Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Curative plant overharvesting issues

DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
After having played a forestal character for a grand total of a month, I've noticed a few things which are really beginning to irritate me surrounding the whole groves and harvesting business.

Foremost, overharvesting. It's driving me nuts. Hunting for the quiet spots where you can find abundant plantlife is nice and adds a little touch to the game and all, but stuff like ginseng, ginger and myrrh (practically everything that grows in the actual forests) is rarely above sparse, if ever. I've scoured every overworld forest back to front and lastharvest brings up the same four or five names every time. There is no penalty for overharvesting other than decreasing the supply for other players which in turn ramps up the price on said herbs, so for people with large herb stacks that they intend to sell, deliberately overharvesting for a week or two can be a viable method of driving up their profit margins.

This is completely against the forestal ethos and for sure, the five or so names I see come from grandfathered forestals located in cities other than Eleusis. What I would like to see is consequences for fully depleting a room of its plantlife, which I will describe below.

Each plant-bearing room should have a base fertility level which is individually determined by its geographical location (as in some plants will thrive better in certain areas, such as elm in darkwood forests and so forth). Each plant growing in the room draws from this base fertility level to determine both its rate of growth and its yield. Harvesting from a plant in this room will slightly affect the fertility level temporarily if the plant is abundant or above, but will affect the fertility level significantly larger and for significantly longer. Continual overharvesting will permanently decrease the room's base fertility level, and if it reaches 0, the room takes on an exterminated-esque effect where all life is inhibited from growing in it for several real life days unless it is attended to by forestals.

When a room is psuedo-exterminated by overharvesting, Oakstone will be sent a report on the primary offenders of the overharvesting for that particular area, so that they may mete out punishment appropriately. This is hardly an ideal solution (since Oakstone is kinda ehhh to begin with anyway), but there absolutely needs to be some form of consequence between simple diminishing in supply and convenience. Feel free to suggest alternatives.

Stemming from this, I would like to see a Groves ability added that prevents anyone who does not have use of the grove from harvesting the plantlife in your grove beyond a certain growth level. I find the concept of someone overharvesting another's grove extremely rude given the nature of the bond between a forestal and his grove, and have even considered holding people accountable for doing so IC. That is another matter entirely, but I would like to see some sort of imposable restriction on randoms harvesting from your true grove, whether it is unified or not.

To compensate for the decreased supply that this will inevitably produce in the short term, I would also like to see an ability in Groves to especially care for and nurture the plant life in your grove, speeding its growth rate up by several orders of magnitude. Like grove seal, this would be a daily thing, and could even include using other plants not from your grove's environment as fertilizer for your plants, or something of that ilk.

Basically, overharvesting forestals should be punished and forestals should actually have to take care of the damned forests like their premise suggests.
SylvanceAlysseaEilonaCooperSenaRangorRheveDelphinusVincenzioTreySherazadWysteriaEphramOceana
«1

Comments

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Doesn't have to be Oakstone, like I said. There does need to be some penalty for it, though. Maybe angry owls fly out of the forests and start pecking at your eyes or something. Maybe your bee swarm randomly turns on you. I don't know.
    Rangor
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Daeir said:
    After having played a forestal character for a grand total of a month, I've noticed a few things which are really beginning to irritate me surrounding the whole groves and harvesting business.

    Foremost, overharvesting. It's driving me nuts. Hunting for the quiet spots where you can find abundant plantlife is nice and adds a little touch to the game and all, but stuff like ginseng, ginger and myrrh (practically everything that grows in the actual forests) is rarely above sparse, if ever. I've scoured every overworld forest back to front and lastharvest brings up the same four or five names every time. There is no penalty for overharvesting other than decreasing the supply for other players which in turn ramps up the price on said herbs, so for people with large herb stacks that they intend to sell, deliberately overharvesting for a week or two can be a viable method of driving up their profit margins.

    This is completely against the forestal ethos and for sure, the five or so names I see come from grandfathered forestals located in cities other than Eleusis. What I would like to see is consequences for fully depleting a room of its plantlife, which I will describe below.

    Each plant-bearing room should have a base fertility level which is individually determined by its geographical location (as in some plants will thrive better in certain areas, such as elm in darkwood forests and so forth). Each plant growing in the room draws from this base fertility level to determine both its rate of growth and its yield. Harvesting from a plant in this room will slightly affect the fertility level temporarily if the plant is abundant or above, but will affect the fertility level significantly larger and for significantly longer. Continual overharvesting will permanently decrease the room's base fertility level, and if it reaches 0, the room takes on an exterminated-esque effect where all life is inhibited from growing in it for several real life days unless it is attended to by forestals.

    When a room is psuedo-exterminated by overharvesting, Oakstone will be sent a report on the primary offenders of the overharvesting for that particular area, so that they may mete out punishment appropriately. This is hardly an ideal solution (since Oakstone is kinda ehhh to begin with anyway), but there absolutely needs to be some form of consequence between simple diminishing in supply and convenience. Feel free to suggest alternatives.

    Stemming from this, I would like to see a Groves ability added that prevents anyone who does not have use of the grove from harvesting the plantlife in your grove beyond a certain growth level. I find the concept of someone overharvesting another's grove extremely rude given the nature of the bond between a forestal and his grove, and have even considered holding people accountable for doing so IC. That is another matter entirely, but I would like to see some sort of imposable restriction on randoms harvesting from your true grove, whether it is unified or not.

    To compensate for the decreased supply that this will inevitably produce in the short term, I would also like to see an ability in Groves to especially care for and nurture the plant life in your grove, speeding its growth rate up by several orders of magnitude. Like grove seal, this would be a daily thing, and could even include using other plants not from your grove's environment as fertilizer for your plants, or something of that ilk.

    Basically, overharvesting forestals should be punished and forestals should actually have to take care of the damned forests like their premise suggests.
    -1,000000 to anything that gives Oakstone more power/makes it easier for them to exercise the power they already have.  If somebody is making your life miserable by overharvesting, you have to understand two things: 1) You don't have a 'right' to harvest X amount of plants, 2) Overharvesting isn't against any OOC rules, so shouldn't be punished by OOC mechanisms (such as an email to Oakstone asking them to grief the offender).  If you catch them through IC mechanisms, then you already have a mandate to deal with it in any reasonable fashion due to the new PK laws.

    If none of that works... by some credits and roll an Alchemist.


    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    Daeir
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A lot of things aren't against any OOC rules, but have plenty of IC justification for imposing limits on them. If you're a protector of life in the land, harvesting something completely bare is not exactly protecting the life nor is it nourishing it. Forestals are supposed to collect the excess, not strip a room bare of anything that is remotely useful.

    I'm not sure where you're drawing the OOC mechanisms from. The forests have spirits - it's perfectly conceivable for them to report on whom has taken the most product from a particular room at a given point in time. They're attached to the bloody places.

    I have an Alchemist. Transmutation is bland and boring and involves standing in one spot in a pre-determined area doing something else while triggers do the work for you. It is boring, devoid of any interaction beyond the Philosopher's Stone stuff and is practically a burden you perform for money and convenience's sake, rather than something that is a central element to the class as a whole. If you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation beyond "I don't like this because.. OAKSTONE" and are not willing to suggest viable alternatives, go post image macros in the Membrane instead.
    SylvanceBoosteya
  • JonathinJonathin Retirement hole.Posts: 3,285Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    I never had issues finding herbs as a forestal and not much has changed since then.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    Sylvance
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Daeir said:
    A lot of things aren't against any OOC rules, but have plenty of IC justification for imposing limits on them. If you're a protector of life in the land, harvesting something completely bare is not exactly protecting the life nor is it nourishing it. Forestals are supposed to collect the excess, not strip a room bare of anything that is remotely useful.

    I'm not sure where you're drawing the OOC mechanisms from. The forests have spirits - it's perfectly conceivable for them to report on whom has taken the most product from a particular room at a given point in time. They're attached to the bloody places.

    I have an Alchemist. Transmutation is bland and boring and involves standing in one spot in a pre-determined area doing something else while triggers do the work for you. It is boring, devoid of any interaction beyond the Philosopher's Stone stuff and is practically a burden you perform for money and convenience's sake, rather than something that is a central element to the class as a whole. If you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation beyond "I don't like this because.. OAKSTONE" and are not willing to suggest viable alternatives, go post image macros in the Membrane instead.
    I'll ignore the snark because I can tell that you're upset.  I don't understand why but that's your problem not mine.

    The viable alternative that you're asking for is: No problem, no alternative.  kthx
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • VasoolVasool Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Stop proving people wrong and trolling us with your "numbers" Sena. And Western Ithmia is not "easily accessible" if you're bashing Tenwat.
    BoosteyaIdelisaTvistorEphram
  • EurulisEurulis Posts: 62Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    We really don't need to give that particular power back to Oakstone. I remember when it was taken away in the first place. Everyone was so darn afraid to harvest normally at first, because Oakstone used to crack down hard on that kind of thing. I recall needing to tell a few people that Oakstone wouldn't punish for 'overharvesting' any longer multiple times for about a week after that particular event happened.

    As for your complaint about not being able to find herbs, don't be afraid to go to Meropis or heck, just wander. They're there, just that there's a lot of people doing the harvesting, especially on the main continent.

    As for your suggestion for a groves skill, it -would- be interesting to have a grove refuse anyone but the owner to pick the herbs, but before that gets looked at, I think Groves need a bit of admin love. The skill itself seems rather split in half between portability and staying in one place, though they've done a good job of moving things over to portability. I feel a few abilities need to be looked at before anything else, really, such as Eject, Guardian, Summon,maybe Fertility, and I'm just plain curious as to why Lightning was made into a LOS attack rather than the Area attack that it used to be. But I can whine about those later.

    As for your fertility mechanic, let's not do that. It sounds tedious and on the path to give Oakstone that whole punishing for overharvesting thing again. We don't want that. Even Oakstone didn't want that. Especially not if Oakstone is just going to get the names with no work. -Especially- when you consider that if that little mini-holocaust thing should happen, it puts the blame on forestals who may or may not want to or have the time to do something like that (Is this only in the forest? Because it seems like it extends to -all- harvesting) and get told they're not "Forestal" enough or something.

    Finally, if it really bothers you, don't think of it as "Over harvesting" or "Strip harvesting" or whatever. Think of it as simply taking up all the excess and the rest are left to allow more to grow for later.
    SylvanceBoosteyaSherazad
  • XithXith Posts: 2,602Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vasool said:
    Stop proving people wrong and trolling us with your "numbers" Sena. And Western Ithmia is not "easily accessible" if you're bashing Tenwat.


    No matter how hard I try, I can never read Tenwat without inadvertently removing the 'en'.

    Also, there are plenty of plants, but what you might do (or Eleusis might do) is have a Ferility campaign where everyone goes out and fertilizes the plants with their sticks (despite how wrong that sounds).

    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    SylvanceBoosteyaVasool
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Xith said:
    Vasool said:
    Stop proving people wrong and trolling us with your "numbers" Sena. And Western Ithmia is not "easily accessible" if you're bashing Tenwat.


    No matter how hard I try, I can never read Tenwat without inadvertently removing the 'en'.

    Also, there are plenty of plants, but what you might do (or Eleusis might do) is have a Ferility campaign where everyone goes out and fertilizes the plants with their sticks (despite how wrong that sounds).

    @Xith - You are now officially my favourite person on the forums :D

    ETA: Tripley so for being my hundredth like and getting me my badge!!! :D
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    Xith
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,920Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Checked a larger forest (44 forest rooms, the previous was 26), found 105 moderate plants (20 myrrh, 12 ginger, 31 ginseng, 11 echinacea, 20 elm, 11 lobelia), 30 plentiful (18 myrrh, 4 elm, 5 ginseng, 1 echinacea, 1 lobelia, 1 ginger), and 1 abundant (myrrh).

    And for non-forest plants, you can find them at abundant and plentiful all over. I didn't even bother counting, because it's harder to find sparse than it is to find abundant.

    If you can't find plants, you're most likely just checking the most heavily harvested areas in the game (the Ithmias, Aureliana, and Aalen). Plus, even if sparse is all you can find, demand for herbs is drastically reduced now that we have alchemical curatives, so sparse is more than enough to keep up with demand.
    XithSherazad
  • PenwizePenwize Posts: 1,328Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vasool said:
    Stop proving people wrong and trolling us with your "numbers" Sena. And Western Ithmia is not "easily accessible" if you're bashing Tenwat.
    As a frequent basher of Tenwat, I can assure you the Western Ithmia is very easily accessible to me at any time.
    VasoolChord
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nobody else is having these problems at all?

    Huh. Maybe I'm just riding the tail end of a bunch of dedicated harvesters or something. I've had tremendous trouble getting even moderate quantities of ginseng and ginger lately.

    Oh well. I still think it'd be pretty neat for there to be some sort of consequence for this kinda thing, but if there was such a thing in place previously and it has since been removed, then it obviously isn't a good idea.
    Sylvance
  • AepasAepas Posts: 1,619Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Harvesting is just fine.

    I'm enemied to oakstone, so let's not start talking about how hard it is to harvest.

    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    SylvanceIdelisa
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthPosts: 951Member @ - Epic Achaean
    As another Mhaldorian with a forestal alt, I'm saying I also don't have that problem. But I'm also harvesting out of the way places. Even so, I get some plants in popular places too. 

    Daeir said: Oh well. I still think it'd be pretty neat for there to be some sort of consequence for this kinda thing, but if there was such a thing in place previously and it has since been removed, then it obviously isn't a good idea.

    Consequence for what?
    Trying to write about games, series, movies at Geeksauce Rocks! On hiatus D:
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


    SylvanceVasool
  • WysteriaWysteria Posts: 1,826Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have a full rift and it took me about about 22 hours of harvesting total to get it that way. Now I only need to harvest every so often. It's just a matter of knowing the spots people don't bother with and exploring around literally everywhere for your herbs. Offplane, on plane, go sailing for some spots etc.

    It's not even blind luck, just persistence. I don't harvest the Temples either now do I have Gloves of Harvesting. Just how much herbs do you need anyway?
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

    Exelethril
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    All of them. I must have them all.

    EDIT: Man, I must really be doing this wrong. Checked the Ithmias, Aureliana, and Aalen, Rheodad and a few other places and 85% of all the rooms I tried to harvest from were either sparse or could not be harvested from.
  • AvtoAvto Posts: 101Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Get an artefact.
    Sylvance
  • WysteriaWysteria Posts: 1,826Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wysteria said:
    I have a full rift and it took me about about 22 hours of harvesting total to get it that way. Now I only need to harvest every so often. It's just a matter of knowing the spots people don't bother with and exploring around literally everywhere for your herbs. Offplane, on plane, go sailing for some spots etc.

    It's not even blind luck, just persistence. I don't harvest the Temples either now do I have Gloves of Harvesting. Just how much herbs do you need anyway?
    Should be nor...I don't have GoH...English fail.
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

  • WysteriaWysteria Posts: 1,826Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    All of them. I must have them all.

    EDIT: Man, I must really be doing this wrong. Checked the Ithmias, Aureliana, and Aalen, Rheodad and a few other places and 85% of all the rooms I tried to harvest from were either sparse or could not be harvested from.
    Oh wait...see I harvest when there's only maybe 80ppl in realms. My version of timezone abuse. :D
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

    SylvanceExelethrilIdelisaMannimar
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tried again, all the larger areas completely harvested except Rheodad, which had recovered to moderate levels.

    I must be doing something wrong, judging by the disagrees. Is there some sort of trick to harvesting more than 1-2 herbs per go with trans Concoctions that doesn't involve sinking 100 dollars into an artefact?
  • WysteriaWysteria Posts: 1,826Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Only artefacts I have are a Circlet of the Will and a Hunter's Belt.

    I pretty much just do every single room I walk across, then again I have that kind of patience and from a character perspective, I can patrol those rooms for their missing plants anyway (Oakstone whatevs stuff). I never bother with the Ithmias for harvesting. When you're done with hunting and your wp/end is low, just spend that time harvesting everywhere, I've managed 5 or 6 pcs coming from a sparse plant too. It adds up eventually, but it really does come down to chance if you're aiming for the larger places during peak.
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

    SherazadExelethril
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I harvest in willpower downtime as well. Being a Sylvan, that is a lot of the time.

    I just don't understand what's going on. I'm Australian so I don't exactly play in peak either - do I seriously just have the worst luck in the universe when it comes to harvesting?
    Sherazad
  • WysteriaWysteria Posts: 1,826Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Daeir: Oi I'm Australian too. How come I've never seen you while in the forests hmm? Play around 2200-2300H, usually pretty good for harvesting from what I've found as that's when the plants' new growth click in. I can just sit in one room and get that ambient emote of the plant flourishing.
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

    Exelethril
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, that would likely be because the name of my forestal alt is not Daeir, and you harvesting infrequently due to a near-full rift as you said earlier probably has something to do with it. I posted this idea because I felt that there was a legitimate issue with the way harvesting is currently, not because I particularly wanted to have a chunk of disagrees delaying me from precious, precious forum phase.
«1
This discussion has been closed.