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Talisman Exchange System

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  • KietKiet Posts: 2,243Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Talismans are cool when they're fun utility or convenience. They're not so cool when they're essential more pay to win that's even pricier than usual and hard to find. I know it's hard to keep designing cool things that don't give combat advantage, but someone that's amassed all the combat advantage talismans would be at an absurd advantage over someone who hasn't.
    Sobriquet
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,798Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I do not understand your fractions.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Scarcity balancing is like, a 90's thing. It's 2017. You don't balance around scarcity anymore, not if you have any intention of actually growing the playerbase of your game.

    Says a lot if you think about it.
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 786Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    I do not understand your fractions.
    If I have 4 out of 4 pieces, I have a whole talisman and it is cool.

    I I have 3 out of 4 pieces, I have a lot of credits tied up in a pile of useless shit.
    SobriquetSiduriTitonus
  • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,438Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Scarcity balancing is like, a 90's thing. It's 2017. You don't balance around scarcity anymore, not if you have any intention of actually growing the playerbase of your game.

    Says a lot if you think about it.
    As a dungeon master, I used to spend hundreds and hundreds in the damn WotC miniature lines, hoping to get enough minion minis to run my encounters. The scarcity system meant that even goblins were hard to come by (but I had hundreds of wood elf barbarians though...)

    Then I got smart, bought a projector and set up a virtual tabletop on my computer which now displays in glorious colours on my wall, and in which I can make my own virtual minis using pinteresty goodness.

    All that to say, scarcity will earn you funds over a certain period, but once your customers decide they've had enough of gambling, you won't be seeing their coin again.

    image
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna bePosts: 3,350Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd personally like to see some sort of tier system. Dummies are the lowest tier. Things like the suremekh'neina and whisperstone are the highest tier. If you can't find a piece of your set, you can trade two pieces for another piece of the same tier, i.e. two suremekh'neina pieces for a whisperstone core or whathaveyou. It'd come with its own set of issues, but I think it'd be better than it is now. :confounded:
    Huh. Neat.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,147Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ajoc has traded the level 1 piece 'The enchantment for suremekh'neina' to you.

    You quickly assemble Suremekh'neina.

    /thread


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    DochithaUtianimaSiduriCooper
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,624Administrator Achaean staff
    Items being rare is not the same as balancing by scarcity. Going to nip that in the bud right now: we never assume only a few people will have the items, because we know we will be reusing talisman sets and the number of people with those items is only ever going to go up. We are trying to get into a better rotation with the sets so they come around more often, but part of it is gauging demand. Most people don't like some of the sets so you rarely see them in promotions. If we get a request for the less desirable sets we sometimes work them in somewhere, but that's generally why you don't see the historical set, for example.
    ExelethrilAustereSiduriUtianima
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:
    Items being rare is not the same as balancing by scarcity. Going to nip that in the bud right now: we never assume only a few people will have the items, because we know we will be reusing talisman sets and the number of people with those items is only ever going to go up. We are trying to get into a better rotation with the sets so they come around more often, but part of it is gauging demand. Most people don't like some of the sets so you rarely see them in promotions. If we get a request for the less desirable sets we sometimes work them in somewhere, but that's generally why you don't see the historical set, for example.
    I don't really believe this, sorry.

    Maybe you didn't actively design them with scarcity in mind, but any number of the talisman arties introduced into the game that have significant combat implication (crucible, l3 regen, l2 magi robes) would dramatically alter the combat meta for every level of engagement if they were present in greater quantities than they currently were. Very few outright purchasable artefacts lend the level of advantage in certain situations that talisman artefacts do for the most part. The thing that comes closest is maybe veils, and they're already cancer in their own right.

    Give everybody above a certain threshold a crucible or rev's guise and see how things go for a week or two.
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,624Administrator Achaean staff
    You don't need to believe it - I'm not hear to convince you. I'm stating our stance when it comes to the design process, and that the number of created talismans and their current rate of growth is pretty clear cut: major talismans will be far less rare than most artefacts long term (and short term in some cases, crucibles being among those). This isn't a blanket statement I'm simply making. It has significant basis in hard numbers and we don't add talismans if we're not comfortable with that fact.
    TysandrMorthifUtianima
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 12
    Why would they be less rare? I don't particularly grasp how an item with gated assembly requirements locked behind promotional purchases would be less rare than something that is immediately purchasable at any time, especially when you directly control the rate at which these artefacts enter circulation. If anything, it seems like a prime excuse to introduce elements of scarcity-oriented design in these items - the l2 magi robes are a fine example. I doubt you'd be okay with that item present as a full purchase given how strongly it defends against willpower bleed strategies and absolve killpaths.

    I can understand that from the perspective of the Death sets perhaps (and to be honest, they seemed to come out at the most acceptable rate of all the talisman sets by far), but pretty much every set after that has been massively skewed towards only a select few people who end up able to complete them.

    I don't know, this doesn't really line up to me. Creating them with exclusive mechanics that are strong in light of the fact that they require assembly and the effort associated with that seemed to be a pretty standard element of the Talisman system as a whole, but now you're saying that you project talisman arties to be more common than standard ones to begin with over time? Why not just release them as standard artefacts if that's the case?

    You obviously don't need to justify your choices to me as an individual, but given that a relatively high number of people who are presumably big spenders and thus your direct beneficiaries and prime income source share similar concerns to me may suggest that better explanation of your plans with Talisman sets going forward may be something you want to consider.
    Zahan
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,624Administrator Achaean staff

    All the major sets actually have the same general rarity distribution. For instance, a deaths call piece has the same rarity as a piece of the robes of the grand magi. The cities set is the only one that is really off here a little because due to being a smaller set it has the multiple piece requirement in some cases. But Black Wave is pretty much equivalent to death, etc. Extreme rarity sets are a myth: in most cases its more about how many talismans are in a set (and hence the total contained pieces) than it is about deviations in rarity when it comes to getting the pieces that you want.

    L2 magi robes: these actually did get released as a full item (announce 4195). The playerbase reaction convinced us to pull them and refund the people who purchased them. We learned our lesson!

    As for why they will become more common, its because though some people struggle, some people drop $40 and roll lucky and pull a 1k credit item. Its a two way thing and that is why they are way more popular among small spenders than standard artefacts - the chance to win big is quite real. Even pulling half of an expensive artefact for comparitively cheap is a massive deal to a lot of people.

  • SenaSena Posts: 3,850Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    the l2 magi robes are a fine example. I doubt you'd be okay with that item present as a full purchase given how strongly it defends against willpower bleed strategies and absolve killpaths.
    They did release the robes for general sale (priced at 2500cr), right after the Reckoning. They only pulled it because of player complaints (mostly related to the fact that it was specifically stated that they wouldn't immediately make it available).
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 12
    Assuming all pieces really do have actual equivalent drop rate within the talisman piece pool, it would be interesting to see what the effective chance is of completing an X piece talisman artefact out of a given set and seeing how that correlates to how many of the artefact actually exist in the game. I imagine lots of them are segmented up across people who invest but don't capitalize on the value of the pieces, or simply don't know.

    When I say actual, I mean that anything involving random number generators of any kind invariably has some guff bullshit associated with it somewhere down the line that reveals itself in a sample size large enough. I've worked with enough of them to know. Not saying that you're lying about the drop chances or whatever.
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,624Administrator Achaean staff
    Drop rate is pretty much what we'd expect. There are some deviations, but nothing major.
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,624Administrator Achaean staff

    I do appreciate the input, by the way. My not here to convince you statement sounded far more dismissive on the reread - very much not intended that way.

    AntidasTysandrAustere
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I find it hard to swallow given my own experience with talisman pieces - I only got my whisperstone in the end because a dear friend managed to somehow secure the emitter for me when like 10 other people were also looking for that exact piece and none of the others, and then reading people's experiences with pulling dozens of dummy pieces out in one go (which makes sense if they're higher in the pool proportionally), but I know that you have no prerogative to lie about it or anything, so I guess I just have to accept that my perception on this doesn't match the reality of it.

    I'm still not a huge fan of locking exclusive mechanics behind talismans though. I feel like it limits their usage to a demographic that is far smaller than it should be overall (see crucibles and guise).
    Zahan
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,798Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How about instead of promos which you buy 100cr and get a talisman piece from the 'new' set! (Omg) whenever a talisman promo is trotted out every 100cr you get a single talisman piece cache? This cache can be opened for any set. That way you get people trying to get the new set, but also others trying to complete old ones.
    MorthifAnze
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,633Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    I really wish that talismans had just stayed within the original (stated) ideal for the system.

    Oh well.
    Having bashed up the entire dragon and azatlan sets, need another set on which to work. Make it so, Number 1!

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    YselaTorinn
  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,244Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    I doubt you'd be okay with that item present as a full purchase given how strongly it defends against willpower bleed strategies and absolve killpaths.
    It's a one third reduction on willpower costs, and as far as I know "willpower bleed" strategies aren't something that's ever been considered a primary kill route. If your only option is to run your opponent out of willpower it suggests one of three things: your offense is severely lacking in comparison to your opponent's defense, your opponent is fighting extremely defensively, or there's an issue with class balance that needs to be addressed. Not even sure what a reduction on willpower costs has to do with absolve.


    FarrahDochitha
  • AlrenaAlrena Posts: 564Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Daeir said:
    I doubt you'd be okay with that item present as a full purchase given how strongly it defends against willpower bleed strategies and absolve killpaths.
    It's a one third reduction on willpower costs, and as far as I know "willpower bleed" strategies aren't something that's ever been considered a primary kill route. If your only option is to run your opponent out of willpower it suggests one of three things: your offense is severely lacking in comparison to your opponent's defense, your opponent is fighting extremely defensively, or there's an issue with class balance that needs to be addressed. Not even sure what a reduction on willpower costs has to do with absolve.


    Don't lvl2 robes also cut mana usage by a third? I know I certainly struggle a lot more against someone with those robes and lvl3 mana regen to get a  catharsis off.
    image
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That is what I was referring to re: absolve killpath - the mana reduction is kind of horseshit powerful on some classes, especially in something like dform which has absurdly high base costs to begin with that the robe significantly reduces.
  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,244Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The mana reduction comes from the level one version, though, which is available in the artefact shop in Delos... The level 2 version only adds the one third willpower cost reduction.
    TreyFarrahDochitha
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,546Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think any talismans have game breaking powers. They're about the same level as existing artefacts. Worse in some cases (still can't figure out the point of alabaster urn).
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,128Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I was all in for talismans even how rare they are, but this round with the ashstaff being ultimately rare and I had to fork out huge credits to convince a rare piece, and with such rarity the effects are subpar, I learned my lessons and changed side. Talismans system needs fixing...
  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 786Member @ - Epic Achaean
    The main bonus of the ash staff is that it functions as a L3 shikudo staff with some fancy bullshit for flavor. 

    If you already have the L3 staff then of course you aren't really going to benefit from it.
    Iniar
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