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A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

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  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,704Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    "Whoever can mend this rift is right, no matter what side they are on."

    Well first the would need to be this awesome being, with world-changing power and actually speak on the behalf of Nature. Impossible. They would need to this otherworldly being with the power of the Gods Themselves!!!!!1!

    -gasp- 

    Who could it be?
    Fengrich
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,858Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The home for all forestals it is.

    But what is a Forestal, what do we ask of someone so that call themselves a forestal, which responsibilities and duties do they hold? So that it does not become a meaningless title. 
    image
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Viewpoints are just viewpoints. If we are having this discussion during the time when Mhaldor was the only theocracy and players really see value in running orgs at the highest level themselves, I imagine we will be seeing completely different opinions than what we have here today.

    What I however do concede is- Since this push towards religious rule has been in place for awhile now, it means that many players who do not care for it are much more like to have already left the game. However the issue at hand is about the community in Eleusis and really should depend on the Eleusis playerbase only to determine what they will have.

    Hearing from Rangor that talks are happening between the conflicting sides makes me feel like my 'job' here is done. Not that I feel I have accomplished anything concrete, but I do hope that I have brought up some things worthy of consideration, especially to those lurkers who might be listening in.

    Important points I feel I have brought up or hinted at:

    1) admin are not pushing cities to be run at the highest level by Gods(From the quote from admin from the quotes thread). There is still room for choice.

    2) the ic/ooc roles of Gods/Patrons. Just as a god can oocly install a theocracy on behalf of players, they should also be able to remove a theocracy if that is the wish of the players. A clear separation of roles. It is not slapping a God's face to do that. Again, back when Mhaldor was the only theocracy, there are alot of Gods around then than now. You don't see them going dormant because they can't be the head of state. There are things such as Orders. They also have influences in cities even if they are not the highest voice. I imagine Gods would enjoy roleplay gaining influence instead of just having an entire city handed to them regardless of the quality of their roleplay.

    3) readiness of an org for something huge like switching government type. There is nothing inherently wrong with a theocracy. What no one has mentioned is, the suitability of one for a particular org. It seems the consensus on the forums is: theocracies are good for all cities of all ideology. There is also no talk about the timeliness of instating a theocracy. Is a city(its citizens) ready for one? I feel this is important as if we get the timing/prep work wrong, we lose chunks of players and much like the situation we have today.
     
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 500Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Again, and this goes out to other factions that are facing the same issue (h a s h a n): embracing the godmins of your faction does not necessarily equate to a theocratic form of government.

    In fact, I personally am against theocracies, because they are far too reliant on having active volunteers in those particular god roles. From what I understand, for example, Mhaldor and Targossas stagnated heavily back when Sartan or Deucalion/Aurora weren't active.

    The best scenarios are when godmins only lay down the law every once in a while, to provide a short-term Fun goal for their faction, while the management of the faction itself is left mostly to players. For example, in Eleusis's case, the players decide who the current Biggest Enemy is, who they'll tolerate for the time being, or what not. But now and again Gaia will say, "Hey, let's fully reclaim Darkenwood once and for all" and Eleusis would happily comply, because Darkness and Hashan really and truly aren't pro-Nature.

    What ends up happening, unfortunately, is that players completely defy their godmin and cozy up to any and all sort of Hashani or Targossian because "I'm free to be friends with whomever I like!". No, that's not going to work. That is detrimental to the strong Nature faction that the game needs. You cannot be friends with everyone as-is: even those who you're 'friendly' with, you should seek to convert to your side.
     <3 
    AerekTahquilCailin
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 17
    For example, in Eleusis's case, the players decide who the current Biggest Enemy is, who they'll tolerate for the time being, or what not. But now and again Gaia will say, "Hey, let's fully reclaim Darkenwood once and for all" and Eleusis would happily comply,....

    @Mathilda Hehe, I really like the way you say this. This is actually quite nice a scenario to imagine.

    .... because Darkness and Hashan really and truly aren't pro-Nature.
    Not this though. I mean yah, Hashan isn't pro-Nature, but it isn't anti-Nature either. Hashan was established hundreds of years ago, and during that time there was alot of anger towards it. But many many years and decades later, there was already a warming of relations. If you read  public 12220, the author was talking about a Eleueis-Hashan alliance in the works. And coincidentally, at public 12225, Rangor was defending such a possible alliance. This shows the relationship between the states have already normalised if we want to care about the chronological progress of Achaea's history/storyline, all the work and accomplishments by its past players and how they steer the plot to where we are today. Of course maybe more things have happened since then that I know not about. But Hashan is not inherently anti-Nature.

    So Eleusian beings friends with Hashanis, I do not find that to be anything offensive. I think such a view only arise recently as people push for factional gameplay(ie no alliances, one state vs all states). This however is really more an ooc originated push. This is good for the combat side of things, but not very interesting for the storyline, which is why in more recent public news, you only see people praising their own ideology while putting down those of others. You don't see alot of diplomacy, which I personally find interesting.

    @Rangor
    But what is a Forestal, what do we ask of someone so that call themselves a forestal, which responsibilities and duties do they hold? So that it does not become a meaningless title. 
     I guess that's up to the community, isn't that its primary function, to determine its identity? It cannot be up to individual. If you have an idea of what a forestal is, so does the guy next to you. If you think the other guy's idea of a forestal is meaningless, maybe he's thinking the same about yours. I guess that's why we have referendums and elections as tools in the game. The admin though can fix the definition if they want but so far they still seem content to leave it to the players.

    @Tahquil
    Well first the would need to be this awesome being, with world-changing power and actually speak on the behalf of Nature. Impossible. They would need to this otherworldly being with the power of the Gods Themselves!!!!!1!
    No, you cannot force devotion/agreement, even as a God. The only way is for the two conflicting parties to work something out. Unless of course you do not mind losing players or you are perfectly willing to dismiss a group of players as 'useless' and is therefore no loss to the game if driven out, then I guess yah.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,036Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    All I have to say right now is that thank God Linton is not part of my city. I would hate to have to deal with delusional bullshit like he spews.

    AegothRangor
  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    How do you know so much shit, Mathilda.
    Proof of Concepts: Sailing Map, Trading
    "It's not rocket surgery."

  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I feel like this is my fault, I apologize Eleusis. ;-;
  • TorrentTorrent Posts: 39Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Achimrst said:
    I feel like this is my fault, I apologize Eleusis. ;-;
    How was it your fault? This has been a long time coming.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Torrent said:
    Achimrst said:
    I feel like this is my fault, I apologize Eleusis. ;-;
    How was it your fault? This has been a long time coming.
    I was just making a joke @Torrent I like to feel self-centered and like everything is about me sometimes. :bleep_bloop:
    XadenMathildaFengrich
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,704Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Linton No matter who the directive comes from, be it Gods or Players, there are still going to people feel put out, dismissed as useless and leave. Why? Because in your own words:  It cannot be up to individual. If you have an idea of what a forestal is, so does the guy next to you. If you think the other guy's idea of a forestal is meaningless, maybe he's thinking the same about yours.

    Has there ever been an election or referendum in which 100% of the citizenry have been content and happy? Always there will be the group who the votes didn't swing their way that will cross their arms and pout. Unfortunately, when you have the Goddess of Nature appear to tell you about Nature, you can't dismiss Her idea as meaningless. IC She is the Goddess of Nature. Period. There shouldn't be any more arguing than this. OOCly she is one of your many DMs. She is trying to run and interesting and exciting campaign for you but you keep insitsing that she's not the DM, just another player so you'll ignore her guidance and will spend your first 2 sessions piddling around the starting town instead of embarking on the quests she and the other 8 DMs have consulted and spent 3 weeks putting together for you.

    Now These two quotes :
    "No, you cannot force devotion/agreement, even as a God. The only way is for the two conflicting parties to work something out. Unless of course you do not mind losing players or you are perfectly willing to dismiss a group of players as 'useless' and is therefore no loss to the game if driven out, then I guess yah."

    See Shallam's history of splintered internal factions, player (and god) dilution of their city identity and the resulting adminstrative decision to destroy the city and rebuilding of the Factional identity by forcibly telling the players that were seen as useless and detrimental, "Get on the Zealot train or get out of fuck town."

    "I guess that's up to the community, isn't that its primary function, to determine its identity?"

    Again, I'd disagree with both these statements. The identity of the of the cities and definition of the cities are determined by the administration. These are the alignments you agree to play when you are part of a city. The admin have defined the citiy identities, but the players are allowed to direct how they should go about fitting the pre-defined administrative placed city identities.
    Cailin
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 500Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Tysandr said:
    How do you know so much shit, Mathilda.
    when i'm bashing, half my screen is mudlet and the other half is the achaea wiki

    don't jump me when i bash pls
     <3 
    HalosShaydeTysandrCailin
  • TorrentTorrent Posts: 39Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    In my opinion, I would agree it would be better to scrap the entire idea and start fresh. The main issue we had was the merging of the old pacifist ideas of old with the new expansionist views of Nature. It just has never taken well to it and there has always been a deep-seated resentment to that idea even to the point people wanted to change the Viridian Charter to suit their needs, which was a stupid idea. This same problem happened with Shallam in past and it is basically happening now in the future. It is a much better idea to just scrap the concept of "Eleusis" and just start a new one, kick everyone out, then create a new village/city with the key of this is how it's going to be either get in or get out. Granted it would sadden me to see all the hard work that people have done over the years go to waste, but if the egos in power or behind the scenes can't get there act together then so be it. From what I am seeing that is where it is headed.

    As for Cyrene, if Cyrene wants to go forestal now more power to them it would seem as a success for the forestal community in their attempts of preaching to more commune with Nature so I don't think they would have an issue with it though that is just me.
    ExelethrilCailin
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Some thoughts on how reunification in Eleusis might be achieved.

    As it stands, the Heartwood-domestic and Scions-external separation of duties is not an arrangement that allows either side to understand their fellow Eleusians. Their spheres of activity are also too far apart to allow any dependencies or chance to mesh or form comradrie. It easily encourages alienation, misunderstandings and then things become 'us here and them there' instead of 'we are in this together'.

    For the two houses to unite, they must share the same goal. Another way to see this is, a scion represents not only his own house, but the whole of Eleusis including Heartwood. Whatever he does must come with the full support of every Eleusian. Same for a Heartwood Kin. This is not the case now, because the houses do not share the same goal.

    Scions are anti-civilization and expansionist-Nature. Heartwood are assigned - 'defenders/nurturers of Nature', which are really more activities than ideals. To achieve unity, the two houses must have the same overarching goal/ideal. Here is where a compromise can be met. Here is also where common ground must be found.

    This shared goal/ideal must be one that will satisfy the RP sense of Heartwood so that they can link their pre-Ren reality to the post-Ren one they have to live in today. This was not well done before, and caused alot of unhappiness. It is not simply about being anti-Gaia, or anti-conflict as often misunderstood.

    This shared goal/ideal must at the same time satisfy those who wants to be more than defenders of the forest. It must allow the raiding of cities. It must also -explain- why Eleusis raiding cities is supporting Nature or necessary. This explanation must make sense to the RP people or they will only see it as warmongering that their RP cannot in their conscience, support.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Narrative of how this shared goal can be reached:


    When the forces of Good built their new home Targossas, they created a city many times larger than needed to house their refugees, thus destroying large parts of Nature wastefully. Even though Eleusis had long accepted the right of cities to exist, it was only then that they acutely realized stronger stance against the greedy civilized world had to be taken or Nature would be in serious danger some day.

    And so they began. Eleusian forces were sent out to reclaim Nature's lost lands. While the campaign met with some small success early on, it soon became clear that the cities of Sapience were already too strong to be easily defeated.

    At the same time, the strain of war had aleady began to threatened the peace at home as many Eleusians grew weary and demoralized.

    It was then decided that the cities were already too established and that it could no longer be denied that civilization has its place upon the world.

    Resigning themselves to this fact, the Eleusians adopted a new policy. Instead of expanding into civilization, they now seek to protect the borders of Nature. If civilization cannot be eradicated, then its growth must be stopped or at least hindered whenever possible.

    Thus the two houses of Eleusis evolved, as all entities must if they are to survive this ever changing world....

    Scions are the military experts of Eleusis. They lead frequent raids into the cities of Achaea to demonstrate to the city-dwellers the strength and will of Nature's defenders. These raids serve to discourage the cities from making expansion into Nature's lands for should they do so, they will be met with the true military might of the Village that will make the raids look like games. These raids are also a way for Eleusian soldiers to train and gain knowledge of each city's capabilities and strategies in preparation for any actual war. (main overarching ideal: Containment of Civilization)

    Heartwood takes the softer approach in their part to contribute to this new policy of containment. They are tasked to educate and influence city-dwellers the value of conserving Nature. They are also largely involved with tending to Nature though not exclusively so. Some also take part in raids under the leadership of Scions etc.(main overarching ideal: Containment of Civilization)

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Explaining raids:

    It is important to explain to the people what these raids into cities(outside Mhaldor) are, so they make RP sense. Deterrent against civilization's expansion + training and intel gathering of each other's capabilities especially for cities with their own unique classes in preparation for an actual expansion into Nature, are very valid reasons that will not assail a Heartwood's sensibilities.

    Raids are not wars. They last approximately a day. Wars go on for months and years. A way for combatants to train just like how hunters sometimes wipe out entire communuties to train themselves.

    If this new way of looking at raids is accepted, then raids can cease to become 'warmongering' with no RP justification. Other avenues of approach towards the same goal can be conducted in parallel with raids, like educating/trade/diplomacy.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Solving contradictions:

    Since Eleusis now accept that civilization has its place in the world, it is no longer as hypocritical for them to use swords or classes or whatever technology from civilization. Eleusis won't have to deal with this argument anymore.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    RP justification in itself is not enough. Heartwood must also be part of the whole raiding business not apart from it. They must be given some say, since they have to bear the consequences of raids when retaliation comes. A veto power is thus given to them:

    For every 5 year term, Heartwood has the power/option to exempt 2 cities(outside Mhaldor) from raids for the duration of the term. This means that at any one time, Eleusis can raid a minimum of 3 cities. To prevent perma-exemption, no city can be exempted for more than two terms in a row.

    This gives Heartwood:

    1) a limited way to control the amount of repercussions, since a city that isn't raided is less likely to attack Eleusis.

    2) focus military force on choice targets.

    3) take friendlier approaches with exempted targets.

    4) a role on the world stage. A diplomatic tool to RP with cities. eg: when Eleusis' military is strong, a badly raided city might buy exemption in exchange of lecture rights in the city or a signed agreement to not expand into Nature for the duration of the exemption, posted to public post. This is of course dependent on playerbase overall willingness to RP.

    5) Most importantly, a way to include Heartwood. Equals must share power.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Implementation:

    The statement that Eleusis is about the containment of Civilization must be reflected in newcomers introduction clearly. It must be imparted to newcomers from the start the importance of this goal. Without containment, civilization will just grow and grow. Explain everything clearly from the start, which will make RP sense and does not clash with their own perception about Nature(it should not, since in the real world, Civilization has indeed grown out of control), so that future division are less likely to happen.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    On theocracy and Gaia:

    Since Gaia was originally used as a vehicle to change Eleusis' identity to allow it to become more than 'defenders only when the forest in under threat', if this plan can be adopted by both sides, satisfying the needs of both sides, then the whole contention of Gaia or theocracy naturally becomes moot. I imagine most people are not really anti-Gaia. They just dont like the way the switch was implemented. OOCly, they know Gaia is just a proxy, but ICly Gaia is the front so they have to resist Her in game in order to be sane with their RP.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    PS @Tahquil I get what you are saying. Since admin does not appear ready to make Eleusis into another crater, that is where I work from. You gave very good points. alot depends on how much admin are willing to narrow down what a faction is about. I believe this to be a balancing act. Too specialized a faction means all the non specialized people have to go to Cyrene or stop playing. Too little specialization and players feel their faction is too scattered to do anything.
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 500Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Just delete Heartwood and kick everyone in it out of Eleusis. The problem = solved.
     <3 
    Kiet
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rangor said:
    Your posts are too long to read and comment on in their entirety.

    But see viridian charter for common grounds, oath, help Eleusis and precepts for what rules we must all follow. And the council sets current policy, based on members both houses have elected in Eleusis "democratic" elections. What we may be missing is a way for Eleusis to keep the houses in check if they "stray" from the so called common ground and policies that are set. That needs to be written in the precepts as laws.
    I'm bored, I'll take a crack at it.

    @Linton ;

    Some thoughts on how reunification in Eleusis might be achieved.

    As it stands, the Heartwood never cared or wanted to work with the Scions because reasons/Gaia. To reunify the individual members, such as yourself, can just hang out with and talk to them as if they were a part of your city and not some invading force within it.
    This would unite both of the houses.

    Scions are not simply anti-civilization and expansionist of Nature which shows how little you actually do know about them. Scions seek to stop cities from harming nature by throwing rocks on top of it and killing all the natural plant-life in an area. This does not make them anti-civilization, this makes them pro-Nature. In fact last I checked Scions attempted to have cities build with Wood structures rather than stone ones so that when the civilizations were destroyed by who knows what the wood would decay meanwhile the stone structures would literally have to be torn down or destroyed in some way. In fact, if you go down from the trees in Eleusis you will see that we in fact do have wooden building in Eleusis on the ground in the Eastern Ithmia that is part of the city as well as farmland that we use to grow food. This is all civilization and if Eleusis has civilization and the Scions are not calling for its destruction they are not Anti-civilization. 

    And just to ram it down more, this goal of the Scions should be a shared goal with the Heartwood as it would directly protect/defend nature. You can equate this whole thing to a fight over using Solar energy vs Nuclear energy. Scions want cities to build things that work WITH nature rather than build shit that puts a ton of rock on top of a flower and expects the flower to live happily in its new environment.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    I'm not sure where this raid stuff comes in but if Heartwood wants a larger role outside of Eleusis they should just leave the Heartwood and join the Scions. Since that is exactly what Scions are all about, in fact you already described what the Heartwood is vs what the Scions are so I'm not sure why you are fixing a contradiction you are creating. However! I see where you might be confused. Heartwood is not the Eleusian Army therefore if Eleusis is attacked you are no more forced to defend than any Scion. I can understand how you might confuse that but it is true that as defenders of Nature if you don't want to die you can hide and fix whatever broke when it's all over. Sure, it might not be the best solution, but unless you are in the Army of Eleusis which is not the Scion house than you are not obligated to defend from a raid or join a raid.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Information about Eleusis is in fact shared with Newcomers, you can go through it with the group of Eleusis City quests that you have to go through to pick a house. If the Heartwood never taught you this stuff, it is on the leadership in the Heartwood for being disinterested and uninformed about the dynamic between the houses and the city and Nature. Which is a Heartwood leadership issue and has nothing to do with Scions but might be something you want to vote out of power in Eleusis leadership since they cannot muster the strength to teach you these basic things. 

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Gaia, man, the Heartwood has had a boner for Gaia ever since it got 3 Order members and tried to become a part of Eleusian sociey as the, you know, god of the Forests/Nature. However, if  you would please go to the Eleusis library and find the book, that I know is there, on the Council of Oakstone you would quickly see that Gaia has always been about these things you are complaining about as well as Artemis. However I do see your point, you don't like having rules put onto you that are vague and open to interpretation, which the Viridian Charter is. You keep pushing one interpretation of one sentence within the Viridian Charter as this terrible thing that changes the dynamic of all of Forestal life but it, as I stated above, has different meanings to what you automatically impose on it. Iron and Stone are the enemy not Civilization, if you cannot open your mind a little to see that it is in fact talking about. Here, directly from my How to Nature guide:

    .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

    "The falsities of Iron and Stone exist only to excel the erosion of the
    world, and shall thusly be eliminated: no taint upon the earth shall be
    tolerated."

    While the tenet usually before this one doesn't apply to other cities, this tenet almost exclusively applies to all cities! This is the tenet which should always be on your mind when speaking to any city dweller as it is the fundamental difference between embracing Nature and destroying it. Houses, towers, walls, and roads are all orderly but they eradicate and exterminate all of Nature they sit upon. To equate them to an exterminated grove is really the only comparison. While a grove can be rejuvenated a house floor cannot and Nature should be seen as something more than a space to be imporved upon for personal comfort. Finding a way for cities to rectify this issue is not our decision to make though. Repaying nature for the damage done is not something we truly do and for it to be sincere and accepted it is likely Nature herself who must accept it from the cities. Yet understanding that their callous extermination of Nature for their personal comfort is key to any city finding a way commit to the reconciliation with Nature.

    .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ END
    RangorExelethrilAlrenaLinton
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,070Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hark! Your future leader of Eleusis is here!

    (Newbie): Mazdak says, "That's fine. cities are vile corruptions that must be
    destroyed any ways. so is there someone i can talk to regarding the druids cause
    they sound very interesting."

    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    MathildaKyrraSienaCailin
  • ZakkariahZakkariah Posts: 20Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Feel very ignorant but in my time as an Eleusian (basically my two IC years since creation) I haven't noticed any rift within the village. Nor heard any complaints from pacifists or combatants.

    Can someone TL;DR me the basic jist of this inner turmoil?
  • KythraKythra Posts: 258Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 20
    There's been a few TL;DRs here, just flip through. Anything from anyone outside of Linton is a credible source.
    Zakkariah
  • ZakkariahZakkariah Posts: 20Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    @Kythra I'll have a scroll
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