Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Crusades

MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
I've talked to @Makarios and he said that he is open to the idea of a discussion regarding the actual mechanic of Crusading.

I can't speak for anyone else, other than the people that I know feel the same as I do, but I hate the way Crusades currently work. Here are my main complaints:

1) There is rarely any conflict associated with them, as a result of further points.

The vast majority of Crusades are about an hour of waiting and another hour of mindlessly boring yourself to death looking for the splinters. This may be fun for, like, a hound dog or something but I find it to be quite possibly the worst hour of my life.

It is very rare that another 'team' will jump into a Crusade. I think I've seen Eleusis in 1 or 2, Ashtan in 1 or 2, Hashan in 2 or 3, and every other one has been Mhaldor or Targossas. Perhaps people just aren't interested in them, which is more a testament to how they work than anything else. The end result, however, is just a snooze fest. 

2) There are only two types of Crusades: The EST time zone "pk crowd" or the EST time zone 4 AM "I don't want to fight" crowd. 

Most Crusades have a start time that is specifically geared towards one of these two reasons, but half of the former ends up resulting in nothing, and almost all of the latter always results in nothing. So the end result is the vast majority of the Crusades taking place during times when a lot of Achaeans can't participate, if they wanted to, or at times when there aren't enough people around to participate if your small little European group -does- want to participate. 

3) The actual end-result of Crusades.

The actual purpose of a Crusade, affecting the "attacking" group, is Avatar. Avatar is fine and dandy and you can have some serious RP fun with it (See: Deucalion/Ashtan), but for most groups the end result is just Avatar. That's roughly 5 Crusades, assuming a 100,000 sweep, which equates to 10ish hours of mindlessly gathering splinters so that one single individual can be buffed for a limited period of time. Now, at present, there aren't many avenues through which to take advantage of an Avatar. The Mhaldor/Targossas war is one example (rare), but the combat situation with the highest potential would be...Crusades, assuming they meant something. So...no real point other than a little flair. 

4) The actual end-result for the defensive side of Crusades.

If your Order is hit by a Crusade, and you decide to do nothing as a result, then your life doesn't change in the slightest. If I recall correctly you can't raise shrines for a small period of time, can't defile, can't world burn, but these are all so limited in scope that the chances of it actually affecting any Order besides Aurora/Deucalion/Sartan is effectively nothing, and the chances of affecting those three is still so low that it's not even worth worrying over. 

So what I'd like to do is open up the floor for ideas to solve the Crusade problem.

How can it be made more fun? How can the results be made more worthwhile, and the consequences more dire? How can you solve the "time zone abuse" that most people hate about things like this? All in all, how can Crusades be changed to accurately reflect the potential of them and the weight the term "Crusade" actually holds?

Would love to hear your thoughts.
Xias
«1345

Comments

  • FrederichFrederich Posts: 1,243Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I giggled @Salisa

    But seriously.  Crusades are roughly 3 hours of waiting, and then, if you start immediately, about 1 hour of playing fetch with shrines.  If you have at least 2 order members, you can get shards in a timely manner so that you are never behind.

    Every 6~ minutes or so, you run back to shrine of your choosing.  Put them in.  Wait for the next fall.

    Rinse and repeat 10 times until all 100k essence is yours.

    Most of the last good few crusades Targossas has gone on have been unhindered by enemy activity.  Proficy was even around for the latest!  Instead of actually contesting with his much larger Mhaldor group (to our group of like 7 or 8??? with mostly newbs)... he ended up just going to defile Aurora's shrines (to which he died, then we took his corpses to defile Sartan)

    Except... the consequence for losing a crusade is roughly 30~ minutes that you can't raise a shrine (it might not even affect defiling).  After which you can just raise to your hearts content.  All of your order shrines down and you just got hit by a crusade?  No worries!  Just re-raise in 30 minutes (midway through the gathering) and you're good to go.

    I don't want crusades to be super hindering.  However, I would very much like if the damn regeneration rate of essence took longer than half an IG day before you can raise shrines again.

    Though, that still doesn't really fix the issue with stolen essence.

    You can


    A ) Revive someone (from the order) if you have 2 order members (of sufficient rank) and use some stolen essence to revive a soul!  (Shaman does this better, without the requirement of having it restricted to orders)

    B ) Fervour, increase.. uh... your offensive shrine powers.. so you can... uh.... worldburn.. better?  Custom deathsights ?????????

    C ) Veneration, custom deathsight for Order Dragons.. and an increase in crit rate vs things you can hunt in areas with sovereignty.  That's.. uh... cool??? I guess???????? Better for people who put shrines where they hunt, useless for pretty much everyone else.

    D ) Elevation.  Oh hey, requires 500k (but depletes all) gives lots of stats for 1 order member for roughly 5+ hours of work (with an additional 15 hours of waiting), not including the wait time for your shrines to get up to the 4 million essence needed to start a crusade.


    Out of all of those.. well.  Avatar is the only one that seems even remotely useful, and even then, you're kind of kicking everyone else in your order in the dick by saying "Lol no me"
    Xias
  • ArmaliArmali Posts: 898Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The real issue is that there's a Targossas is top dog at the moment and they can rarely be contested when they get everybody going in a big city event like this. And since we like to win, if we can't realistically win, we don't contest. It's really that simple. You get outliers here and there, but that's what the prevailing attitude is going to be imo.
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 592Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Interesting.  Have it tied to city perhaps?  I would also like to see shrines that are emptied of power -not- regain their essence back over time.  It may be harsh, but Orders that can't muster together people to defend often enough to even retain a little power for their Divine shouldn't be able to raise shrines on Sapience.  Babel's Order can't get the Ashtani to rally enough to defend Babel's shrine?  Well sorry, that just sucks.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Leviticus
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 26
    Armali said:
    The real issue is that there's a Targossas is top dog at the moment and they can rarely be contested when they get everybody going in a big city event like this. And since we like to win, if we can't realistically win, we don't contest. It's really that simple. You get outliers here and there, but that's what the prevailing attitude is going to be imo.
    That might explain a reason why certain people won't contest a Targossian Crusade, but it doesn't explain why no one else Crusades but Targossas anymore. 

    EDIT: Not that people used to Crusade anyway, was mostly just Proficy/Sartan and I think Kasa one time.
  • ArmaliArmali Posts: 898Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    How doesn't it? Targ comes in, stomps everybody, you lose. It makes perfect sense and explains it perfectly well.
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 357Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Needing an Order-member to even consider participating is a non-trivial barrier to entry when your faction-defining Order is secret and @Kasa is on one of his many hiatuses
    MicaelisMathildaOzmatiah
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Armali said:
    How doesn't it? Targ comes in, stomps everybody, you lose. It makes perfect sense and explains it perfectly well.
    That's a purely hypothetical situation that has literally never happened before, first of all. Secondly, as Frederich so eloquently stated, we've started Crusades multiple times with lesser numbers than many factions. So this idea of "I'm a sissy and I will only start a Crusade that I know I can win" is half the problem here, so that mentality you call "We want to win" is really just "we want to be bored out of our $%#^ing minds".

    We purposefully start Crusades, at this point, where we're outnumbered or entirely outmatched since that's the only way to really draw the snowflakes out, it seems. 
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 357Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Micaelis said:
    stuff
    Leaving your needless condescension aside, how are people in other factions supposed to know 3 hours ahead of time that Targ somehow doesn't plan on bringing their A-game and also won't just show up with more numbers if they lose?
    Leviticus
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 3,217Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 26
    The attitude that people that don't want to participate in crusades are snowflakes is dumb and crusades are dumb in general. Having to follow someone in an order (if said someone is even around) just to get to Nish is dumb. Standing around and waiting for shards to fall is dumb.

    I liked it better when shards fell on the mainland and I could just walk over and start participating when I wanted to, not when the stars aligned so that there was a single way into the area.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Calira said:
    Micaelis said:
    stuff
    Leaving your needless condescension aside, how are people in other factions supposed to know 3 hours ahead of time that Targ somehow doesn't plan on bringing their A-game and also won't just show up with more numbers if they lose?
    You...don't, and neither do we when we respond to Mhaldor's Crusades. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But I am 100% certain that every Targossian enjoyed every loss we've ever taken to Mhaldor during Crusades more than the borefest that is a 100k sweep with no opposition. 
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The "snowflakes" was in relation to the comment by Armali that her people (I assume) only want to Crusade if they know they can win, and don't want to risk a loss. A loss that, mind you, means absolutely nothing. @Jonathin
  • ArmaliArmali Posts: 898Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    People in general want to win. Don't even try to dispute this. See Mhaldor - Targ war where the terms broke down because people played to win. This applies to all competitive endeavors, Crusades included.
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 3,217Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean, if I could actually get to Nish, I might actually want to participate, win or lose. The problem is that Hashan has 1 active Order with like 2 members and as far as I can tell, there aren't that many filling the spots that were emptied.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    Micaelis
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    But all this is under some assumption that people would start caring and responding to Crusades all of a sudden. I understand why people don't care or respond to Crusades, hence the entire topic of this thread. Targossas responds and does Crusades in the off chance we get to fight people, since we like to fight people, and also the whole RP reasoning which is obvious.

    The question is how to make it more inviting or "important", to the point that involvement would be fun and necessary, or some variation of that, so that people like Armali or Calira would outright want to get involved, and also how to make it more inviting so that they're not restricted access because of a Hashani/Twilight issue as she also said. 
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Armali said:
    People in general want to win. Don't even try to dispute this. See Mhaldor - Targ war where the terms broke down because people played to win. This applies to all competitive endeavors, Crusades included.
    I think in general this is true, but I disagree that it's the paramount factor. I think people want to win contested disputes, yes, but I think people would rather lose a contested dispute than have something like a raid or Crusade go unanswered.

    To be more specific, I would rather raid Ashtan and get stomped into Oblivion than have no one respond. Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like most people would agree with that. Yes, people would prefer to win, but not at the expense of fun imo. 
    FarrahXias
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jonathin said:
    I mean, if I could actually get to Nish, I might actually want to participate, win or lose. The problem is that Hashan has 1 active Order with like 2 members and as far as I can tell, there aren't that many filling the spots that were emptied.
    What if there was a...portal, or perhaps "portals" so one team couldn't lock it down and prevent access, that would open during Crusade periods so that anyone could enter Nish? 

    (This would also solve the annoying problem of Aurora's Master Shrine being on Polyargos :))
    TorinnJonathinTahquil
  • CaliraCalira Posts: 357Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Micaelis said:
    Calira said:
    Micaelis said:
    stuff
    Leaving your needless condescension aside, how are people in other factions supposed to know 3 hours ahead of time that Targ somehow doesn't plan on bringing their A-game and also won't just show up with more numbers if they lose?
    You...don't, and neither do we when we respond to Mhaldor's Crusades. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But I am 100% certain that every Targossian enjoyed every loss we've ever taken to Mhaldor during Crusades more than the borefest that is a 100k sweep with no opposition. 
    Well, that's sort of the crux of your argument, isn't it? If Targ is top-dog and nobody can really compete with them when they try and it's difficult to motivate people when they know they'll just get stomped over and over again, then why would people bother? Saying that Targ puts in effort to respond to Mdor's Crusades is entirely irrelevant.. Targ always stands a chance, no matter how many people Mdor or Hashan or Eleusis bring.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,216Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Idk if any faction has responded to every crusade ever, so that's a weird argument to get into, even tangentially by implying it's the 'other' factions that don't respond. The idea no one else crusades is also wrong, Rangor tries to crusade but his timezone is awful so most people don't find out.

    On topic though:

    Crusades are incredibly boring. It's a lot of sitting around, if you die it feels like shit unless you're an order member, some factions have advantages in having more than one way to get to nish (which is only a problem because you can camp entrances, as Mic said).

    The three hour announcement is just the worst of every world. It's too short to plan for, really, and too long to really... be relevant to the people who see it come up. The most you can do is be like 'oh, guess I'll stay logged on for three hours' and that's hardly compelling gameplay.

    Making crusades something more impromptu fun would go a long way, emphasis on actually making it fun. That'd mean that people would need to not feel trapped on nish and screwed if they die, for one. Orders with few/secret order members are especially screwed here, obviously.

    @Calira is pretty right, though. It's not really fun to fight the city with 5000 people, half of them artied dragons and with enough rezzes to multiply this. Personally, I decide what I do with my time based on fun factor, so if it's not fun I go do something else.


    Ismay
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,216Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 26
    I mean, case in point: I'm currently AT a crusade and I've died like 3 times because I'm not paying attention due to pure boredom--this is not something that happens with any other form of PK for me. Running around on a maze-like area just trying to collect shards is probably the single most boring form of conflict I've experienced in an mmo, and I've played dozens of free to play asian mmos.

    The basic issue of crusades extends to the very design of the core mechanic, imo, along with the design of the arena.

    Granted, updating my map would help probably, but that doesn't help with the 500 rooms with the same name. There's also very little motivation to care about nish if you don't care about crusades, so it's a cyclical problem.

    I don't like just being negative about game features, so I'm trying to offer specific criticisms, but it's difficult because of how much I actively dislike this system.
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I feel you and I think a lot of people agree with a lot of your points. The question is how can we change it, on any level, so that it's actually fun?
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 266Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Even if that requires a stripping of it down to its core. If you imagined a Crusade that was actually fun and worth participating in, what do you see?
  • ArmaliArmali Posts: 898Member, Secret Squirrel ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited September 26
    Forced even teams. There's really no way around it. The most fun both sides have is when teams are even (when odds are skewed one side obviously has more fun than the other). Not even numbers, EVEN.

    Of course, that's impossible, so that's why we end up scrapping nearly every conflict mechanism over the years and trying to rebuild them, because we're chasing an impossible (with Achaea's design) dream.

    KietVenderLeviticusMindshell
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,216Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 26
    The first thing, I think, would be to actually make it feasible for people to GET to Nish during the crusade without relying on a small number of order members. We never had this kind of restriction with icons--on the surface, it's similar since it required a guildmember, but guildmembers are a lot more common than ordermembers except for some of the orders that let everyone in.

    Truthfully, I'm not convinced we even need to use Nish. Is Nishntaoba particularly interesting to people? It's hundreds of rooms of uninteresting landscape, repeating room names, maze-like layout. Is this really conducive to interesting fights? Most other forms of conflict are restricted to smaller areas because that's more interesting, though I suppose it's a way to limit entrenching (and yet, this is countered by the ability to just camp the entrance).

    Maybe most important is to actually make the main objective interesting. Running around gathering little shards is incredibly uninteresting, especially since it takes like a full hour even if there's no opposition at all if you only have one order member. Orders shouldnt need to relax their RP requirements to participate in conflict at all.


  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Here's where I think it falls flat:

    Timezone-gating
    Very real and very prominent issue. As others have said, Crusades tend to be in a window of "the pk club" or the "everybody else" window, and membership is fairly fluid between those two groups. There's a very real advantage towards leveraging timezones as an advantage, which is pretty par for the course with something like this. Bigger games suffer from the same issue (see Eve Online). There's no clean solution to this either, beyond removing the time-gating for Crusades in general.

    Unsatisfying gameplay
    Crusades epitomize everything that is boring about group combat, and little about what is good. The opportunity loss for dying is huge so groups tend to turtle and coalesce. Players with heavy mobility and experience scouted are needed to position groups as a whole, especially when the area is so huge and mazelike that actually navigating it properly is annoying to begin with. People get left behind and have difficulty catching up, then get picked off, or just cannot re-engage with their groups in time to be meaningful. The most fun I've had in group fighting is where entry and exit is fluid, and there's a steady stream of people coming at the defenders every few minutes instead of every 10 or 15 minutes.

    Truedeaths are brutal in crusades for non-Order members as they need ferrying back repeatedly, so reinforcements tend to come in 'waves'. If the bulk of your Order force stays alive, it can be a long time waiting on the outside for someone to get you back in. Not fun.

    Gathering splinters is like Kiet said, incredibly boring. Beyond boring, actually. Take your hands off the keyboard for half a minute or more. The way to play the game with splinters is to literally not play the game at all. It's really bad.

    Unsatisfying rewards
    Avatar is okay, but most of the other rewards are very, very lackluster for the effort you can expend to win a Crusade. Targossas grinded enough essence for dual-Avatar to win the capstone war fight in Nishnatoba, but it really wasn't all that incredible despite all of the buildup. Lots of the greater essence abilities are untested, don't work properly to begin with (the mobile shrine effects on Avatar was one of them), another only rewards dragonformed players with a trivial boost at best, and another simply gives your Order a deathsight that they should've had for free anyway.

    Why bother? It's a constant issue with Order-based mechanical stuff. Why bother with sovereignty? Why bother even keeping a shrine network? If your Divine is inactive, you reap approximately none of the benefits of keeping them suffused with essence to grant favours anyway. It needs to be fun, or it needs to be rewarding. Preferably, it should be both.

    Here's what I suggest, though it's all pretty tentative:

    • Reduce Nishnatoba's size to a quarter of what it currently is. Three main areas - the zone that represents the deity being aggressed, the aggressive deity, and a 'dead zone' in the middle which has 3 pathways with varying hazards which will be fought over to control mobility. Neutral/unassociated parties to a Crusade can vie for control of the dead zone to pick off stragglers from either group and opportunistically prey on either party for some essence gains themselves.
    • Remove splinter gathering altogether. Just center the scoring around the fighting. A kill is a point. The side with the least points after a certain threshold starts getting small boosts to help them get back into things, maybe a 5-10% boost to bal/eq which fades as soon as they catch up within a reasonable window. Points at the end of a crusade are translated directly into greater essence, so even if you lose the Crusade, you still get a reasonable sum of essence for actually trying.
    • Greatly improve the strength of what greater essence buffs do. Maybe consider allowing highly ranked Order members or OHs to give divine favours with greater essence. Double the crit bonus on veneration and its duration. Maybe add some strategic abilities that are augmented by sovereignty which can be used in overworld fights to help turn the tides for other objectives, things like
    • Crusade entry points are open to everyone while active. City fonts can be used to get there for un-ordered people.
    • Crusades happen regularly every week or every few days, with the top-holding Divine sovereignty getting to choose who they go to war with.
    Something like that, anyway.



    TahquilLeviticusBronislav
  • FrederichFrederich Posts: 1,243Member @ - Epic Achaean
    @Daeir

    Oh god are we going to have to have a laning phase too?  I just wanna rotate and gank. :(
    Kasa
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,270Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Every 1st of Sarapin, all Orders should be sapped of all their essence, and there will be a 30-minute egghunt for Orders to reclaim as much essence as they can that has fallen across the land as eggs.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    KietBronislavKasa
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,536Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Calira said:
    Micaelis said:
    Calira said:
    Micaelis said:
    stuff
    Leaving your needless condescension aside, how are people in other factions supposed to know 3 hours ahead of time that Targ somehow doesn't plan on bringing their A-game and also won't just show up with more numbers if they lose?
    You...don't, and neither do we when we respond to Mhaldor's Crusades. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But I am 100% certain that every Targossian enjoyed every loss we've ever taken to Mhaldor during Crusades more than the borefest that is a 100k sweep with no opposition. 
    Well, that's sort of the crux of your argument, isn't it? If Targ is top-dog and nobody can really compete with them when they try and it's difficult to motivate people when they know they'll just get stomped over and over again, then why would people bother? Saying that Targ puts in effort to respond to Mdor's Crusades is entirely irrelevant.. Targ always stands a chance, no matter how many people Mdor or Hashan or Eleusis bring.


    I'm not sure which world you live in, but Targ has lost crusades before - gotten utterly slaughtered in them before. Why would other factions feel that Targ always stands a chance and they never do? It doesn't really make sense. Maybe for present Hashan, but not for Mhaldor, certainly. And even for Hashan, it's still a very negative attitude to have. Every faction "doesn't stand a chance" until they decide to do something about it, and that's what makes the game so fun. Targ was at the bottom not too long ago. People only get better by trying and failing. The goal isn't to lose, but to eventually win rather than choosing not to fight at all.

    The Mhaldor-Targ war (to hit Armali's point) isn't even a remotely reasonable comparison given the stakes of it. Most factions do not act that way normally. It's like dueling. If you never lose, you'll never become the best.

    I think Crusades should have a 24-hour announcement beforehand rather than 3, though, to encourage more participation, and that non-order members should be able to both get to Nish and subvert essence and give it to a god.

    Xias
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 3,217Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reading the first couple bullet points, all I can think of is a moba. Lol

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

«1345
Sign In to Comment.