Cyrene

Daklore

I believe this thread has ran its course, look at all the de-railers. >P

Friztic

I think that it's a bit alarming that some people feel they need to act out just to get a reaction from others. In Cyrene, that kind of thing should more be left to the outsider. If you are instigating outside of your RP with the OOC intent to try to spur on more RP, then all you are doing is causing strife and adding to the 'unclear role' people talk about when they talk about Cyrene. You aren't playing your character and you should feel ashamed. Make an alt if your RP has gotten too boring for you, the rest of us are still having fun.

Maybe that'll cause some 'disagree's or some rants, but seriously, if you are starting crap just to stir up the pot, and you know that your character wouldn't/shouldn't do that RP-wise, you're doing it wrong.

Vayne

Some observations and comments from an outsider, take um or leave um:

I am going to have to agree with @Friztic here, @Nellaundra. If you are starting trouble in attempts to provoke some controversial roleplay, then I don't think you should be surprised our upset that someone would pull the "Respect card" on you since starting trouble for trouble's sake is pretty blatantly disrespectful to those around you.

There are definitely taboo topics in Cyrene that are pretty apparent to me as an outsider, it was even pointed out to my character during some organic conversation he had there by the troubadour aka admin direction, but that is expected when the city is in fact aligned with Good seeing they ban half a dozen Gods and their teachings. There is undeniably an acceptable range of topics in Cyrene that does help define who there are even if somewhat nebulously as the "Neutral-Good" city or whatever you wish to call it.

As for all this "Respect" business, again I am don't know exactly how it works out in Cyrene and have never played a Cyrenian but from this topic and my general experience it seems that people are using it in a Postmodern, subjectivist way as a weapon. The "believe what works for you and I will believe what works for me" attitude does not work when you have mandated banned religions and philosophies from the city. On a more personal level it becomes a shield from anyone having to do any critical thinking and taking to task their own world views to see if they are flawed or lacking which may contribute to the culture of apathy.  "Respect" as courtesy to your fellow citizens deriving from being a new  city consisting of a hodgepodge of rogues seems logical, but a postmodern "'everything goes" mentality will not work in Cyrene and should be scraped if you know what's good for you.

Hashan can get away with accepting everything because it is a more Libertarian society, you can believe what you want, you can argue, challenge, and converse over -any- topic freely in the more objective "marketplace of ideas." Perhap Cyrene should go back to its roots and really promote their peaceful isolationist ideals to try to carve out more of a niche, especially in light of the emerging more militant Good faction.

Nellaundra

@Vayne

That's the thing.  I don't get the "respect card" regardless of how bloody ridiculous Nell gets at times.  She's threatened people with death over the city channel and meant every word, tossed out thinly veiled insults, and generally made an ass out of herself.  It's only when the serious discussions start that it gets pulled.

Vayne

Well @Nellaundra, that goes back to the point that people do not want their personal peace challenged so they hide behind "respect." It is much easier to shoot down an argument than to actually defend a position while ignoring your more blatant threat since they do not have much bearing on the overall culture. It is unfortunate if that is the case.

Daklore

@Vayne is right about how respect, by and large, is used in Cyrene. YES, there are actually people in Cyrene that get by without ever needing, or coming close too, or even implying the respect card(outside of, "I respect your opinion", which I see as more of a polite, "oh god, go away already.")

I think part of the problem is how the Mojushai preach about respect, I've been to some of those lessons. I have actually been -flabbergasted- at the accepted material being used at those lessons. Accepted by ranking and what should be highly-respected Mojushai. That gets back to the city, and they never get called on it. OR, if the lesson is logically de-constructed and the flaws are pointed out, you have half the Mojushai jumping down your throat, or on a rare occassion the student actually acknowledges it ... then continues as if nothing has ever happened.

Respect in Cyrene has become the sword and shield of arguement, and because its constantly portrayed that way, everyone in turn begins to use it as that(or they use it as the OOC stop bothering my card.)

Also, @Nellaundra, pretty sure I remember you're a Warden now. That nonsense acidic verbiage won't be accepted ICly, not trying to forum-RP, but if you're going to RP a Warden, you'd better learn to curb it before a Knight actually takes notice and comes down on you. The Wardens aren't like the rest of Cyrene when it comes to internal matters. We don't have to coddle people and "be nice". Just a thought. >P

And on a lighter note: Yeah, Cyrene -is- neutral-good, we are leaning good unlike Hashan who is leaning neutral(although most of us from the outside see Hashan as Neutral leaning evil, that may be a stereotype you should try to resolve... I doubt it's limited to just my perception of Hashan.) Cyrene has our problems.... and Cyrene -might- be the retirement city. But... if you're really retiring from cities... you're going Rogue. Cyrene is -not- a good place to "retire" too, considering the drama people throw up, because of the respect card.

Thank the Garden the Wardens don't have Respect anywhere in their tenants. The closest to "Respect" we get are the Honour and Chivalry ethos. Phew.

Melodie

Ugh, Mojushai respect lessons.

Please just pile them into a bag and throw them out the window. -Please-.

Vayne

Daklore said:

@Vayne is right about how respect, by and large, is used in Cyrene. YES, there are actually people in Cyrene that get by without ever needing, or coming close too, or even implying the respect card(outside of, "I respect your opinion", which I see as more of a polite, "oh god, go away already.")

Well, respecting someone's opinion while still disagreeing with it is perfectly fine, that is the foundation for logical and civil argumentation. However, telling someone to show respect as a means to shut down their argument so as not to be required to give an account for your own position is cowardly, stifling, and just a plain old cop-out.

Daklore

Which is why it's a problem in Cyrene, and why respect as a city ideal/tenant/whatever needs to be phased out. We don't -need- it.

Iocun

Not quite sure what kinds of Mojushaine lessons are being referred to here, but often I get the feeling some people find those kinds of lessons especially stupid which I find the best.

I really don't get it when people say "respect is fine, but don't take it to the extreme of respecting enemies and stuff, that just makes it stupid". Taking things to the extreme is what gives ideologies a face. Focusing on lukewarm pragmatical approaches to ideologies is the truly bad thing. It ceases to be an ideology and becomes nothing but a nice little behaviour recommendation.

P.S. And yes, I know many respect lessons aren't good by any means. That's because it's an incredibly difficult requirement. You can't really come to visit them as a long-standing player and expect to see a first class lecture or debate. Why would you even do that...

Daklore

No, but when a long-standing player, who is also a ranking Mojushai, doesn't or won't step in and bring up why X is not a good idea, or why Y isn't what it means... there's a reason why the lessons have an open talk session.

When no one contradicts what was said, or challenges it, other people who are new to Cyrene, or new outright see that as what Respect is... and it just snowballs. That's the problem. When Pages are discussing the Warden ethos, they aren't expected to have a Knight's grasp on them. But the Hirdmaster is tasked with questioning their piece on each of the Ethos and nudging the student in the correct path. Not "oh, you're not really supposed to get it anyway, that's good enough."

I know, potatoes and pineapples, but yeah.

Iocun

Well, yeah, can't really comment on it since I don't know the situation discussed, which opinions were stated, etc., so I can't know whether what said novice-teacher said was "wrong" or "right" and whether it was approached appropriately (some of which might also have happened 1-on-1 between the teaching student and her/his teacher).

Not actually saying I'm fond of having that lesson requirement (I never wanted it, myself) - but reducing it to only elders might cause just as many people to go "how COULD they be teaching THAT!". The nature of the subject itself just makes it incredibly easy to point fingers and make snide remarks about "ridiculously stupid" lessons.

Obviously tough, there's going to be confusion when Cyrenians visit a Mojushaine respect lesson and expect a lesson on what "respect" means in Cyrene, rather than in the Mojushai. Which is something completely different. It does have a rather defined meaning in the Mojushai, whereas in Cyrene it's mostly the "common sense" definition without much more to that.

Daklore

Or just phase it out if it's that problematic? I mean, there's a challenge, and then there's just downright stupid difficult. They aren't the same thing. >P

And I can't quote any specific incidents, but I have been at lessons where I've challenged the idea of respect and the... laoshi is it? in charge kind of just dismissed me to make their student feel better and things continued as if nothing had happened. Again, you'd have to take my word on that, I don't log anything. But, no one, and no house, is perfect, but Respect in Cyrene(and perhaps by extent the Mojushai) has overstayed its visit and I personally believe both need to move on and put respect as an outlined tenant into the history books.

It's not like life in Cyrene would change drastically.

Iocun

Never found it to be needed, yes, as it's sort of implied by other more explicit ideals anyways. That's why I said I never asked for it to be taught etc. But neither do I understand all the huge levels of aggravation that are building up around it. People get upset way too easily!

Daklore

Iocun's camel has zero fu-cares to give. *sage*

What? We needed something silly to break up the.. whatever I've been posting is >P

Idelisa

Woah. So how bout that weather? We sure are having a lot of it.

Synbios

Kaden said:

I'm thinking flowerpot. A shrubbery of a flowerpot in a flowerpot. -nod-

Yo @Carmain, I heard you like flowerpots, so I put a flowerpot(shrubbery) in a flowerpot, so you can rustle while you rustle.

Aerek

Friztic said:

I think that it's a bit alarming that some people feel they need to act out just to get a reaction from others. In Cyrene, that kind of thing should more be left to the outsider. If you are instigating outside of your RP with the OOC intent to try to spur on more RP, then all you are doing is causing strife and adding to the 'unclear role' people talk about when they talk about Cyrene. You aren't playing your character and you should feel ashamed. Make an alt if your RP has gotten too boring for you, the rest of us are still having fun. Maybe that'll cause some 'disagree's or some rants, but seriously, ...if you are starting crap just to stir up the pot, and you know that your character wouldn't/shouldn't do that RP-wise, you're doing it wrong.

If you break character to stir up some excitement, then I agree that's bad roleplay, but I don't remember anyone saying that in this thread. If you present yourself as a catalyst for roleplay/controversy by sticking to your established role and accepting whatever consequences that might entail, however, then I'd say that's the very paragon of good roleplay. The individuals and organizations that we think of as RP "greats" (Rho/Silas, the Nihilists, and the stereotype of Mhaldor, for examples) usually cement themselves into our minds by presenting opposition to someone or something and sticking to their guns, even when it gets rough. The best antagonists know how to do this in ways that is fair and productive for both sides.

Things get stagnant without a good rival or antagonist to keep you thinking, working, and improving. That goes for houses and cities as much as individuals, and it goes for internal interaction just as much as external interaction. There are absolutely good and bad ways to be that catalyst and the onus is on the antagonist to make sure he or she is rocking the boat constructively, but disagreements that are open and make orgs come together and work out those differences actually build and strengthen an org's identity, not weaken it.

Jamethiel

I'm the current Minister of Cultural Affairs and I'm Cyrenian through and through.

I'm also Aegean through and through.

On the real life weekend, one of my aides and I held a service of remembrance, hope and faith at the Ornate Shrine in Cyrene, attended by many Cyrenians and many Refugees. Starting off with a prayer to War in Cyrene, war as a means to hope even in defeat, we heard so many diverse voices that clearly indicated that Cyrenians do actually understand what Cyrene stands for.

Finishing with a reminder that the city was established as a place as a harbour away from the endless War between Shallam and Ashtan, many of the attendees thanked Cyrene for hosting the service. We can talk and talk and talk about what Cyrene is, complain and complain and complain about why Cyrene isn't what we would like it to be.

And trust me, as the city's Minister of Cultural Affairs it can be fairly difficult to figure out what the city wants. Everyone wants similar but sometimes very different things, a problem I suspect is not just Cyrenian. However, when we do hit on an event that means something to the city - the city that is my home - we do it well.

Being Cyrenian is far more than academic words traded in an out of character forum. Being Cyrenian is something that your character, or you, must truly be a part of. It's an immersion that cannot be described, dissected or placed into some easy "this is what it means to be Cyrenian" box. I've read all these posts and yes, sometimes Cyrene and its way of working can drive me to distraction.

But that's part of being part of a community. Any community.

Being Cyrenian, being Cyrene is something that you are. It is like faith.

Try as you might, you won't capture its essence in just words, pictures, sights and sounds. Cyrene is more than the sum of them.

Nellaundra

Question.

Who ever said that I was acting in an OOC manner?  Nell's -always- been argumentative and antagonistic.  Some of the best relationships she has were started based in arguments.  Yes, she acts out but there's always a rhyme or reason to it.  She personally enjoys seeing how far the line can be pushed without getting in trouble (much like a Jester, honestly)

Arlanda

The thing is many think that the ethos of a Cyrenian house represent that of Cyrene. I do not know about every other Cyrenian House but that of the Mojushai aren't an exact fit with that of Cyrene which explains why there has been disagreements between the city and the house since a long long time ago, albeit now everybody just doesn't want to make a big fuss out of things and let life go on. Opening the can of worms and causing all the house-city arguments is going to create loads of havoc

Lisbethae

@ Nellaundra 

When there is deadly silence after you speak, that is Cyrene saying to shut up. It's subtle, I guess, but now that you know it, watch for it, you'll be amazed at how often it is used. Also, you've been talked to many times about how you interact, by Mojushai, by the city government. How do I know, I talked to you about it and was in the Senate clan to hear how a city intervention went. At this point, I'd guess lots of people have given up.

RE: Apathy

As to apathy - I think it could start at the House level, that Houses should push their members to participate in city things. I know that when Lis was young, frequently we were urged on to participate and make a good showing for the Mojushai. Another laissez-faire faction took over and that was dropped and even discouraged. (It's not humble to require someone to do anything, what poppycock.) That was just about the time there were no Ty Beirdd to speak of and both other Houses had their own dramas going on. 

Also, I don't think it helps that each House has a particular personality and your choice is to join no house if you want to stay the class you are if you don't mesh with the House Ethos. I think it is sad that there are classes in Cyrene that can't ever join a House. 

People participate when they are shown it is fun to participate. Sometimes you have to take your kid to the activity so they can see it is fun.

Even the last two BluFests have been bombs, because there's no reason for people to participate. We used to have House and Individual Trophies for participation and winning the most. It's a bear to keep track of, but it is fun in the end.

We need to get more participation things going. Start up the Clean Cyrene project or something...anything to encourage people to get off their text butts.

Daklore

I remember my first blufest... that was a blast. Well, aside from Ashtan or Mhaldor(or both, I forget) raiding the parade procession event thing we tried to do. For no reason other than they could.

Good times... good times.

Verrucht

Nellaundra said:

She personally enjoys seeing how far the line can be pushed without getting in trouble (much like a Jester, honestly)

Honestly, when I know you're saying something just to prompt a reaction or get a rise, I try to ignore it unless you have crossed a serious line. There's no point in giving people the reaction they want if it's only going to encourage them.

Nim

I agree with most of what @Daeir just said, except I'd like to note a few divergences in our opinions.

First, reprimands can be interaction, and they can be very positive interaction even if the character receiving them might not always like them. I'm told that Melodie is amazing at this, though I've never suffered one first-hand.

And second, the citizenry doesn't really have to goad people into responding. The leadership is actually really good about responding in general. This doesn't necessarily make it any better to ignore people when they act out of line. If people actually are playing the respect card in arguments, but completely dropping it when @Nellaundra actually is out of line, that's a serious issue that ought to be addressed.

Also, as a completely irrelevant point, I realized something last night (okay, I realized it a long time ago, but I only recently thought of it again). If anyone thinks that Cyrene is still all about baked goods, they're quite inaccurate. That hasn't been the case since I joined Cyrene (15 IG years ago, however many months that is IRL), though it sounded like they were phasing it out around the time I joined, or a bit prior to it. Now, it's all about the rum.

Selira

I'll keep mine short and simple:

Much of Cyrene is valuing 'respect' over dignity, and that is what I see as the core problem. An Enlightenment understanding of the inherent rights of beings is what I would say the City needs to refocus on - but that always included duty, as well.

Daklore

Daeir said:

Verrucht said:

Nellaundra said:

She personally enjoys seeing how far the line can be pushed without getting in trouble (much like a Jester, honestly)

Honestly, when I know you're saying something just to prompt a reaction or get a rise, I try to ignore it unless you have crossed a serious line. There's no point in giving people the reaction they want if it's only going to encourage them.

That's half the problem. If your citizenry has to literally goad people into getting responses out of them, something is terribly, terribly wrong. It's even worse when you ignore that goading since that is basically a person screaming out to start some interaction.

I disagree. They don't have to -goad- people into getting responses. There's a difference between them wanting someone to interact with them, and the other person/people not wanting too, and them simply just being attention whores(can we say that?). I am one of the people that doesn't really much care to interact. This is partly an ooc problem that bleeds ic, I am simply not a social creature. I will respond when required, but I rarely initiate conversation or RP.

If you have to scream and act out to get RP, then you're just an attention whore. It doesn't matter what kind of reaction you get, as long as you get one, you're happy. A real RP'er won't have to whine and scream like a petulant child, or completely break their character to roleplay with someone. They simply find a way to make small talk, which may go nowhere. I would assume this is how @Amunet would go about it, and I hear people saying she's a pretty good(if not great) RP'er. Look at @Delphinus. He doesn't whine and scream like a little kid, he gets RP. @Verrucht gets RP, @Melodie gets RP, @Imaji gets RP, @Rangor gets RP, I bet @Penwize could get RP if he wanted too without having to break his character.

You don't -need- to goad people, or throw yourself at them, or throw a fit to get RP in Cyrene. You have to do this to get attention simply because you -want- attention.

Those of us who realize this, simply don't respond and give them the attention they want. Or if you're a Warden, you'll get yelled at, disfavoured, and eventually kicked out if you continue to do this. Might even be essays and such involved.

Velyse

Is it really fair to say that the city is "completely dropping it" when Nella says things that are out of line, given that she's been given a talking to? If she's saying things that are clearly out of line and deserving a reaction, and has been talked to repeatedly with no improvement, it seems like they're not saying anything because the next step is to start taking serious action. I've seen Nella say some pretty rude and callous things, but it's never been anything that warrants severe city action. It's more along the lines of stuff at individuals (like passive aggressive comments directed at person X), that is just going to make those individuals dislike her and want to avoid her because she's insulting them. It's not like she's going around preaching Evil in the streets.

Edit: As an example, I think the worst thing I've seen Nella say was when she said Cyrene's leadership is just as bad/corrupt/whatever as Mhaldor's over the city channel. People also said that was a ridiculous thing to say, and pretty much dismissed it as absurd because she didn't really offer any reasons why but rather left it at that. It's possible, @Nellaundra, that people are telling you to stuff it when you're serious and not responding to the outrageous things you say because no one can tell when you're being serious and when you're trying to get attention, so when you start acting like that on serious topics they quash it before it gets out of hand. Sort of like the boy who cried wolf, only for being rude?

Nellaundra

Velyse said:

Is it really fair to say that the city is "completely dropping it" when Nella says things that are out of line, given that she's been given a talking to? If she's saying things that are clearly out of line and deserving a reaction, and has been talked to repeatedly with no improvement, it seems like they're not saying anything because the next step is to start taking serious action. I've seen Nella say some pretty rude and callous things, but it's never been anything that warrants severe city action. It's more along the lines of stuff at individuals (like passive aggressive comments directed at person X), that is just going to make those individuals dislike her and want to avoid her because she's insulting them. It's not like she's going around preaching Evil in the streets.

Nell's actually stopped all of her "serious" issues a -very- long time ago.  She hasn't had a talking to in probably 15 ingame years.  The most recent she got was Verrucht telling her not to use "X down to fun" when they died to misadventure.

Otherwise, she's ignored except for the occasional disrespect card whenever a debate shows up.

Velyse

@Nellaundra I just edited my post real quick to add some additional information Looks like you got a post in pretty quick! I remember people calling you out when you said that the leadership of Cyrene was just as bad/corrupt as Mhaldor over CT, and that wasn't all that long ago. Maybe within the past month or two? Definitely not beyond the past 15 IG years -- I haven't even been playing that long. I also remember you not actually stating why you thought that, just that you did, so the topic got dropped because it would have just devolved into pointless bickering over baseless claims.