazihk said:
    Kiet said:

    I honestly am at a loss on how to 'fix' Hashan. Like what possibly is there to be done, other than embracing an actual ethos? Hashan doesn't want to embrace Twilight, fine. But what else is there left to embrace? Every archetype is kind of taken.
    Go the whole 'No Gods, No Masters' route. Object to all Divine interference. Turn the Wellspring into a force capable of letting them hold their own against Gods. Instead of Orders, they can have some kind of secret scientist society that builds alchemical 'shrines', etc. Want to be the Science City? Then do that shit hardcore imo.
    Oh man I have no idea how this would work functionally or how it could even be worked into the rest of Achaea but if this were possible, that would be amazing and it would give Achaea some really great variety on the city front.

    Other cities would inevitably lose people to such an idea. And I dislike losing the Darkness role as a whole, but man, if Hashan's gonna reject their founding ideals, reject finding a middle ground. May as well go full tilt.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
    MathildaAsmodron
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 564Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I would love No Masters Hashan. Anything better than the inertia of the present.
     <3 
    Asmodron
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,149Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That'd be a huge step up and be genuinely intriguing, yes. Hard to justify for a city founded by Twilight, though, and I imagine he'd just blow up the city at that point.
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,239Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    That'd be a huge step up and be genuinely intriguing, yes. Hard to justify for a city founded by Twilight, though, and I imagine he'd just blow up the city at that point.
    Him trying to blow it up but them using the power of the Wellspring to stop that would actually be a really interesting catalyst to build the city up.  Probably wouldn't happen, but damn that'd be cool.
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,245Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I floated that idea a long time ago with Penwize, and he convinced me that it just couldn't work, for several reasons. You need a healthy respect for the gods in the game, both because they're administrators, and also because they're the big movers of the world. There'd be no god to spur the city into action. Twilight and Ourania, even with all the opposition and anti-theocracy of the city, when they ask for something to get done, a good chunk of the city rallies to do it. See the new Obelisk, that Darkenwood conflict with Eleusis, the moonstone thing with Ourania and Tasur'ke, etc. You just can't replace their ability to call the city to action. The end result would be a Hashan more apathetic to the world than its ever been before.
    image
    Asmodron
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,239Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean, all of that junk right now is demonstrably not working, though.  Ashtan seems to be trying a variant of the no-divine route with the Chaos Court, who's to say it wouldn't work for Hashan?
    ShirszaeHataruAldwicAntidas
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,245Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Is the Chaos Court any different from a divine, except in name? They're the ultimate authority on Chaos, the (Chaos-inclined) Ashtani follow their orders. Is that really any different?
    image
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 3,197Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's an interesting idea at the very least.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    ShirszaeAldwic
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,239Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you need an NPC to rally behind, it wouldn't be hard for the admin to supply one.  Maybe a member of the Cauda Pavonis gets cast out, but finds something interesting about the Wellspring and guides Hashan to understanding its power.  Maybe Yudhi decides to make Hashan his summer home and the Wellspring his private bath.  I don't know, I'm not an expert here!  There's potential if they wanted to go that route with it, if the general feeling is the current route is not working.

    Having Twilight as an angry, direct adversary could even be interesting itself, with the Darkwalkers trying to reclaim control and all the anti-Darkies being vindicated and all that jazz.
    HataruShirszae
  • AlyxeriAlyxeri Posts: 276Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited October 19
    Penwize said:
    Having Twilight as an angry, direct adversary could even be interesting itself, with the Darkwalkers trying to reclaim control and all the anti-Darkies being vindicated and all that jazz.
    Or it'll just result in people being dicks and casting them from the city for "trying to ruin the city," or whatever other bullshit excuse they can come up with for having RP that wasn't the exact same as theirs.

    Not that that ever happens in IRE games :open_mouth:
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,239Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thus giving the Darkwalkers an even better reason for secrecy and deception! Working with the reality of the situation, instead of against it.
    Shirszae
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 564Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Hashan can go that route. Different denizens throughout the city would study the wellspring, and if the godmins want to do something with Hashan, they can just use the mobs. OOC, the godmins and the players would still work together, but via a different vehicle.
     <3 
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,266Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You know, you could replace an explicit divine with a player/volunteer who essentially controls the ominous roiling of the Wellspring and all the stuff that's associated with it. Hashan already has a super established history and precedent of tinkering with the Wellspring, so in the event that they were to throw off their divine shackles and do the WE STAND FOR OURSELVES thing (which has huge precedent in that the Tsol'teth recently did something extremely similar themselves), all you'd need is someone invested with the extent of what the Wellspring is capable of, and what people are doing with it at any given point

    A city like Hashan (which was the first to establish laws and all that jazz) essentially rising up and saying "fuck the Divine" would be a pretty compelling premise for a citystate and faction overall. It even ties in fairly closely to their alchemical involvement - the Cauda Pavonis also had great hints of "what we do treads the line between mortal and gods" with all the hubris to match.

    It's a really fucking good idea. The more you think about it, the better it works.
    ShirszaeAldwic
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 745Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kiet said:
    That'd be a huge step up and be genuinely intriguing, yes. Hard to justify for a city founded by Twilight, though, and I imagine he'd just blow up the city at that point.
    It's super easy to justify for a Twilight city because Twilight is, well, Twilight.

    There's all kinds of ways you can hook the manipulative and secretive God of Darkness into the heart of a secret society of alchemists. Manipulating Hashan into using the Wellspring to attack his enemies without having to actually expose himself to conflict is totally the kind of thing that fits him.

    IMO, this kind of thing is perfect for him because Twilight's role and theme just don't work for a public face; he is much more suited to playing the puppetmaster behind the scenes.

    Penwize said:
    Thus giving the Darkwalkers an even better reason for secrecy and deception! 
    Exactly.
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,103Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hataru said:
    Asmodron said:
    Kiet said:
    yeah but literally all the orgs do that.

    targ/mhaldor/ashtan also all outdo hashan on the ritual front by a lot. Even Eleusis does. Saying Hashan is somehow a special ritual place is meaningless if Hashan does little with it.
    Hashan used to do much and more. It was very prevalent with the spiritwalkers and city rituals were conducted often.

    Sadly with their dissolution it is much less prevalent. You'll find the occasional darkwalker ritual or a citizen attempting something..but it is pretty obscure.

    The potential is there, but people are too busy squabbling over politics to care.
    I mean having been a Shamanic Elder in that house. I can tell you, it really wasn't as prevalent as I've ever seen in Mhaldor. IDK during the batshit crazy Bluef days they did a whole bunch more I wasn't involved in (but why that was problematic, why it was out of line, why it doesn't really count imo is a conversation not for this thread), but the past is full of rose tinted glasses other wise. It was definitely more prevalent than I've seen in recent years, but when I moved from Spirit Walker leadership over to Congregation and being a Vicar etc. I almost immediately was already doing double the ritualism I was doing back in Hashan. At a lot of points the Spirit Walkers were just too small and insular, and the biggest ritualists often WEREN'T Hashani in the house or gave little to no shits about Hashan (for example, at one point I was forced back Hashani beause it was part of some backwards treaty that Shaman/SW leadership had to be Hashani even if full members weren't required to be).

    A few people really loved Hashan (like Kachan), don't get me wrong, but there were more than a few times the house seriously asked to be removed from the city.

    But I do miss doing a yearly sacrifice to the spirits. RIP that altar man, it was the best.

    EDIT TO BE CLEAR: My only point here is Hashan can't take fucking credit for what the Shamans/Spirit Walkers did when we weren't even required to be Hashani because so many people hated Hashan.

    Ah sorry but your name isnt familiar XD..roughly how long ago were you a member? Were you around for the Wlo days?

    I do not doubt nor disagree that the house at times wanted. I can recall a time for each Hashani house wanting out.

    I also dont disagree of mhaldor's ritual potential.

    I'm merely saying Hashan was built as a construct of ritual power. It is an actual literal part of it. Mysticism is found all throughout it's history..it's just constantly been drowned by politics.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,149Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 19
    rip at talking about the shamans and not recognizing hataru's name

    On the hashan thing: now would be the best time ever to try and cast off the divine, at any rate. The Tsol'teth basically proved you can kill them and make your own if you want to.
  • HataruHataru Midwest USAPosts: 472Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited October 19
    I mean your name isn't familiar to me either, but that's sort of irrelevant I was on the Elder Council for both the Shamans and Spirit Walkers for 100 years ish (I don't have good records of exactly what year I left for Mhaldor). Let alone that I kept in very good contact with many Spirit Walkers after I left when I was Viera's heir because I told her it was Bluef or me, one of us had to go. Which went real well real well  for the house, as we all know.

    (Edit is me flubbing enter for submit on my phone, sorry) either way - you recognizing my name or not is irrelevant to my point so. 

    (Edit 2 cause fuck me trying to phone one handed I guess, my finger needs to heal already) The point is is that you're basing Hashan's mysticism on something that for a good part of its history was almost solely the result of an insular group of people who a majority of really wanted nothing to do with Hashan.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 564Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Yeah, and that was problematic. Good riddance to Houses that wanted an out, anyway.
     <3 
    Hataru
  • HataruHataru Midwest USAPosts: 472Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Mathilda said:
    Yeah, and that was problematic. Good riddance to Houses that wanted an out, anyway.
    100% agree. It was always problematic how bad the Spirit Walkers wanted out in the early-house days, it caused a hefty amount of drama. A hefty amount. And a lot of that was rooted in Twilight being gone and the Spirit Walkers really aligning with Indrani and just not having a place there. Ultimately more than a century later (lets not talk about some years there) it benefitted the SW to have stayed, but ultimately, it was another house that sort of had an initial idea tha changed because a Divine was gone and ended up having no real place in the city it was in (which is why it was good we could be citizens elsewhere at the time - though most remained rogue, we had a few Ashtani and 2-3 Mhaldorians and I would have been Mhaldorian and Spirit Walker if that rule hadn't change/had Viera not picked me as heir).

    It was 100% problematic, I just hate to see people nostalgia-glasses like the mysticism was driven by Hashan and not the house.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,103Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hataru said:
    I mean your name isn't familiar to me either, but that's sort of irrelevant I was on the Elder Council for both the Shamans and Spirit Walkers for 100 years ish (I don't have good records of exactly what year I left for Mhaldor). Let alone that I kept in very good contact with many Spirit Walkers after I left when I was Viera's heir because I told her it was Bluef or me, one of us had to go. Which went real well real well  for the house, as we all know.

    (Edit is me flubbing enter for submit on my phone, sorry) either way - you recognizing my name or not is irrelevant to my point so. 

    (Edit 2 cause fuck me trying to phone one handed I guess, my finger needs to heal already) The point is is that you're basing Hashan's mysticism on something that for a good part of its history was almost solely the result of an insular group of people who a majority of really wanted nothing to do with Hashan.
    Ah you were back then ( also your mention of Indrani helped figure it out). Yep I joined roughly after that. 

    I can understand your indifference towards a certain member...I wont push at it.

    I do wish you were around for the Wlo days. I find those (personally) to be the pinacle of spiritwalker ritualism and achievement.

    Anywho moving on. I'd love the "no god" concept for Hashan
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna bePosts: 3,303Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Re: the wellspring idea

    Turns out later down the line it was Twilight the whole time, faking His failure, then manipulating things behind the scenes, and it was His power fueling the Wellspring and guarding Hashan against the wrath of other divine.

    Make it happen.
    Huh. Neat.
    YselaNazihkPrythe
  • VoliVoli Posts: 32Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited October 19
    All this talk about Hashan rising up reminds me of the intro trailer to Gal Civ 3.. if you replace every mention of 'Human' with 'Hashani'.


    (found the spoiler button)

  • DominiusDominius Posts: 57Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I'm in for a loyalty system for cities. Something like if loyalty is weak things start crawling out of sewers or NPC towns start attacking the city within its boundaries and the weaker the loyalty the stronger the NPCs. Now that would be reason for some people to support their city.
  • AesgarAesgar Posts: 363Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Nazihk said:
    Ozmatiah said:
    I don't know that I accept the reason that Karren, Vender, Nazihk, Mathilda, Aesgar, and whoever left Hashan because 'others were not willing to die' It just feels like a cop out to me, when I think the identity issue is much bigger.  
    I left because the combat environment was bad, and it's bad for multiple reasons. One is the lack of a good factional identity, which gives the citizens no common cause to rally around. Another is that the general attitude towards death means that citizens aren't as willing to participate in losing fights, and losing fights is how you learn to win them.

    Kiet said:

    I honestly am at a loss on how to 'fix' Hashan. Like what possibly is there to be done, other than embracing an actual ethos? Hashan doesn't want to embrace Twilight, fine. But what else is there left to embrace? Every archetype is kind of taken.
    Go the whole 'No Gods, No Masters' route. Object to all Divine interference. Turn the Wellspring into a force capable of letting them hold their own against Gods. Instead of Orders, they can have some kind of secret scientist society that builds alchemical 'shrines', etc. Want to be the Science City? Then do that shit hardcore imo.

    This is actually the best idea for Hashan I have heard in a long time. Something that would make them standout. Right now they are caught in the "shadows", or somewhere between embracing Darkness and Freedom.

    Would be cool if they had a unique purpose instead of not really knowing where to align themselves.
  • AthroseilonAthroseilon Posts: 38Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    So... fedora Hashan? 

    I like the idea, thought about making a "no gods, no kings" reference, but balancing it would be a wee bit hard. Brings to mind that Pratchett quote about "standing on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards!'"

    If you give Hashan a Godhammer, it's going to have to be tuned so that it can't affect other cities. 

    I still really like the idea, though. 
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,103Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hmm..I could sort of see it working...if the emphasis was on science and the self with a complete rejection of faith....though to reject faith when you have literal walking gods that bestow power and boons on mortals is pretty difficult to swallow.


    Frankly I'd just want to use the giant ritual circle and wellspring to make something like this for Hashan:

    Image result for shield city


  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,081Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lucianus said:
    Hashan needs a visible mechanic to hold players from the moment they complete their city tasks and swear into full citizenship. Dangling a carrot and whispering, 'Oooo~ secrecy~ Work haaard and you'll become a part of it~', can only hold a player's interest for so long. Plus the moment a key player/CL who is maintaining the RP disappears or has to step back due to personal issues in real life, it all starts falling apart and becomes a cycle where Hashan has to fight to redefine itself every time there is a void left behind by that player.

    It's a shame too. Cause Darkness is suppose to be one of the main antagonistic forces vying for dominance in Creation. They're not suppose to be Cyrene-Lite. It doesn't have to be something big like a factional class. A small mechanic like being able to tap into the Well-spring to return to the city from anywhere on the continent via a channeled action or be able to gain a small regeneration bonus would make a huge difference for players looking to feel as though they are a part of something in Hashan.
    Problem is the time to ask for something like that has long passed.

    In the wake of the underworld war they could well have pushed for a mechanic like this based on an RP event they design themselves and would have had a good shout at getting something through.

    You have to earn these things - be that through drawing attention to yourselves through military dominance or through stand-out RP (think Flair).
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