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Who Will be Playing "Starmourn" from IRE?

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  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 27
    MKO started with like... 70 players average when it came out. Within a year it got to average 30. Then 10-20 if you were on its peak hour during its maturity (mature as you can get for a 'beta' three years in.') What drove it into the ground was not enough content, unpolished content on release, and inactive gods and lack of Rp.

    If Tecton and Sarapis can avoid that. They'll do fine as Starmourn matures. It is never a question how it'll get players at the start, more like... can they retain players after a year.

    *oh yeah. Pvp community was kinda riffed with tons of artie players. That also put off new players trying to get into pvp*
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • CailinCailin Posts: 60Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I wonder if IRE muds could be marketed to new players as a way to learn to code. There'd have to be a very good tutorial written, of course-- it's a bit overwhelming as is-- but I'm just saying, I knew very little about coding when I started. I still know very little, but I know a good deal more than I did, and it was a lot of fun to learn!
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 480Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I love being able to code for it.  It's entertaining seeing your efforts come to fruition
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    CailinBann
  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Mudding is not a great place to learn how to code. Done it for years since high school and I never found an area where Lua (used in Mudlet) was applicable and the only reason Lua programming was tolerable was cause I had some experience before I got into mudding. It's possible to make a MUSH system with Python, but there is little information and support on how to do it unless you already have experience. 

    Tldr: wouldn't advertise 'learn how to Code' to new players using third party clients like Mudlet or MUSH. Knew people who tried to learn lua via Mudlet and advertise it as experience, and prospects weren't good for them.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 480Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 27
    It's not Lua itself that's useful, it's learning how to debug things, how to use data structures and algorithms, things that are more generally translatable to all languages.  You know, stuff you learn in college or through experience
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    SenaAlaskar
  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 27
    Yeah, but is a kid with no experience jumping into lua as a first language and with just Mudlet going to understand that he or she is going to learn those concepts without someone guiding them?

    There's not much support for lua compared to something like Python, where they can watch hundreds of tutorials explaining these concepts or find interactive websites that can walk them through.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 3,917Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dude what? The main game client is based on JavaScript which is one of the most marketable languages to know.

    You don't need to know lua unless you're using mudlet. If you use the main game client you're absolutely learning a tangible skill.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Yes, I agree with Javascript. That's why I suggest not using Mudlet to market the game for 'learn to Code. 
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 3,917Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    IRE has always tried to push people to use their own client, not outside sources. They wouldn't advertise Mudlet lol


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I've started the same way by learning how to debug, maintaining, modifying, and taking apart scripts. But not everyone is the same and some people need a more structured course to learn and then go apply it to mudding. 

    A lot of people I've known and tried to help out throughout the years usually give up or had to take classes until it clicked for them. 

    To me, if results aren't constant for producing coders via mudding alone. Then I can't really recommend it as a best practice to learning how to code.

    I'm just trying to say... not all people are the same and can follow the same thought process that helped us learned to code in the mudding community. It's just too optimistic to just say that everyone can learn to code via playing this game.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • VallieVallie Posts: 245Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 27
    I don't think it'd make much sense to market it as a way to learn coding - for one thing, learning 'coding' doesn't really make any sense, it's way, way more than just 'i can make a do b when it sees c'. Even in the context of Lua vs. Javascript - people don't care if you 'know' js, because what they actually care about is if you can use js to help them build their product. Knowing how to string a few things together in js is different from knowing how to actually solve a problem, the benefits for using one solution over another, etc. On top of that, you don't even really 'know' js by playing with it for a few years, and you certainly won't know any of the frameworks that are such a big part of production level js.

    It'd kinda be snake-oil-y, so I think it's better to just let people ask and play with things as they already do, rather than try to shine up something that isn't there :). Sure, it can get you interested in writing code, but it's a far cry from making yourself marketable, so it shouldn't pretend to be that. It's like that really hot girl from high school that makes you start to question things, but then years later after some experience you move forward with someone more serious.

    I think Starmourn will be fun to explore - two main things keeping me skeptical are the playerbase issues already mentioned, and if I really have time to play a second MUD. The experience would really have to provide something that Achaea doesn't.


    LucianusShirszae
  • DevranDevran Posts: 395Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    Look, let's not act like this isn't the 'writing on the wall' move. I'm not faulting anyone on IRE side, business sustainability has to be number 1 priority.

    The game isn't being released because we have a large player base. It's not releasing because they think they're going to gut Aardwolf or something. Every IRE across the board is losing people, with a very real new player acquisition issue. You're not recruiting people to a MUD in 2017, and those you do end up recruiting will not be in the hundreds.

    From my perspective, it seems more of a 'last hurrah' than anything else. MKO is gone, Imperian and Lusternia aren't fielding many people, Aetolia is the strongest non Achaea game and it's peak is like 50-60 people? Achaea boomed because of retirement, but our pop has been pretty consistently going down again after the novelty wore off. Maybe just my opinion, but it seems that way.

    The games are flagging, so it makes sense to do something to re energize your player base. 

    My my concern is the underlying problem won't be addressed, which is the payment model. It's atrocious in comparison to every entertainment option that is available in 2017 and going forward. It was mentioned to me we tried Reddit once, so I looked for that post. Just reams of people complaining about the payment model.

    I truly hope Starmourn is different. As much interest in coding as there is these days, I couldn't picture a better place to dip into coding for results than a MUD. Could absolutely play that up, while also offering easy ways to circumvent the 'need' to code. This does nothing if the expectation is for every person to habitually buy things, that are vastly overpriced in relation to entertainment options elsewhere.

    Im more than happy to spend a bit on the monthly Elite, and any DLC-esque things 2-3 times a year. I'm no longer interested in paying $150 for a text sword/laser/ship/hyperdrive or whatever. 

    Thats is my concern for the new game.
    Some excellent points here, and I'd like to share my thoughts.

    We all know IRE has said they wont do another fantasy themed MUD. This is unfortunately bad for me, as I would pay through the nose for a new world where everybody is reset to zero, no retirement credits permitted but pretty much the same systems. Herb/Potion/Salve cures, Credits->Lessons and Artifacts for the same prices.

    I can completely understand why some people are not interested in 'spending $150 for a text sword/laser/ship/subscription to Jinsun's newsletter. However, I absolutely would if it was in a world that was starting over again.

    Like, perfect world for me? Achaea gets reset, right back to the beginning. I mean, of course it's not possible due to legality and the fact that a lot of people would just quit, but we're talking my hypothetical scenario and not a real suggestion. However, this is only the best choice because it's easier to comprehend than IRE making a new fantasy based world with another 15 or so new classes that haven't been done before (how hard would that be, right? I mean even Imperian was a carbon copy of Achaean classes in the beginning before they went their own way)

    As far as Starmourn goes? I don't know. I like sci fi stuff, but I don't know how much I'd like to play it in a MUD. I like swords and magic and demons and junk. I'm going to have to try it and see before I can commit. One thing to consider though is I like how the current IRE games are built in regards to combat and curing and everything. I own every Raymond Feist book there is and was extremely excited for Midkemia Online, but I absolutely -hated- the combat system and I was really unhappy with the class system also, so I didn't play it. That may happen with Starmourn. Who knows.

    Lastly, touching on @Atalkez's statement on how it makes sense to come out with it to re-energize a flagging population, I agree. I just wonder how smart it is considering the fact their success has been based on a FANTASY theme. Not everybody who likes dragons and murderous @Dunn rampages also like lasers and science stuff.
  • CailinCailin Posts: 60Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Vallie said:
    people don't care if you 'know' js, because what they actually care about is if you can use js to help them build their product.

    Eh, I think my idea was misunderstood. I wasn't talking about professional, can-put-this-on-my-resume coding. I was talking about "I always wanted to learn how to code but never got around to it, looks like fun" (<-- this is me) or "I want my kids to learn how to code but I don't know how to teach them." There are several things being made to teach kids how to code; it's getting to be a popular thing. And yeah, this is maybe a bit advanced, but it's not too hard for high schoolers. "Learn to code and play a game at the same time." IF if if it had a good tutorial. 
    Yeah yeah, I know, it's just a wild idea. Silly, even, I guess. 

  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I doubt we'd price credits differently for Starmourn. The best hope is that they don't start doing those  monthly wheel/talisman/promo arties thing right off the bat. Lusty was one of the first with that model and I left it for Achaea because of that.

    Now that Achaea has been practicing it like it is the norm for all IRE games. I kinda worry now.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,704Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's true, not every likes dragons and swords is going to like the sci-fi theme, but I think that's the point.

    Instead of making much of a sameness high fantasy setting to dilute their fantasy loving player base with a new thematic genre they may actually have a have to draw in new people. The people who live guns and lazers, but dragons and swords don't quite float their boat/aethervessel.
    CailinShirszae
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 3,917Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lucianus said:
    I doubt we'd price credits differently for Starmourn. The best hope is that they don't start doing those  monthly wheel/talisman/promo arties thing right off the bat. Lusty was one of the first with that model and I left it for Achaea because of that.

    Now that Achaea has been practicing it like it is the norm for all IRE games. I kinda worry now.
    If the pay scale is the same, you may be one of the only 'whales' to move over and be okay with it.

    Antonius said he wouldn't, I wouldn't, Nazihk wouldn't, Farrah wouldn't. Dochitha? Doubtful. Mindshell? I dunno, maybe. 

    I don't see the game being successful with the same system on display across the other games.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    LucianusNazihk
  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Making money by relying on whales to support the game is detrimental to growth too. Cause it doesn't really support the growth of getting new blood.

    I do remember a little Q/A about Starmourn with Sarapis on MKO forum when players were asking about whether or not they could wait for Starmourn and use their 75%-100% credit refund to start over. Sarapis surprisingly said that chances of using retirement credits on Starmourn were pretty low. Cause it would hurt new players who could be completely new to IRE and are interested in the sci fi genre 
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,036Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis has said several times they are coming up with a brand new system that doesn't involve credits.

    LucianusAtalkezShirszaeBann
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,070Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    StarCredits™
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    TysandrBann
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 3,917Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 28
    Lucianus said:
    Making money by relying on whales to support the game is detrimental to growth too. Cause it doesn't really support the growth of getting new blood.

    I do remember a little Q/A about Starmourn with Sarapis on MKO forum when players were asking about whether or not they could wait for Starmourn and use their 75%-100% credit refund to start over. Sarapis surprisingly said that chances of using retirement credits on Starmourn were pretty low. Cause it would hurt new players who could be completely new to IRE and are interested in the sci fi genre 
    Please, IRE persists because of the big people, if they didn't then talismans would never have became what they are. You think a new player has a chance to complete Suremek'neina? No way. 

    They cater to their big spenders, because that's what model keeps the games alive. They don't care about joe noob buying his no brainer as much as they care about the big people taking part in the wheel promotions. You're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise. Sarapis has said himself they gave up the new player acquisition fight long ago, unfortunately.

    Even if the system doesn't change, allowing retirement would be a terrible idea, without question. Makes sense to not allow it, even more so if the system does change dramatically.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Caer WitrinPosts: 2,741Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Sarapis has said several times they are coming up with a brand new system that doesn't involve credits.
    If he said that, I genuinely did not know, and I am very glad to hear it.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

    image

    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Venmara
  • LucianusLucianus Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Shirszae said:
    Cooper said:
    Sarapis has said several times they are coming up with a brand new system that doesn't involve credits.
    If he said that, I genuinely did not know, and I am very glad to hear it.
    but not certain if it's just a new system that will cost about the same as credits when everything is calculated....

    If it's a completely new system, would explain why they said they coded the game from scratch. Would be great if it was the start of a new generation of IRE games on a completely different codebase.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
    Shirszae
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 668Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Here's my thing: If I can play it at a competitive level for ~$15-25/month with occasional DLCesque purchases(that are not required to be competitive), I am so in. It is totally my shit and it sounds awesome.

    Past that? Meh. I no longer have the money or the poor judgment required to throw $$$$$ at textswords.
    AtalkezLucianusAchilles
  • VallieVallie Posts: 245Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 28
    Cailin said:
    Vallie said:
    people don't care if you 'know' js, because what they actually care about is if you can use js to help them build their product.

    Eh, I think my idea was misunderstood. I wasn't talking about professional, can-put-this-on-my-resume coding. I was talking about "I always wanted to learn how to code but never got around to it, looks like fun" (<-- this is me) or "I want my kids to learn how to code but I don't know how to teach them." There are several things being made to teach kids how to code; it's getting to be a popular thing. And yeah, this is maybe a bit advanced, but it's not too hard for high schoolers. "Learn to code and play a game at the same time." IF if if it had a good tutorial. 
    Yeah yeah, I know, it's just a wild idea. Silly, even, I guess. 

    My point was actually to steer this more towards what you're saying here - it's a fun way to learn stuff if you feel inclined, but it wouldn't be a good idea to try and market it as a way to learn code. Don't want to make promises that you can't keep!

    Gotta aggree with @Atalkez too - whales are a pretty big consideration about income for microtransactions. Growth is important - but retention is too.

    @Nazihk - if that's the model I'd be a lot more inclined. Though maybe at that point I should just get myself sucked back into WoW >_>
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,858Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No way I am starting any other game with the same business model achaea.
    image
    SobriquetCaelanTysandr
  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 663Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Rangor said:
    No way I am starting any other game with the same business model achaea.
    No f'ing way

    BannAhmetTysandr
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