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Making alts in the same orgs

SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,587Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
Okay, it's no secret that I don't really care for this practice. But I'm curious if there's actually any legitimate reason why anyone would have multiple characters in the same city/house. Further to that, why this practice is even allowed anymore.

You can't vote in elections with those characters and I don't think anyone likes House requirements that much that they'd do the same reqs twice. You don't even have the 'I want to play different classes' excuse because we now have multiclass. You also can't (or well, you shouldn't) be holding seats of office with multiple characters either. I've only known one person to do this and he wasn't a fuckwit, and it was between different organisations/cities (come back bb I miss you). 

Sharing orgs with your alts restricts your character in more stringent ways than just regular alting, and cross-character accountability constantly hangs over your head. It's also really damn creepy if you think about it.


KayeilCaelanShara
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Comments

  • TreyTrey Posts: 4,503Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I do not disagree with any of the above.

    Caelan
  • ShirszaeShirszae Caer WitrinPosts: 2,790Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wholeheartedly agree that alts in the same org are stupid.

    However, the class thing could be a very flimsy but still somewhat valid excuse. Yes, we have multiclass, but lets not forget multiclass gets more expensive with each new class you add to it up until the fourth one or so. So someone scant on resources might presumably create an alt to experience another class from the same faction while having all the benefits such as bound credits bonus and no lesson inflation.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

    image

    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Caelan
  • AesgarAesgar Posts: 363Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 10
    I have done it quite a bit in the past. It's pretty informative, especially when I'm in leadership looking to get some perspective on what it is like for a novice coming into the organization. Are they getting the necessary help, information, and guidance? Is everything clear and straightforward, or confusing? Helps me find room for improvement and identify any "loopholes" that need to be addressed.

    Of course, most of these things I can look for on my main character. What I am talking about more specifically, is for example, bugs that I have found in the task system and other similar errors. Other than that, it's even more fun to enjoy your splendid organization without all the responsibility :)
    Prythe
  • RemiliaRemilia Posts: 67Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 10
    Skye said:





    I've seen some stupid opinions in the past, but holy shit, this one is extra stupid.

    Shouldn't you be more worried about cross-character accountability from someone from an opposing org making an alt in yours? What's stopping them from just getting rank in your own house and then blabbing all your secrets to their main's friends? If we're trying to restict how people are allowed to play and enjoy the game, we'd be better off restricting opposing-faction alts, like even World of Warcraft does in their PVP servers, not same-faction ones, which are more harmless than a baby mouse's first fart.

    But you shouldn't be arguing against letting people play the game the way they want to play it in the first place, especially about something as ridiculously petty and inconsequential as "Why is making two characters in the same org allowed?". There are much more important things to argue about, like why paralysis shouldn't instantly prevent all actions or why Cyrene should be deleted.
    Shayde
  • RemiliaRemilia Posts: 67Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 10
    Oh, I forgot to actually answer the question. Whoops.
    Skye said:
    But I'm curious if there's actually any legitimate reason why anyone would have multiple characters in the same city/house. Further to that, why this practice is even allowed anymore.
    Because I want to, and because HELP SECONDS and HELP CROSS CHARACTER both exist in great, unambiguous detail that conveniently cover all of the issues you have against people playing pretend with more than one text wizard in the same text city.
  • GavriilGavriil Posts: 36Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Remilia said:
    Oh, I forgot to actually answer the question. Whoops.
    Skye said:
    But I'm curious if there's actually any legitimate reason why anyone would have multiple characters in the same city/house. Further to that, why this practice is even allowed anymore.
    Because I want to, and because HELP SECONDS and HELP CROSS CHARACTER both exist in great, unambiguous detail that conveniently cover all of the issues you have against people playing pretend with more than one text wizard in the same text city.
    I lol'd. Really hard. 
    image
  • KoganKogan Posts: 325Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Remilia said:


    I've seen some stupid opinions in the past, but holy shit, this one is extra stupid.

    There are much more important things to argue about, like why paralysis shouldn't instantly prevent all actions or why Cyrene should be deleted.
    I've seen some stupid things on forums in the past, but this one is extra stupid. You honestly come across like a child who had their feelings hurt and you seemed salty from beginning to end. Like her opinion directly hurt your feelings. Not to mention just fucking rude. Called someone's opinion petty with the basis that they shouldn't decide how other people get to play. Brings up deleting a whole city people are in because that's how they want to play. Makes sense. Also... Paralysis shouldn't instantly prevent all actions?  What. Do you even do anything beside hit a bashing attack in groups? I'm scared to ask about 1v1 when you think that would be an okay thing to do. Just an ignorant post. 
  • KhelKhel Posts: 189Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    To be fair, Aetolia made the change and it made their combat about a billion times less cancer than it was. Don't play enough here any more to make a judgment for serious on it, but back when I did 'spam paralysis' was not super engaging gameplay for either end of things.
  • RemiliaRemilia Posts: 67Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 10
    Kogan said:

    Also... Paralysis shouldn't instantly prevent all actions?  What. Do you even do anything beside hit a bashing attack in groups? I'm scared to ask about 1v1 when you think that would be an okay thing to do. Just an ignorant post. 
    If you think that's the case, please go after Remilia so I can farm you. Gotta get Dragon somehow. ❤️

    Paralysis has already been fixed in every other IRE game by changing it to a 'numbness' aff that only blocks tattoos and leaving the room, and turns into full paralysis after six seconds if left uncured. This lets it retain its viability as a hinder and lock aff while preventing every fight with an aff class from being a race over who can spam para/clumsy the fastest.

    If that bothers you, then maybe the problem is you.
  • KoganKogan Posts: 325Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Khel said:
    To be fair, Aetolia made the change and it made their combat about a billion times less cancer than it was. Don't play enough here any more to make a judgment for serious on it, but back when I did 'spam paralysis' was not super engaging gameplay for either end of things.
    I don't understand. I prio par quite high and generally don't have any issues delayed paralysis would fix. 
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 10
    Khel said:
    To be fair, Aetolia made the change and it made their combat about a billion times less cancer than it was. Don't play enough here any more to make a judgment for serious on it, but back when I did 'spam paralysis' was not super engaging gameplay for either end of things.
    Except paresis is just as awful of a mechanic, if not worse, than paralysis. There's a reason the idea has been shot down countless times by Makarios, to have a similar function here. That's barely breaking the surface of why Aetolia combat is ass, as well.
    Farrah
  • KoganKogan Posts: 325Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Remilia said:
    Kogan said:

    Also... Paralysis shouldn't instantly prevent all actions?  What. Do you even do anything beside hit a bashing attack in groups? I'm scared to ask about 1v1 when you think that would be an okay thing to do. Just an ignorant post. 
    If you think that's the case, please go after Remilia so I can farm you. Gotta get Dragon somehow. ❤️

    Paralysis has already been fixed in every other IRE game by changing it to a 'numbness' aff that only blocks tattoos and leaving the room, and turns into full paralysis after six seconds if left uncured. This lets it retain its viability as a hinder and lock aff while preventing every fight with an aff class from being a race over who can spam para/clumsy the fastest.

    If that bothers you, then maybe the problem is you.
    Ah, except you would not farm me lol. Also... all those other IRE games seem to be doing just FANTASTIC huh?
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kogan said:
    Remilia said:
    Kogan said:

    Also... Paralysis shouldn't instantly prevent all actions?  What. Do you even do anything beside hit a bashing attack in groups? I'm scared to ask about 1v1 when you think that would be an okay thing to do. Just an ignorant post. 
    If you think that's the case, please go after Remilia so I can farm you. Gotta get Dragon somehow. ❤️

    Paralysis has already been fixed in every other IRE game by changing it to a 'numbness' aff that only blocks tattoos and leaving the room, and turns into full paralysis after six seconds if left uncured. This lets it retain its viability as a hinder and lock aff while preventing every fight with an aff class from being a race over who can spam para/clumsy the fastest.

    If that bothers you, then maybe the problem is you.
    Ah, except you would not farm me lol. Also... all those other IRE games seem to be doing just FANTASTIC huh?
    Ignore the shit-talking troll. Generally the ones who retire from other games, are gonna say things they took advantage of were good mechanics, when in actuality they're awful.
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesPosts: 1,365Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 10
    I agree it's a dumb practice (same-org alting) though Achaeans are a tech-savvy bunch and it would take some extraordinarily stringent measures to stop committed people from doing it. I'm sure everyone here can think of more than a few ways to keep alts appear to be two different people to the server. I'm not saying its not worth admin consideration just because a few bad eggs will find ways to break rules, just that we should be mindful people will continue doing it. And then the admins have to spend extra time/resources on sniffing out those people.

  • RemiliaRemilia Posts: 67Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 10
    Ryzeth said:
    Ignore the shit-talking troll. Generally the ones who retire from other games, are gonna say things they took advantage of were good mechanics, when in actuality they're awful.


    Let's see if you can provide a valid argument as to why spamming paralysis on every attack is a fun or interesting game mechanic, instead of just accusing everyone you disagree with of being a troll
    Aktillum said:
    I agree it's a dumb practice (same-org alting) though Achaeans are a tech-savvy bunch and it would take some extraordinarily stringent measures to stop committed people from doing it. I'm sure everyone here can think of more than a few ways to keep alts appear to be two different people to the server. I'm not saying its not worth admin consideration just because a few bad eggs will find ways to break rules, just that we should be mindful people will continue doing it. And then the admins have to spend extra time/resources on sniffing out those people.
    HELP SECONDS
    HELP CROSS CHARACTER

    These regulations already exist so that responsible people can responsibly play same-org alts. There is no reason you can feasibly present to mechanically disallow or even discourage doing so. "I think it's creepy/dumb" is not an argument.
  • RyzethRyzeth Posts: 1,105Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 10
    Remilia said:
    Ryzeth said:
    Ignore the shit-talking troll. Generally the ones who retire from other games, are gonna say things they took advantage of were good mechanics, when in actuality they're awful.
    instead of just accusing everyone you disagree with of being a troll.
    It's your attitude that shows that, not your comments alone. Please continue posting large gifs, as if that proves to the contrary. You're already well past the point of showing you have the maturity level of a stuffed potato.

    Durr someone disagreed with me, better get hostile as fuck. Because that proves you're smarter than them, yessir.
  • RemiliaRemilia Posts: 67Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ryzeth said:
    It's your attitude that shows that, not your comments alone. Please continue posting large gifs, as if that proves to the contrary. You're already well past the point of showing you have the maturity level of a stuffed potato.

    Durr someone disagreed with me, better get hostile as fuck. Because that proves you're smarter than them, yessir.
    This is not an argument. 
  • KoganKogan Posts: 325Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 10
    Remilia said:
    Ryzeth said:
    Ignore the shit-talking troll. Generally the ones who retire from other games, are gonna say things they took advantage of were good mechanics, when in actuality they're awful.
    *insert shitty gif that implies I won a text argument*

    Let's see if you can provide a valid argument as to why spamming paralysis on every attack is a fun or interesting game mechanic, instead of just accusing everyone you disagree with of being a troll
    I just want to know why you're doing paralysis on every balance as a runewarden. Do you never get ahead of herb balance? If not that may be step one to fixing using paralysis on every balance that will make stacking afflictions more intriguing for you.

    Edit: We're way off topic and pretty much hijacked this thread. So I'm done. You guys have fun.
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesPosts: 1,365Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 10
    Remilia said:
    Aktillum said:
    I agree it's a dumb practice (same-org alting) though Achaeans are a tech-savvy bunch and it would take some extraordinarily stringent measures to stop committed people from doing it. I'm sure everyone here can think of more than a few ways to keep alts appear to be two different people to the server. I'm not saying its not worth admin consideration just because a few bad eggs will find ways to break rules, just that we should be mindful people will continue doing it. And then the admins have to spend extra time/resources on sniffing out those people.
    HELP SECONDS
    HELP CROSS CHARACTER

    These regulations already exist so that responsible people can responsibly play same-org alts. There is no reason you can feasibly present to mechanically disallow or even discourage doing so. "I think it's creepy/dumb" is not an argument.

    I somewhat agree and that is why I did not attempt to present an argument as to why it should be disallowed. I think alting in the same orgs opens up to potential for abuse, but as you pointed out, there are clear guidelines on what is allowable. The only concern I have is that alt-helping isn't always black-and-white, like voting for yourself. It can be grey area as well, for example, everyone knows Houses tend to get divided into "cliques". So you have alt 1 be buddy-buddy with Clique A and alt 2 be buddy-buddy with Clique B, and even though you aren't tangibly helping yourself, you're in a very grey area because you can potentially harvest gossip etc. Basically, Achaea is a social game, and there are ways to "help" yourself that aren't, y'know, dropping a pack of gold and picking it up on an alt.

    But as I said before, the admins would be very hard-pressed to sniff out a dedicated multiplayer, so it'd just become a waste of resources. They'd pretty much need to force everyone to use the website client and verify everyone's character by personal phone call.

  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,161Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It does make for a dumb story since two same-org alts can never be around at the same time, even though they're supposed to live/work with each other.

    Imagine like two city Ministers that have technically never met, and will never meet?
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • RemiliaRemilia Posts: 67Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kogan said:
    I just want to know why you're doing paralysis on every balance as a runewarden. Do you never get ahead of herb balance? If not that may be step one to fixing using paralysis on every balance that will make stacking afflictions more intriguing for you.
    People prio paralysis first unless they don't actually like hitting back, so obviously they're going to cure it first. Which means you have to reapply it every time they cure it. Which is just about every attack. Sometimes you get past herb balance if you're tracking affs properly, sure, but you're still guaranteed to get past it even if you're just spamming para. No big deal.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,161Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This thread has inspired me to make 5 magi alts in Mhaldor, so there's magi aplenty for Aegoth's cata army, but never at the same time.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    MathildaAtalkezAntidasAziik
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,046Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Krypton said:
    This thread has inspired me to make 5 magi alts in Mhaldor, so there's magi aplenty for Aegoth's cata army, but never at the same time.
    but never any of them are trans crystalism or elementalism. All trans vision for tracking that sweet xps
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesPosts: 1,365Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Krypton said:
    This thread has inspired me to make 5 magi alts in Mhaldor, so there's magi aplenty for Aegoth's cata army, but never at the same time.



    SiduriMathilda
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,745Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 10
    What happens when your house leader asks of you to work together with your alt on a project? Do you politely decline? Or do you say okay and just tough out the workload for two people?

    At what point does this point in HELP SECONDS cross?
       - using multiple characters to further a specific IC or OOC goal as a player

    Because since we are talking that help seconds are in (the stridently advocated) unambigious terms wouldn't this apply to the goals of the city, Order or house the person has both their characters are in?

    Skye
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,587Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Putting Ben Siegel aside for a moment, Aktillum and Tahquil largely hit it on the head. There are many ways in which you can benefit your character that isn't really listed in black and white terms.  

    Firstly, while the 'rules' are certainly listed in great detail, they are also not very well policed. I can't recall the last time someone was shrubbed for logging in to see who took a bounty on them, or switched characters for a more desirable class in the middle of the raid, or (when trade skills were class-locked) logging on to their alchemist/forestal because the city needed refills. Characters who get shrubbed are more likely for doing more traceable things like sharing items/stalking/harrassment etc. 

    Secondly, having a finger in every pie isn't just 'creepy' but it can severely affect your experience IG as well. It influences your perspective of certain players. In theory, you could say that this would not affect the way you interact with those players, but in practice, you would have to be a saint to remain 100% impartial from your OOC experiences. That goes for alts and forums alike. People who behave like shitheads on forums are also generally perceived to be shitheads IG, for example. 

    For players who learn that you're doing this, it would affect them negatively as well because you're basically inserting yourself into multiple avenues like some kind of Big Brother surveillance.

    Anecdotally, I would say that most people have less problems with alts in different cities than they do with players having multiple characters in the same organisation. I suspect a good part of it has to do with trust: A(n active) character in a different city with a different IC social circle has a more tangible boundary between X's interests and Y's interests. The crossing of that boundary is also far more apparent.

    For a player with X and Y both in the same city, what becomes your motive? Maybe like Aesgar, you just want to make a throwaway to see how the city functions from the lowest level. That's pretty harmless. Or maybe you want to see what other people are saying about you behind your back. That's pretty uncomfortable. 


  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesPosts: 1,365Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 10
    I agree with @Skye, let me just play devil's advocate.

    >Characters who get shrubbed are more likely for doing more traceable things like sharing items/stalking/harrassment etc.

    Key word there is "traceable things" - if admins already have a hard time policing the more difficult things to trace, banning same-org alts entirely would just inspire the dedicated multiplayers to be more untraceable through more technical methods. And while outright banning of same-org alts would lessen the amount of alt policing the admins need to do, it'd take considerably more effort to focus on tracking down those few who would find ways around it.

    Furthermore, lets assume that the admins assume everyone who has an alt is following the rules, and that alts are good for business because it means people will spend money on multiple characters. Banning same-org alts would effect business. Its our guess just how much, whether it'd be a really negligible amount or if there's actually a handful of people dropping serious cash on same-org alts, only IRE would know for sure. I'm sure we could all think of a few well-known people who have multiple chars in the same city and each of their chars are piled in arties.

    So basically, the argument against banning same-org alts in theory would boil down to A: increased headache in trying to stop the really dedicated multiplayers, and B: potential loss of revenue.

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