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Org Alliances Not Valid Unless Mutual

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  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,889 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Krypton lives in fear that every death is potentially permanent. Don't stifle his arpee.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,020 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 8
    Keorin said:
    Am I the only one a little sad about how many codified rules go into what makes up an "rp reason" to attack someone?

    It wasnt always like this...at least, it wasnt before. If you had an RP reason to attack someone, then it was generally okay, you just had to face the repercussions of being hired on. The main idea associated with it was to use common sense and not to use half-ass excuses like "i'm just a murderer". I'm not sure where this sudden "you are breaking rules to attack someone unless the NPC said it is okay" came from...completely new to me.


    Edit: Heck, the HELP PK scroll even states it:

    There must be a justifiable role-play reason for every attack and death.

    This does not mean you can attack other players repeatedly just for being a
    member of an opposing organisation. Neither can you justify your behaviour by
    claiming something like "my character is a psycho killer!" A player must have
    done something serious to you to warrant an attack, and they must be aware of
    the conflict before you attack them.



    I'm still not sure why it isnt seen as justifiable to attack someone slaughtering your race, of which you are part of the Highclan associated with being connected and communing with that race, even after having warned them, which is what the scroll says. If that isnt seen as legitimate RP reasoning based on this new rule...then I dont know what is.


    Having to wait for the NPC to give you thumbsup...seems pretty stupid :/
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Jinsun murders folks who attack the Tsol'aa in the Aalen.

    Because he's Tsol'aa.  If he doesn't get issued over it, I'm p. sure that Kogan is just fine.
    Asmodron
  • FaurFaur Member Posts: 136 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    As it stands, as far as I remember it (@Eril, feel free to jump in), we were working on getting mutual alliances, before some BS on my end (long story) took me away from the game for a bit, and when I had time to get back, Lord Phaestus had started to slumber. Right around this time, He and I kept missing each other to set it up proper-like to get the mutual alliance set up. As of right now, there's literally nothing I can do on my end to get it fixed, so it seems (SEEMS, I said) like this is a loophole that's in progress of being corrected. So, take it as you will.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 3,964 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Asmodron There are no new rules. The rules surrounding the defending of denizens have been around for longer than the current version of HELP PK, as far as I know.

    @Faur "literally nothing I can do" is a joke. There is nothing stopping you from writing to or communicating with the relevant denizens and seeing if one of the active Gods decide to roll with it. There's also nothing stopping you from emailing and trying to set something up.
    Prythe
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,020 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 8
    @Antonius the old pk rules were static and rather suffocating to game play, which is why they were removed. Can only attack X if during Y timeframe and committed one of these offenses,of which you can and cannot hire depending blah blah.

    The new rules were very simple. If you had rp justification, then go ahead. It was nice and flexible and offered interesting gameplay. Attempting to once again add clauses and notes based on circumstances will just ruin it again.

    From an RP standpoint, I see it as rather daunting that if a dwarf player is seeing someone kill dwarves in one of the camps, that they are not allowed to stop them because "admin said we arent allowed". I can picture them standing there with an axe and asking the killer if they would please stop gutting that dwarf..

    In conclusion. This entire new rule being throw at the current pk rp ruling is just going to start stunting rp attacks. Yes it is new, because several of us having been following the idea we can defend npc of our race based on RP reasoning. There was no previous mention of this idea that "the npcs have to say it is ok"

  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 8
    Frederich said:
    @Jinsun murders folks who attack the Tsol'aa in the Aalen.

    Because he's Tsol'aa.  If he doesn't get issued over it, I'm p. sure that Kogan is just fine.
    "If people don't issue him, he must not be in the wrong."

    Ya cause that's great logic. Despite Nicola already pretty blatantly posting to the contrary.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,889 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jumping in to defend an unallied denizen willy-nilly isn't RP. Does the denizen acknowledge, notice, or even care that you are there? Mutual Alliance exists to give constructive notice that, yes, so-and-so Org has actually interacted and forged an RP relationship with this denizen group prior, that it makes RP sense for them to be their defenders.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • FaurFaur Member Posts: 136 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Antonius said:

    @Faur "literally nothing I can do" is a joke. There is nothing stopping you from writing to or communicating with the relevant denizens and seeing if one of the active Gods decide to roll with it. There's also nothing stopping you from emailing and trying to set something up.
    Already done (first part done multiple times). Have been waiting for a response for a bit, but I've heard nothing back, so it's not really a joke.
    AsmodronKayeilMathilda
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,020 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 8
    With gods slumbering, and other gods taking it up, will generally bring different responses. Where phaestus was eager and willing to make the alliance you seek @Faur ,current active might not be inclined or may even believe it shouldn't be.
  • FaurFaur Member Posts: 136 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 8
    I could live with the admin saying, "Nope, not happening!" As long as I end up hearing something, even if it's "Work on Plan B." (No, not being twice as annoying.)
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,020 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Krypton said:
    Jumping in to defend an unallied denizen willy-nilly isn't RP. Does the denizen acknowledge, notice, or even care that you are there? Mutual Alliance exists to give constructive notice that, yes, so-and-so Org has actually interacted and forged an RP relationship with this denizen group prior, that it makes RP sense for them to be their defenders.


    From my original understanding, the idea of mutual alliance was more than "We get to attack those hunting there".  As you said, it is about interacting and forging an RP relationship, in order to get the mutual alliance. It is why mutual alliances are more of a world-wide stage concept, wherein this org has fully announced to the world that it is in line (at least to a degree) with the ideals of X organization.

    But my point wasnt about mutual alliances, which I believe are a different concept entirely. My point was: when did attempting to stop those slaughtering villagers of a village of player's race, become not illegible for RP motivation for PK? Like I said before, I had seen it several times occur, from both sides of the field. I've been attacked/warned for killing NPCs of a race in a village, as well as been on the attacking end, in the Arcadia mention. Heck at one point I even considered going back to being on guard in Arcadia when the "Arcadian Genocide" memento reward was announced. No, it wasnt about mutual alliance, it was about personal racial RP, which it seems out of no where we have now been told "nope".
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Arcadia is strong enough to defend itself between the Royal Guards and Chenubis, but those in Vastar's Order can defend if they are inclined to. Klendathu sometimes will but I'm not combat inclined so I don't bother.

    @Asmodron, you can do that if you want to, but you just have to face the repercussions of getting hired on for attacking folks.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,889 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Being hired on is just the least of your potential repercussions. You can already be hired on for defending mutually allied denizens. (Klendathu can be hired on for defending Arcadians.)

    The repercussions could be more severe for defending, as the OP replyissue says, denizens you have "no reason to defend."
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    Arcadia is strong enough to defend itself between the Royal Guards and Chenubis
    Not last time I was there, it wasn't. :p
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarathai said:
    Kyrra said:
    Arcadia is strong enough to defend itself between the Royal Guards and Chenubis
    Not last time I was there, it wasn't. :p
    Yes, well, in general. People die like scrubs all the time, which is usually what gets them enemied :P 
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,745 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This is not Willy-Nilly RP. Jin openly tells his friends that it will cause a rift and if they aren't Ashtani he'll kill them. It's not an "issue me and see what happens" situation. He is ardently opposed to people hunting tsol'aa. I'm issued fairly regularly. Never been issued over tsol'aa. Generally it's about people calling me an inappropriate name, and me getting a warning for calling them Cunt.
    image
    Shayde
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jhui/Dunn gon be like, "I'm 'ardently oppposed' to people hunting Vertani, Moghedu, Delos Guards, Istarion and will kill anyone I see hunting there."

    It is "willy-nilly RP", broski.
    Nicola said:
    Players can only claim reason to defend a denizen group if the denizen group requests it of them (or accepts the offer of defence).
    Safe to assume they didn't ask you, lol. I will repeat again: Just because you don't get issued over something, doesn't mean you're not in the wrong.
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 311 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Are we really calling consistently-roleplayed ties to groups one shares a race or has background with "willy nilly rp"? And the only time where it makes sense to protect your old home/your race from rampaging murderers is when said denizens have officially agreed that they want to be protected by your organization?
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,810 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Keorin said:
    Are we really calling consistently-roleplayed ties to groups one shares a race or has background with "willy nilly rp"? And the only time where it makes sense to protect your old home/your race from rampaging murderers is when said denizens have officially agreed that they want to be protected by your organization?
    Yeah, I think both of those things are true.

    Cities defend 1-2 areas at most. Those areas are geographically close to the cities. The areas they defend tend to be smaller villages, rather than major bashing zones. And they are defended relatively consistently.

    Racial clans often want to lay claim to many areas. The areas are all across the map. They're usually major bashing zones. The defense is inconsistent.

    Racial clans lack the legitimacy of cities.

    Defending bashing areas is stupid and annoying anyway. It's a chore to do. The only people who enjoy it are the ones who enjoy flimsy pretenses to PK people. Token org enemying is lazy and unengaging. If you want to boost the legitimacy of your racial clan you should do more cool cultural stuff.
    image
    Mathilda
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,745 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ryzeth said:
    Jhui/Dunn gon be like, "I'm 'ardently oppposed' to people hunting Vertani, Moghedu, Delos Guards, Istarion and will kill anyone I see hunting there."


    Jhui and Dunn aren't Vertani so they couldn't really claim a home or racial tie there. Also, Lathis gave numerous opinions that you could RP and defend denizens, but you could not chase hunters once they left the area. Maybe this is a change in policy, but it's been something that's been accepted for a long time.
    image
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,131 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nicola said:
    @Marisella hit the nail on the head, every denizen village, outpost, town, settlement has their own way of doing things and their own beliefs (and even interpretation of beliefs). Players can only claim reason to defend a denizen group if the denizen group requests it of them (or accepts the offer of defence).
    @Jinsun
    Huh. Neat.
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,745 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    Nicola said:
    @Marisella hit the nail on the head, every denizen village, outpost, town, settlement has their own way of doing things and their own beliefs (and even interpretation of beliefs). Players can only claim reason to defend a denizen group if the denizen group requests it of them (or accepts the offer of defence).
    @Jinsun
    Jinsun said:
    Maybe this is a change in policy, but it's been something that's been accepted for a long time.

    image
    Asmodron
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,131 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You said 'maybe'. I was simply quoting, in case you missed it. <3
    Huh. Neat.
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Playing a game where a troll and a satyr can somehow have rajamalan kids. Of course they can claim a home tie to the Vertani, if they really want.

    Also, let's be real. 99% of the people who "defend" an area, only do so when they know they can kill the person hunting it, lol.
    Mathilda
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 587 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Keorin said:
    Are we really calling consistently-roleplayed ties to groups one shares a race or has background with "willy nilly rp"? And the only time where it makes sense to protect your old home/your race from rampaging murderers is when said denizens have officially agreed that they want to be protected by your organization?
    Yeah, this is pretty much the case.

    It falls under what I call the "psycho killer rule". Basically, there are avenues of RP which are detrimental to the game, no matter how well roleplayed they are and how consistent their player is.

    Maybe I'm a Targossan who had a bad brush with Chaos in my past and now I have PTSD and I see Chaos patterns and plots everywhere, and I respond to this by killing the participants to stop their plans from succeeding. Skye is sending subliminal Chaos messages in her market ads so she has to die. This shop is clearly a front for a cult to pass messages back and forth between its members, so the shopkeeper has to die. That novice aide is tainted and corrupting those he teaches, that scholar is delving too far into the forbidden. They all have to die. 

    It's a line of RP where it doesn't matter how well you play it. It doesn't matter how consistent you are. It doesn't matter what your story is. It doesn't matter how good your story is or how good your writing is or how much effort and thought you put into it. No matter how good it is, it's detrimental to the game for them to let you use your personal RP as carte blanche to kill anybody you like. Similarly, it is detrimental to the game for them you use your personal RP to dictate which areas people can and cannot bash in. 
    RyzethSiduriBlujixapug
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