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  • Mathilda said:
    I think what he means is more on the Science and Industry type of progress and civilization.
    Even that is 5/6 of the cities.  They all have alchemy labs, and anyone there could meaningfully engage in scientific or industrial progress with their city's flavour sprinkled on top as a motivator.

    Hashan's science and industry lacks that motivator, and that's sort of the crux of its identity problems I think.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    Going by @Mosr post, the problem is that the people who don't want a theocracy are more than those who do. So there's really little chance of them being removed. Doing it by force is likely to result in just another backlash, with people elected out and probably everyone ousted reinstated back again.

    Personally,  I agree with those who hold that Darkness is too ethereal a theme for a city.  It seems to value secrecy, misdirection, whispers in the dark, and yet at the same time it tries to be the overt mainstay of a city. I think its not too terribly surprising people balk. People want to be all 'in' so to speak, but with an ideology like that, not everyone can be 'in'. In fact, usually the people who can't be in are more than the people who can. And those people will always revolt.

    Its a problem that no other ideology has, or at least not in such a peculiar way. Eleusis comes close, but the issue with Eleusis is one born of historical happenings and mistrust and festered wounds than plain not being in or out with a certain crowd.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • JonathinJonathin Retired in a hole.
    edited October 2017
    Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that Hashan is falling backwards every day, and there are a few of us that are doing our best to dig us out of the hole, but it's like we are trying to fill it in with spoons while the status quo is an excavator.

    I'm more than happy to listen to opinions and ideas though, even if from outside sources because I'm only 1 person and shit, you all are smarter than me.
    I am retired and log into the forums maybe once every 2 months. It was a good 20 years, live your best lives, friends.
  • Tesha said:
    You can remove people from House/City as you see fit when you're the leader. That's one of the powers you have. It's cool if you do stuff differently in your house but don't go crapping all over Torinn for doing things his way in his house.
    Not according to the leaders board!

    Jonathin said:
    Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that Hashan is falling backwards every day, and there are a few of us that are doing our best to dig us out of the hole, but it's like we are trying to fill it in with spoons while the status quo is an excavator.

    I'm more than happy to listen to opinions and ideas though, even if from outside sources because I'm only 1 person and shit, you all are smarter than me.
    I honestly am at a loss on how to 'fix' Hashan. Like what possibly is there to be done, other than embracing an actual ethos? Hashan doesn't want to embrace Twilight, fine. But what else is there left to embrace? Every archetype is kind of taken.
  • Shirszae said:

    Personally,  I agree with those who hold that Darkness is too ethereal a theme for a city.  It seems to value secrecy, misdirection, whispers in the dark, and yet at the same time it tries to be the overt mainstay of a city. I think its not too terribly surprising people balk. People want to be all 'in' so to speak, but with an ideology like that, not everyone can be 'in'. In fact, usually the people who can't be in are more than the people who can. And those people will always revolt.
    The sectecy thing is how Darkness has been portrayed for the longest time, but it's not actually the main focus of the ideology. The Darkwalkers right now have the opportunity to turn that around following the big cleaning out, but I suppose it's being stonewalled by the anti-Darkie folks.
     <3 
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    edited October 2017
    Mathilda said:
    Shirszae said:

    Personally,  I agree with those who hold that Darkness is too ethereal a theme for a city.  It seems to value secrecy, misdirection, whispers in the dark, and yet at the same time it tries to be the overt mainstay of a city. I think its not too terribly surprising people balk. People want to be all 'in' so to speak, but with an ideology like that, not everyone can be 'in'. In fact, usually the people who can't be in are more than the people who can. And those people will always revolt.
    The sectecy thing is how Darkness has been portrayed for the longest time, but it's not actually the main focus of the ideology. The Darkwalkers right now have the opportunity to turn that around following the big cleaning out, but I suppose it's being stonewalled by the anti-Darkie folks.
    Might not be the main focus, but it has always seemed to be a substantial part of it, at least from what I know and remember. And I believe its the secrecy thing that has always been an issue for most people (Understandably so, imo). No one wants to be in a city where they feel like they might not really know what is going on or feel like they are being left in the dark (lol).

    And I honestly can't imagine it'd be desirable for the darkies to drop that either.  So yeah, solutions 'r hard.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Makarios had a post a while back explaining that Ashtan was made to follow Chaos generally, and not "Oblivion," because the latter wasn't a great ideology to orient a whole city around. I tend to feel similarly about Hashan, that Darkness is too thematically rooted in vagueness and secrecy to really be easy to base a city around from top to bottom. That's not to say there aren't more accessible bits, but part of the -appeal- to Darkness is that it's a bit secretive. Compare to the more religious cities, which explain their ideology at every step of novicehood, yell it in cities, ect.

    I'm not knowledgeable enough about Hashan to claim any real opinion on it, but I feel like there'd be more milage in defining "night" into something meaningful and accessible, rather then trying to bend the most secretive group in the game into a far more public religion. And I do think that science/civilization/progress could be a part of that. It's true that most cities are civilization with alchemists and stuff, but when nearly every city in the game is a theocracy or near theocracy, I feel there's room to push for a "truer" pursuit of rationality.
  • When I first met Hashanis in game I asked  them what the whole Darkness thing is all about. Everything they said about secrecy and shadows and stuff seemed more like the lifestyle of a Serpent, or the values of some spy organization, than an ideology a whole city would rally behind. Even now I don't really get it, Hashan always seems more like some House in an actual city than a city itself.

    I think the most interesting part of Hashan's identity is actually its ties to the Merchant's Guild. I used to think Cyrene was the best place to shop, until I discovered Hashan. Holy crap you guys are so good at undercutting everyone else, and the shops are always so well stocked. Plus that mini-bazaar in Tasurke you did recently was really fun.

    Personally I think it'd be really cool if Hashan made this a bigger part of its identity, and becomes some kind of shadowy underworld hub for free trade, information brokering, and the buying and selling of rare, valuable, possibly illicit goods and services. Sort of like an Achaean Silk Road...you guys can put Dr. Kortoxian out of business.
  • The difference is that Hashan was created to follow Darkness.

    Ashtan was created to follow Chaos (Oblivion came much, much later).

  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    Its not like Hashan even celebrates the balance of Moonlight vs. Darkness any more. There is so much Hashan could do to honour both the Darkwalker/Twilight founding, honour that part of who they freaking are, and have other areas of the city thrive (like it did under the Triumvirate because there were things to balance out the sneaky/secret aspects) and it just seems like they'd rather beat their head against Darkness than create a fully functioning idea of their city again.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    I don't think they are against creating a functioning idea for their city. So long as you don't insist that idea to be Darkness. Historically, it hasn't worked. Short of shallaming Hashan, it feels like it is not going to work in the future either. And if they try the approach they did with Ashtan they will just end with another ghost town and not even really resolve the problem completely. 

    Maybe its time they just accept Darkness fits more as a cult than as the city religion and look elsewhere.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Crash course on Darkness:

    Essentially, the Darkness wants to bring the world under something called the One Mind. Cutting through all the religious propaganda, it's basically The World According to Twilight.

    The difference between this and other similar ideologies (like Good and Evil) is that you don't explicitly have to be a part of Hashan to advocate this Great Work. That's why you can have Darkwalkers in Ashtan or in Cyrene or whatever.

    Understandably, of course, those cities might not be too keen on the whole Darkness schtick, so the Darkwalkers resort to secrecy.

    In my opinion, though, the Secrecy deal doesn't have to cover all of the Darkness faction -- only the ones undercover in other cities. If you're Hashani, then you can openly say you're a proud kiddo of Big T. It's still workable as a theme for a city to rally behind, in addition to the Moon theme of change and cycles (like the Darkie theme of making-remaking).
     <3 
  • My thoughts are shaped by my decade-long absence from the game.

    I think the biggest problem I have with Hashan results from the Sundering. It sounds neat, sure, and it provides me with a great place to hunt right now, but it really eliminated the tension between Eleusis and Hashan--a driving source of roleplay. I'd like to see Hashan become more aggressive with its civilization-building progress to spark that conflict again. It's true that all the cities but Cyrene have a civilization-building ethos, but Hashan could distinguish itself by devoting itself to Progress At Any Cost--think Industrial Revolution Britain and America for an example of what I'm talking about. Or just play Sunless Sea--Fallen London is exactly what Hashan should be like, I think.

    To a certain extent, this is somewhat limited by the limitations on technological progress in Achaea. I'm not advocating for us to go steampunk, but there's a certain aesthetic of steam engines and stripmining that's hard to duplicate. In any event, "taming the wilds and bringing civilization to the savages" would be a good focus for the city, in my opinion, and Scientific Revolution Hashan would be able to have its own ethos. It could even be a foil for artistic, libertine Cyrene.

    tl;dr turn Hashan into Imperial Britain. Order and Progress. For King and Country!
  • Why would the Sunderlands have eased tensions with Eleusis? It destroyed a third of the Northern Ithmia, which had managed to re-grow from Hashan's initial expansion...
     <3 
  • Yeah honestly there's no reason for Twilight followers to be secretive in Hashan (or there wouldn't be, except most of Hashan hates darkies now, lol).
  • Mathilda said:
    Why would the Sunderlands have eased tensions with Eleusis? It destroyed a third of the Northern Ithmia, which had managed to re-grow from Hashan's initial expansion...
    Because it separates Hashan from the Ithmia, both physically and in spirit. Talking about the 'Crown of the Ithmia' to an Eleusian was an excellent pastime in previous years.

    If Hashan began expanding past the Sunderlands, you could conceivably respark that tension. But as long as the Sunderlands serve as an effective barrier, there's not much to squabble over. Unless Eleusis grows a spine and starts demanding the destruction of Hashan entire again.
  • Hmm, see the Crown of the Ithmia thing is a problem in itself. Hashan is the Court of Shadows now, with a different (but not unrelated) focus. It's another thing that's caused some issues in the city -- there are still people like Redwan who want to disavow the Court and return to the Crown identity.
     <3 
  • Mathilda said:
    Hmm, see the Crown of the Ithmia thing is a problem in itself. Hashan is the Court of Shadows now, with a different (but not unrelated) focus. It's another thing that's caused some issues in the city -- there are still people like Redwan who want to disavow the Court and return to the Crown identity.
    That's because it's a more compelling identity than 'the Court of Shadows.' Achaea doesn't have a large enough playerbase to be able to do intrigue well.
  • Mathilda said:
    Essentially, the Darkness wants to bring the world under something called the One Mind. 
    Couldn't remember hearing about anything called The One Mind, and couldn't find the phrase in any of my logs or conversations with Twilight either.
    image
  • Mathilda said:
    Hmm, see the Crown of the Ithmia thing is a problem in itself. Hashan is the Court of Shadows now, with a different (but not unrelated) focus. It's another thing that's caused some issues in the city -- there are still people like Redwan who want to disavow the Court and return to the Crown identity.
    That's because it's a more compelling identity than 'the Court of Shadows.' Achaea doesn't have a large enough playerbase to be able to do intrigue well.
    Like I said, intrigue and secrecy was just one part of Darkness as a theme.

    Jacen said:
    Couldn't remember hearing about anything called The One Mind, and couldn't find the phrase in any of my logs or conversations with Twilight either.
    It's in a book, probably has a copy in the Citadel library. I obviously can't check... :D
     <3 
  • Mathilda said:

     Like I said, intrigue and secrecy was just one part of Darkness as a theme.
    Not really. Darkness was always an inchoate blob of quasi-esoteric pseudowisdom that people read whatever they wanted into. 
  • edited October 2017
    I like a ton about Darkness, and I wish Hashan would stop having its periodic meltdowns over it and accept it as a bigger part of the city, but I just don't see how you could structure an entire city around it.

    I understand that there's the whole "Great Work," but by its nature it's very vague. What sort of actions should be taken towards this great work? Why is this Great Work a good idea? How can an individual citizen make this a part of their identity? Factions work by laying out clear actions that can be taken, goals that the faction is aiming for, and reasoning for those goals. Darkness has always been the antithesis of that - while the ideal worlds that Evil, Darkness, Chaos, and Nature all seek are pretty clear, can anyone seriously spell out what "The world according to Twilight" would look like?
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    Mathilda said:
    Why would the Sunderlands have eased tensions with Eleusis? It destroyed a third of the Northern Ithmia, which had managed to re-grow from Hashan's initial expansion...
    Did it? As far as I remember, there was no  room change  whatsoever in the northern ithmia beyond sealing off two entrances to Hashan after the sundering. So no destruction of forest at all. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Jacen said:
    Asmodron said:

    One concept of Hashan was indeed about civilization and expansion.

    Hashan is a mesh of a lot of different concepts. Ritualism is still part of it, so is progress.

    None of those things in any way make Hashan unique. Civilization is 5 out of 6 cities. Expansion is 5 out of 6 cities. Ritualism and progress are 6 out of 6 cities.
    Perhaps I should go into more detail.

    Back when Hashan was initially being formed,  people wanted "more" from city life. Hashan began to expand, both cutting out swathes of the Ithmia for room as well as harvesting lumber. Nature would protest but Hashan only saw them as savages trying to halt progress.

    This eventually spread into widespresd conflict with the Seneschal of Hashan (or high ranking indiviual..cant recall) being declared the first enemy of nature, further cementing the conflict.

    Eventually Hashan was assaulted by werewolves and the forces of nature. The fighting going back and forth eventually ended with an agreement:

    http://wiki.achaea.com/Expansion_of_Hashan

    The entire affair had a sort of lord of the rings feel with Hashan choosing to focus on cultivating itself by sacrificing nature.

    Hashan still continued its ideas of Civilization, even introducing the first official laws of any city.

    While the determination of expansion waned with time, we still see elements of progress with science. However, Hashan is no longer a leading force in civilization vs nature.


    ----

    As for ritualism..while all orgs have some variety...nothing can compare to Hashan. Hashan is itself a giantic ritual circle (part of Twilight's plan of course). If ever they actually decided to tap into it, they could inadvertently cause a cataclysmic event.
  • yeah but literally all the orgs do that.

    targ/mhaldor/ashtan also all outdo hashan on the ritual front by a lot. Even Eleusis does. Saying Hashan is somehow a special ritual place is meaningless if Hashan does little with it.
  • Kiet said:
    yeah but literally all the orgs do that.

    targ/mhaldor/ashtan also all outdo hashan on the ritual front by a lot. Even Eleusis does. Saying Hashan is somehow a special ritual place is meaningless if Hashan does little with it.
    Hashan used to do much and more. It was very prevalent with the spiritwalkers and city rituals were conducted often.

    Sadly with their dissolution it is much less prevalent. You'll find the occasional darkwalker ritual or a citizen attempting something..but it is pretty obscure.

    The potential is there, but people are too busy squabbling over politics to care.
  • Kiet said:
    yeah but literally all the orgs do that.

    targ/mhaldor/ashtan also all outdo hashan on the ritual front by a lot. Even Eleusis does. Saying Hashan is somehow a special ritual place is meaningless if Hashan does little with it.
    That's the problem in a nutshell, isn't it? There's potential but no action. 

    Same issue with the Wellspring, honestly. It's all well and good to say "we're going to study this thing," but if nothing ever comes of your navelgazing, you end up like Cyrene--cut off from the rest of the world.

  • 1) What is the World According To Twilight?

    Peaceful, harmonious, everyone's friends and we're all nice people because we're all mind-controlled by Darkness.

    2) What do we do to accomplish this goal?

    Whatever we have to do - it's the Great Work. We do science experiments to mind-control people. We write stuff to convince people (and mind-control them). We make pretty things to seduce people (and mind-control them). We kill them if they resist (...to mind-control them).

    3) What can I do for the Great Work?

    One of the above. There's not one way to contribute to the Great Work -- as long as it makes people interested in the Darkness, you're good to go buddy.

    4) What about non-Hashani?

    Well you're in luck. Rise to prominence in your city. Then bait-and-switch their ass and declare your eternal love for Twiguy and they should be in love, too.
     <3 
  • When you become a darkwalker you get credentials to a secret forum where they discuss their plan to bring everything under Twilight's influence.
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