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A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

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  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,021 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Asmodron said:
    Nazihk said:
    As a relatively recent convert to Targossas, I think it is pretty apparent that Nature is a second-string enemy at best.

    Joining this city, basically everything I had to fucking read was about how Darkness and Evil and Chaos are bad and why we oppose them and all that jazz. All the sermons were about them. All the rituals were about them. Deucalion's history is specifically opposed to Chaos. They are pretty clearly the main enemies of Targossas by any reasonable standard.

    On the other hand, I don't remember reading a goddamn word about Nature or Eleusis. I don't remember it showing prominently anywhere in the stuff I had to learn about. As far as I've managed to understand it, Targossas doesn't like Eleusis because they're a bunch of dicks who keep attacking us. Sure, they might be one of our main enemies right now, but that's because of circumstance. They're pretty clearly not considered to be on the level of the Dark/Evil/Chaos triad. 
    I'd be interested in taking a look at these readings, merely because from the last sermon I heard from Targ their definition of why to oppose Darkness was basically "Twilight is dangerous and did some crap in the past, so we dont like him". Im really hoping the readings mentioned are more developed than that.
    The readings are okay, but the general consensus and understanding of Darkness is extremely limited in lots of people. Tends to be viewed as more antithetical to Light as anything "real" like the subjugation of Creation under Evil, or the Oblivion-singularity end. People gloss over the conclusion of the Great Work being the literal remaking of Creation in Twilight's image and direction as being anything but another hellish doomsday-end scenario for some reason. Never understood it.

    I've taken to calling it the coming of the "Abyss" IC to give it more credence as an actual threat. It's also honestly the most interesting enemy from a theological standpoint, because Twilight is anything but obvious in his motives for what he does, if we even find out what he's doing, unlike Evil and Chaos which tend to broadcast everything they do at any given moment.
    Yep. For this reason I tend to imply that Twilight is the most dangerous "villain" God (Khalas is out of comission, so yeah...). While the other two are quite obvious in their motives, Twilight's plots tend to have you unknowingly assisting His desires before it is too late to stop what He has unleashed. I've always held His and Apollyon's actions in high esteem.

    I have an interesting theorum/story that im planning to release in time to try and explain why He chooses to seek domination and remaking of the universe. Should be fun.
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 604 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Chaos is clearly the most dangerous, imo.

    Twilight only wants to remake everything. Chaos wants to unmake everything.
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,021 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nazihk said:
    Chaos is clearly the most dangerous, imo.

    Twilight only wants to remake everything. Chaos wants to unmake everything.
    I suppose it depends on each one's definition of dangerous. I see an unseen blade that strikes you from behind and you find yourself waking up in chains with no memories of who you are and forced to mine coal for the rest of your days, as more dangerous than the known idea of chaos tryi g to unmake everything and a known group trying to push this.

    Basically unseen and unknown seems far more frightening than seen.
    Cailin
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pfff. Fear is the path to the dark side. Your post shows you are strong with the Force, but you are not a Jedi yet. 
  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Back to OP-- I personally love my life in Eleusis and can't think of any way it needs to change. Granted, I'm new to the game. I'm one of those pacifist Eleusians, and like Siena said, I love that Eleusis lets me be me. Story is, I joined Eleusis because Nature is pretty, and then I found out Gaia and Artemis want to destroy all the cities, and I'm like, nah cities are kinda pretty too? And so I find myself following Tarah and believing in Balance to a certain extent: cities are okay as long as they are not extremely destroying Nature (I do rather resent Hashan cutting down Northern Ithmia and would have fought them for that). I am not wholly pacifist: I do oppose Darkness, Chaos, and Evil, and would fight against them. But it makes me sad to see Eleusis and Targossas fight because I like them both. Although I understand and respect their reasoning for doing so. I do plan on preaching compassion and things later on, as was mentioned. There is plenty of RPing fun for me to do as a semi-pacifist Eleusian, and I am happy. Hugs!


    PS @Bail has a super interesting philosophy that I would recommend people ask him about.
  • ReilochReiloch Member Posts: 117 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 21
    Nazihk said:
    Chaos is clearly the most dangerous, imo.

    Twilight only wants to remake everything. Chaos wants to unmake everything.
    Nihilists want to unmake everything, but we are now a fairly small subsection of Chaos since the renaissance. It's more accurate to say that the Chaos faction wants to rootkit the universe for reasons as diverse as they are petty. Fundamentally and possibly permanently changing the way the world works in order to indulge some person's eccentricities is just as terrible as it sounds, but it's an entirely different kind of terrible compared to omnicide.
    AerekTruax
  • RemiliaRemilia Member Posts: 66 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 8
    Aegoth said:

    idk, sexy anime big-boobed dragon girl is pretty enticing....



    Keorin
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 2,815 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cailin said:
    Back to OP-- I personally love my life in Eleusis and can't think of any way it needs to change. Granted, I'm new to the game. I'm one of those pacifist Eleusians, and like Siena said, I love that Eleusis lets me be me. Story is, I joined Eleusis because Nature is pretty, and then I found out Gaia and Artemis want to destroy all the cities, and I'm like, nah cities are kinda pretty too? And so I find myself following Tarah and believing in Balance to a certain extent: cities are okay as long as they are not extremely destroying Nature (I do rather resent Hashan cutting down Northern Ithmia and would have fought them for that). I am not wholly pacifist: I do oppose Darkness, Chaos, and Evil, and would fight against them. But it makes me sad to see Eleusis and Targossas fight because I like them both. Although I understand and respect their reasoning for doing so. I do plan on preaching compassion and things later on, as was mentioned. There is plenty of RPing fun for me to do as a semi-pacifist Eleusian, and I am happy. Hugs!


    PS @Bail has a super interesting philosophy that I would recommend people ask him about.
    Should tell me that IG right away, will cause you and us far less trouble in the long run.
    image
  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Rangor said:
    Cailin said:
    Back to OP-- I personally love my life in Eleusis and can't think of any way it needs to change. Granted, I'm new to the game. I'm one of those pacifist Eleusians, and like Siena said, I love that Eleusis lets me be me. Story is, I joined Eleusis because Nature is pretty, and then I found out Gaia and Artemis want to destroy all the cities, and I'm like, nah cities are kinda pretty too? And so I find myself following Tarah and believing in Balance to a certain extent: cities are okay as long as they are not extremely destroying Nature (I do rather resent Hashan cutting down Northern Ithmia and would have fought them for that). I am not wholly pacifist: I do oppose Darkness, Chaos, and Evil, and would fight against them. But it makes me sad to see Eleusis and Targossas fight because I like them both. Although I understand and respect their reasoning for doing so. I do plan on preaching compassion and things later on, as was mentioned. There is plenty of RPing fun for me to do as a semi-pacifist Eleusian, and I am happy. Hugs!


    PS @Bail has a super interesting philosophy that I would recommend people ask him about.
    Should tell me that IG right away, will cause you and us far less trouble in the long run.

    Arghhh, sorry about the thread necro, I haven't been on the forums in forever and just saw this.

    I wish I could edit or delete what I said, but I can't, so I have to try to correct it here.

    I've changed a lot since I wrote that. Even when I wrote it, I had a feeling that I didn't word it right, that something was a little off.
    1. I  apologize for the flippant remark about cities.
    2. I understand now why Targossas and Eleusis can never be totally at peace. Although I like some things (not all) about Targossas, and have a few Targossan friends. :)

    One thing that hasn't changed-- I am still a Concordi, and always will be.

    I don't care to raid or Crusade myself, but the LAST thing I want is for all Eleusians to be like me. You guys are a cool bunch.

    Anyways, will still have conversation with you IG if you want. :)
    Rangor
  • LintonLinton Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Necroing this thread as I believe there is too little representation on the part of the so labelled 'pacifists' side of the disunity within Eleusis, and at the same time, too much misrepresentation of them by others in the absence of their voice in the forums.

    These 'pacifists' are portrayed as hating all fighting and will impede other people from engaging in it. This is a misrepresentation that arise out of a lack of understanding on how other people's relationship with Achaea can differ from one's own experience.

    Players who play for the non-combat aspects of the game exist in EVERY city, even the most militant ones. Yet they do not have the same problem or same degree of friction as that of Eleusis. How are the 'pacifists' in Eleusis so different from their counterparts in other cities?

    The answer is, there is really no difference. The underlying cause of the divide has never been about pacifists versus combatants, as appear to be the sole axis being offered in this thread.

    Consider this. At least during pre-Ren, the forestal faction has been known for its 'zerg rush' when the forests come under threat. What this means is, players who do not usually care for combat often take part in defense when an actual transgression against Nature occurs. Those who do not take up arms themselves will also support those who do when they believe violence is called for.

    These 'pacifists' are not pacifists at all. They will fight or support fighting when they believe the cause and reason justified. So then why the divide in Eleusis? What is the cause? Perhaps the clue lies in the very title of this thread : "A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-"

    Yes it is the RP that comes with the Renaissance(Ren) that has caused this long drawn out divide with no end in sight. Overnight, "the village of Eleusis, home of forestals" becomes "the village of the Order of Gaia, named Eleusis". Suddenly, there is the Viridian Charter authored by Gaia that all Eleusians have to abide by. It speaks of anti-civilization and the ultimate victory of Nature at the very end.

    Now, people who joined Eleusis before the Ren joined so because it was the community for all forestals(the village's founding purpose). They did not join to become members of an Order, or they would have joined the Order.

    Consider also, Nature is a very physical and tangible reality for a forestal's beliefs. It is not some creed-based system relying on scriptures or truths. The attempt to turn something so secular into a religion is not easily accepted by those who play characters that truly love Nature for itself.

    This is also why, even though one might think(or hoped for by others) that after such a long time, the divide will slide in favour of those who support the Charter, that has not happened at all. Even though new members have to swear by the Charter from their Day 1, they more often than not join the Nature faction for Nature and not for some God's vision about it.

    If we accept this explanation - that the RP is the cause of the divide, and not because of 'bad pacifists', then we can see why arguments(in this thread) like "But we left you an entire house, the Heartwood Kin, to do as you have always done" or "But there's this clause that says you do not have to do any of the anti-civilization stuff, Nature will win regardless of what you do" are really irrelevant to the subject. They are actually really degrading.

    Most of us join a community to be truly with like minded people and working towards the same cause, for the comradery whether as a combatant or administrator or any other role. It is no different for the forestals. Sectioning a huge portion of the community to go 'play house' and pretend everything is just as before is either an attempt at degradation or a display of insensitivity.

    Yes, even the forestals who do not cry for bloodshed care about the world, care about the forestals part in it. They want to be able to leave their mark on it. If Achaea is a living storybook, they do not want to already know the ending, much less the one offered by the Viridian Charter. What is there to live for if the ending is fixed? How much worse this becomes when you tell them they don't have to do anything and Nature will not only survive but actually 'win'? There is already a faction for nihilists and Chaos really suits their theme, not Nature.

    Still find it hard to understand why the divide exists?

    Regardless, the hard cold truth is that it does. Someone has suggested Gaia became dormant because she can't handle the divide. Many others have gone dormant because of it. Some prominent giant figures of the Nature community literally showed us their broken hearts in the public and poetry newsboard saying goodbye in the aftermath. How can this divide be mended?

    More than one person suggested that those who do not abide by the new order should leave. I believe that to be unfair. Even though ICly, the new anti-civilization stance is a product of Gaia, oocly, people guessed and probably rightly so that this new directive is actually the birthchild of a few players.

    Why should the majority of players condemn their characters to roguehood (the Heartwood kin outsizing the Scions by a few fold at the time) because of the action of the minority? Bear in mind, no other player based forestal communities exist outside of Eleusis. Of less importance, no cities are allowed to accept any members of the three forestal classes.

    Also if all players who do not care for Gaian ideology left Eleusis at the time after the Renaissance, I suspect those that remain will be too small to sustain itself efficiently. But that besides the point.

    I would like to suggest something. What someone posted in this thread makes alot of sense: "You want a place in Eleusis? Accept that the "violent" forestals have a place in Eleusis too and learn to get along already."

    Brilliant, as this can also mean that one should accept that the people who treats Nature as Nature and nothing more, exists in Eleusis and get along with them. This and the above really should be the case and yet this getting along is not allowed to happen because the Viridian Charter really only favours one side.

    I propose then the Viridian Charter be moved to the househall of the Scions. Afterall, Scions' ideology is practically the Charter itself. Just as the 'peaceful' people should not impose on the whole of Eleusis with their ideals as suggested by the other forumer, why then should the 'violent' people lord over everyone and dictate Eleusian(Eleusian as in everyone including Heartwood) foreign policy with the Charter backing them.

    Or are the 'violent' people so unconfident of their ideals that they must rely on this free win card that they deem backed by the admin? Are they so unconfident that they will not promote/roleplay their ideals on a level playing field to the bigger entity that is Eleusis?

    This solution I propose means that Eleusis at any point in time in the future, is only as anti-civilization as the collective will of its people. As opposed to a static state of constant maximum anti-civilization, Eleusis now has a chance to shift its foreign policy based on consensus/election of leaders. And this consensus will shift based on the political power that each side has. For instance, a charismatic and convincing anti-civilization leader may sway the Eleusian population towards a strong anti-civilization stance for a period of decades while he/she is active and vice-versa.

    Advantage of this is, players in Eleusis can play the political game and leave their mark by creating chapters in history that stand out. The state of Eleusis and by extension, the world, becomes affectable by players. While it may seems that this solution does not mend the division, which is true. I believe it will turn the schism into a healthier one as it allows both side to fairly compete. Other than that, I do not see how the schism can be closed without rewriting the ideals of one of the two houses.

    Another healthy sign that was given to us by the admin that may support this idea is this:

      the admin said on page 698 of the Quotes thread - "Just a coincidence, there's no consolidated push to make cities to conform to that template. "

    The template being referred to is one where the Gods are at the very top of the city hierarchy. This statement by the admin was also proven recently during a recent Hashan coup to convert it to religious rule. The coup was allowed to be overturned by consensus from the Hashani population. Elections were held and the results honoured without any admin interference thus returning Hashan to secular rule once more. I have faith that if a 'DArkness Charter' suddenly appears in Hashan, the admin will allow consensus to overturn it.

    I hope this brings you hope, Eleusis. Good luck, forestals! Have faith that Achaea indeed has player-run cities!

    KiahLennTorinnMagenta
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,062 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    holy fuck this needs a tldr
    AustereMathildaIniar
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,930 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    TL;DR: Delete Eleusis.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • KiahKiah Member Posts: 68 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 13
    jesus...
     @Aegoth can you not be a dick for two seconds? If you don't want to read it then don't read it and shut -up-. Whoever this guy is, he's intelligent and it's refreshing to read something someone has put actual thought into. Honestly, he's put more time into writing a post than I ever could have, but that doesn't deserve any disrespect. piss off, aegoth, you jackass. 
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,062 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiah said:
    jesus...
     @Aegoth can you not be a dick for two seconds? If you don't want to read it then don't read it and shut -up-. Whoever this guy is, he's intelligent and it's refreshing to read something someone has put actual thought into. Honestly, he's put more time into writing a post than I ever could have, but that doesn't deserve any disrespect. piss off, aegoth, you jackass. 

    Caelan
  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Can't we fix this?
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,930 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The current stubbornness/selfishness displayed by some players pretty much impedes any chance for self-mediation.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Austere
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 604 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Linton said:

    Or are the 'violent' people so unconfident of their ideals that they must rely on this free win card that they deem backed by the admin? Are they so unconfident that they will not promote/roleplay their ideals on a level playing field to the bigger entity that is Eleusis?
    No, it's just that this doesn't work. Not because there is anything inherently weaker about the militant RP, but because you will almost never convince the non-violent types that a violent stance is called for.

    You can try and try and try, but most of them just plain do not like combat and so they'll never change their mind. Same reason you can never change the mind of the combatants; they like combat and won't agree to a role that reduces it.
    Blujixapug
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Eleusis has two choices:

    (1) embrace the volunteer godmins that it gets, and have awesome stuff

    or

    (2) keep them at arm's length, after which they'll quickly lose interest and move on. No awesome stuff.

    From my time in Eleusis (both on Mathilda, and an alt I made because <3 druid), the Viridian Charter isn't really a Gaian theocracy, like what a very stubborn sector of Eleusis would frequently say. It is, simply, a framework that allows Eleusis to be more than just a defender. The only reason why this stubborn section of the Eleusian playerbase goes against it is because it all happened with the support of the most recent Gaia. They pushed the panic button, "Oh no, theocratic takeover!" without giving it a chance to grow.


     <3 
    RangorMelodieExelethril
  • MelodieMelodie MhaldorMember Posts: 4,476 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This thread makes me angry.

    The charter was made and approved during my time in Eleusis, which was a fair while before the Ren.

    Please treat your volunteers with less suspicion and more support. Even if you don't understand why they did something, talk to them about it. You're in a place where such was not only possible, but very encouraged. 

    Gaia took so many punches for you guys. Miss you, Gaia. :(
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    Cailin
  • CoamenelCoamenel Member Posts: 186 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I missed a lot of events while I was inactive, for a good 200-ish IG years, so I missed the re-doing of houses and the introduction of the Viridian Charter. I started out in the Sentinel Guild got moved into the Sentinels of Nature, slumbered and finally ended up in the Scions. Basically, I have to analyze a situation based on what was said here (amongst other places). From what I've read, @Alrena post is pretty much right on the money.

    I think it's important to note that Eleusis never was very unified during the time of the original houses, at least not from what I have seen. I was in the Sentinels, and only joined Eleusis because it made sense to join. It was house before village. While I suspect other factions were the other way around.

    I think that putting the Charter in the Scions househalls and call it their ideology solely is a very good demonstration of why Eleusis got FURTHER divided. There is a group of people in Eleusis who say 'fuck you very much' to the Charter and primarily the interpretation of the fourth 'iron and stone' tenet. My problem with that group is two-fold. Firstly, they do not wish to speak out in public, but remain plotting and scheming in the shadows. It has calmed down quite a bit now that we are under pressure from Mhaldor, but I'm sure it will return once that is done with. Second, I have not spoken to a single individual, or heard of one, that actually thought that a 'passive' interpretation of that tenet was a no-go. Most 'combat clique' people don't really care if you don't want to join in raids and shit. So I really don't understand why we, the combat clique, are being driven away so badly.

    Can we fix it? I doubt that, I've been in Eleusis for well over ten years and there was always a bit of a tension between groups. I think in order to fix the division, both groups should start to appreciate each other. I've been told that some people are bitter over us striking back at a raiding party because by doing so, we are forcing them to help defend when that in turn backfires at us. In other words, if we are under attack, please don't attack back. The point is, for some people, that is what achaea is mainly about. Striking and striking back. I myself care very little for rituals and whatnot, but they exist and I accept that, hell I even participate in them. So why grief people over doing what -they- like? As I said, a little appreciation or at least understanding for the 'other side' would go a long way I reckon.

    Somewhat but not completely related note to the admin:
    Can we please have Artemis back? There is at least a group of people in Eleusis that would love to have an active Matron back!
    CailinShayde
  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Coamenel said:
    a lot of stuff
    This just makes me so sad. It's just as simple as both groups appreciating each other and not making each other be like them. I'm a new player obviously and don't know what all has gone down in the past, but it seems SO easy to fix. If people would just cooperate.
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,930 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Harmony in Achaea died with Tarah, obvi!
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Cailin
  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Krypton said:
    Harmony in Achaea died with Tarah, obvi!

    Bring Her back. It's the only way. =)
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,606 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just going to throw out that Gaia was amazing. IC she had time for people even outside the orgs she owned. As an admin she was extrodinarily approachable and helpful, going above and beyond her role to assist people (well meat least).

    I rarely praise people, but she was exceptional.
    AhmetExelethrilAlrena
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