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A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

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  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,857Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 16
    Aethele said:
    There's a large chunk of the playerbase who doesn't much like combat. The high population of Cyrene makes that abundantly clear. Eleusis has a fair number of those. It's true that one forestal house shouldn't reject their divine. But it's also true that if the goal of said divine is to get everybody into PvP, that's just not going to happen. I'm not saying Gaia was at fault or the Kin are blameless. There are some major personality conflicts going on too. But this is a game and people play to have fun and if there are a bunch of people in Eleusis who don't like combat, no amount of pushing or pulling or prodding is going to change that. The noncoms need to accept that raiding is legitimate RP in terms of expanding/defending nature, combatants need to accept that rituals and patrolling are too. Both sides don't do that very well, IMO. 

    Right now there's a fiction in Eleusis that neither house is the combat house. That's not true and I think everybody would be better off accepting that and running with it. The Scions have serious combat requirements to advance, the Kin don't. The Kin have a patrol requirement, the Scions don't. Better to just call it what it is. Maybe that will let some of the pressure off. 

    No Eleusian God has ever been interested in getting everyone into PvP. The Scions isn't a combat house, it's just you insisting that we are because we have a majority of people interested in combat. Both Houses can be interesting to combatants, and should in no way be limited to that. Being interested in combat, does not exclude doing other things either. The Eleusian Rangers, and the Army is the "combat" faction in Eleusis. You don't have to be in either. The Scions does not have serious combat requirements to advance, we have extremely basic combat requirements to advance. They basically consist of type "curing on" and "enter the arena". The Kin should also have that unless they abandoned it for some reason. I think the problem is in your head more than the structure of Eleusis.

    Also, if you're spouting this bullshit IG, I'd go as far to say that you are more a part of the problem than it is likely you will ever be a part of the solution.
    image
    KietTahquilExelethrilKyrra
  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 116Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    As an aside, if someone hasn't made their point by the fifth sentence in their essays, they probably don't have a point to make.
    Proof of Concepts: Sailing Map, Trading
    "It's not rocket surgery."

    Xaden
  • MarisellaMarisella Posts: 149Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aethele said:
    The Scions have serious combat requirements to advance, the Kin don't. 

    What's considered serious combat requirements...? The only combat tasks I know to get HR5 is to complete the original Greenhorn requirements, (not the basic training which Alrena modified and you guys kept after it was abolished.) If learning what your class skills do is considered serious requirements, then...
  • TorrentTorrent Posts: 39Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    JUST HIT THE BIG RED RESET BUTTON!!!!!
    Exelethril
  • AetheleAethele Posts: 39Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rangor said:
    Aethele said:
    @Atalkez As long as "support Us and your fellow citizens" also includes being suppliers and teaching novices and handling city/house organization, sure. If it means, "You must be willing to raid/defend any time We feel like it," Eleusis is going to lose a lot of people. The playerbase is mostly older now, lots of parents and working people. People who don't want to PvP aren't going to PvP. So if you want all those people shoved into Cyrene, I guess that's fine, but I think that's not good for the game as a whole. 
    It has never been that, and no one has ever tried to make it into that.
    Yup, I agree. That was in response to what Atalkez seemed to want. 
    Cailin
  • AetheleAethele Posts: 39Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rangor said:
    Aethele said:
    There's a large chunk of the playerbase who doesn't much like combat. The high population of Cyrene makes that abundantly clear. Eleusis has a fair number of those. It's true that one forestal house shouldn't reject their divine. But it's also true that if the goal of said divine is to get everybody into PvP, that's just not going to happen. I'm not saying Gaia was at fault or the Kin are blameless. There are some major personality conflicts going on too. But this is a game and people play to have fun and if there are a bunch of people in Eleusis who don't like combat, no amount of pushing or pulling or prodding is going to change that. The noncoms need to accept that raiding is legitimate RP in terms of expanding/defending nature, combatants need to accept that rituals and patrolling are too. Both sides don't do that very well, IMO. 

    Right now there's a fiction in Eleusis that neither house is the combat house. That's not true and I think everybody would be better off accepting that and running with it. The Scions have serious combat requirements to advance, the Kin don't. The Kin have a patrol requirement, the Scions don't. Better to just call it what it is. Maybe that will let some of the pressure off. 

    No Eleusian God has ever been interested in getting everyone into PvP. The Scions isn't a combat house, it's just you insisting that we are because we have a majority of people interested in combat. Both Houses can be interesting to combatants, and should in no way be limited to that. Being interested in combat, does not exclude doing other things either. The Eleusian Rangers, and the Army is the "combat" faction in Eleusis. You don't have to be in either. The Scions does not have serious combat requirements to advance, we have extremely basic combat requirements to advance. They basically consist of type "curing on" and "enter the arena". The Kin should also have that unless they abandoned it for some reason. I think the problem is in your head more than the structure of Eleusis.

    Also, if you're spouting this bullshit IG, I'd go as far to say that you are more a part of the problem than it is likely you will ever be a part of the solution.
    I don't get into city politics in game, I patrol and teach novices. But thanks for your kind words. 
  • KietKiet Posts: 1,983Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you're teaching novices that kind of stuff, though...
  • AetheleAethele Posts: 39Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kiet said:
    If you're teaching novices that kind of stuff, though...
    Yes, I definitely lecture novices on my OOC thoughts about how the houses should be structured. That makes total sense. 
  • KietKiet Posts: 1,983Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A lot of people in Eleusis do, so it does!
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 214Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm pretty sure houses and people flat out denied/defied gods and their mandates in shallam, for the record, and there were years of subversion of admin effort. 
  • CadakCadak Posts: 1Member
    From what I've seen and heard and read, pre-Renaissance Eleusis was a community mostly focusing on player interaction, not Divine influence. When Eleusis was founded, it wasn't credited to Gaia, no matter how much she was the Goddess of Nature back then, and it wasn't credited to Lupus, to Demeter, to Neraeos, to Kastalia, to Aegis, to whomever was patron of the city-state - patronage played a rather subliminal role. It was credited mostly to Covenant and a small group of other people behind the scenes, who were reportedly fed up with Hashan and Shallam and the Sentinels not having a city-state to live in properly. And even with a large number of Druids choosing not to get citizenship in Eleusis, there was still Oakstone as a get-to without question, and a good number of Druids chose Oakstone as their administrative home. Or to just be rogues and sit in their grove all day. They had a choice. There was always an organisation that somehow connected them (e.g. the Druids guild/House).

    Now, you don't only not have Oakstone and Eleusis as optional organisations. You have Eleusis as the SOLE, mandatory city-state that every forestal MUST join and support. Because Eleusis embodies Nature. Because there are no other organisations that make sense for a forestal to join - there's no Fianna, no Council of Oakstone, no guilds, no Houses that are not directly tied to Eleusis. Plus, you have a situation where every faction in post-Renaissance Achaea is dominated, controlled, and directed by a divine and their followers. Factions without an active matron/patron don't have it easy. They actually have it hard and need to compromise on many things.

    Personally, my impression is that the old Druidic mindset, the nurturers, those who seek to live peacefully and explore other facets of Achaea than fighting, survives. It survives because people were not given any time to move to neo-Eleusis, because the Renaissance and the Viridian Charter were shoved down their throats, and - at least as far as I've heard - were not given any opportunity to participate and discuss in this formerly player-dominated community. There is a reason why Mhaldor or Targossas don't choose their leaders democratically, and there's a reason why other city-states do. Druids and many other elder forestals value their freedom much higher. The old Druidic mindset - that is not just limited to Druid class/House ex-members, but was a dominant factor in the old forestal community as a whole - will also continue to be a thorn in the side of neo-Eleusis until it is allowed to have a suitable place in the community and isn't just the laughing stock of neo-Eleusian power players.

    The process of alienation began with the Viridian Charter and the way it was introduced (see above), but particularly also with the way it was promoted. IG you had those who saw it as a unique chance of finally making Eleusis a serious player on the scene  (Alrena or Rangor explained this very thoroughly and well in this thread), and you had others, who, at some point, were forced into either shutting up or quietly leaving the scene altogether due to some rather hostile and unpretty behaviour by players and Divine. The Heartwood and other pre-Renaissance forestals never officially resisted the Charter, probably because they didn't have a choice. Ever wondered why the Heartwood only have Artemis as their matron, and both Eleusis and the Scions have Gaia as well? I don't, because I assume that the same hostility that was displayed in the Charter's intro and put-through was applied there, too.

    There's a chance for healing, but you gotta not ridicule the people who try to make their stance public here. And you also gotta stop threatening people with announces like "you're part of the problem, not part of the solution", making them feel even less appreciated than they already might be. If you want that community to heal, try to be inclusive, not shutting out people who don't follow your specific mindset. You should see where it's led you so far.
    RyzanLennAetheleCailin
  • MelodieMelodie MhaldorPosts: 4,530Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just to re-state what has already been said about the Charter - it was ratified by the Council of the time before it was introduced to Eleusis as a whole, and it was introduced about 30-40 IC years before the Ren. They are not, ultimately, related. Every city had to go through the Ren, it was up to the city to decide how to handle such. Eleusis chose to act as they did, which was very poorly.
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    Achimrst
  • AlrenaAlrena Posts: 531Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Cadak said:
    Ever wondered why the Heartwood only have Artemis as their matron, and both Eleusis and the Scions have Gaia as well? I don't, because I assume that the same hostility that was displayed in the Charter's intro and put-through was applied there, too.


    Nope, never wondered. I know that the Heartwood Kin's leaders outright refused Gaia as their Patron. If it was up to them completely, they would've picked Valnurana as Patron, actually. So yes, there was hostility, but you imply it's from Gaia(ns) to the Kin, but it was quite assuredly the other way around. Though I won't claim certain followers of Gaia were always nice either.

    As for teaching novices your views: if you teach them that the Scions are the extremist combat House, then yes. You are part of the problem. Want to fix it? Talk to the Scions, learn what they're actually about. Teach -that- to novices. You are now part of the solution.

    Also stop relying on hear-say. As Melodie said in the post above mine, that's not how the Charter was introduced at all. This has been mentioned several times in this thread now. It's incredible how many Eleusians just blindly believe something because an 'elder' said it, even when it's a ridiculous and blatant lie.
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    ExelethrilKietAchimrst
  • KythraKythra Posts: 257Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Eleusis just needs to be burned down. Or the HWK. The people are extremely toxic, deluded, and have no idea what they're talking about and believe themselves higher than Nature (Gaia) and remain adamant like that. x.x

    Just #shallam Eleusis or the Kin
    ExelethrilAchimrst
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Let's try this again.

    For those of you that say that it would be ridiculous to say that Gaia should not be ruling voice of Nature and Eleusis, does that mean that the forestals have gotten it wrong for hundreds of in game years before this resurgence of Gaia and were just fumbling along? Forestals have in the past, as they have now, rejected Gaia when they did not agree with Her, they have their own house ideals about Nature that has nothing to do with Gaia or any singular God. Were they all wrong?

    Now talk ideology. Imagine this. A completely new player wanting to play a good character comes to Achaea and mistakenly joins Targ thinking Good = good. You can correct him by saying Good is about upholding Creation and he will get it - Achaea Good =/= good. How can then he know more about Good? Aha! You give them scripture from the Divine of Good.

    Same for Evil. Evil is not about being a maniac, it's a creed revolving around Strength. It is lawful and orderly. How then can he know more about Evil? Aha! You give them the Seven Truths.

    Now try do this with Nature. You tell them Nature =/= nature in an attempt to tie them to ideology. What then can you tell them about Nature that is different from nature? Nothing. So then you tell them Nature is like nature but you must also listen to the words of the Divine of Nature. Then they will ask, so.. what does the Divine of Nature has to say?

    You then tell them, read up the Virdian Charter... words left by Gaia.

    But what does the Charter gives them? Iron and stone(structures and walls of civilization) are bad for Nature. Huh? They already know that, no different from nature.

    Then you tell them how Nature would win at the end. Huh? But they come to Eleusis, the only home for forestals so they can defend Nature, and Nature in this world gonna win anyway? This also does not add to the definition of Nature but is merely a prophecy of the end of Achaea.

    From here, it should be very clear Nature is extremely unsuitable as an ideology or a religion. There is literally nothing any Divine can add to make Nature just an Achaean thing unlike Good or Evil. Even if there is, that would be like discounting the hundreds of years in Achaea when it is not.

    Now then we come to the drive of post-Ren Eleusis, anti-civilization and expansionist-Nature. These simply sound like aggressive policies right? They do not in any way an integral part of the definition of Nature.

    Now when people fight those policies, are they really going against Nature? And why should they not fight those policies? For hundreds of years Eleusis has accepted the existence of cities and have more or less adopted a co-existence attitude towards the cities that are not actively harming Nature.

    How does pitting oneself against all cities, whether militarily or just rhetorically, help or promote Nature by the way? Who does it really help?

    So no, these people are not 'troublemakers', they are not 'special snowflakes'. They are not cancerous or a menace that should be eradicated or sent packing. If anything we can say they are being true to their RP. Or are we saying Nature does not exist before? That Nature is a modern concept?

    If you then say.. oh maybe the Charter never clearly says exactly we need to be anti-civilization or need to expand Nature's borders(it's abit cryptic afterall), maybe those are just Scions' ideals, a small section of the forestal community. Then, why does it appear like the Scions are representing the whole of Eleusis with these aggressive policies? Why does it appear like these policies are so unchallengeable that people cannot challenge them in the open?

    Maybe lines should be clearing drawn, so everyone in Eleusis would know where the boundaries are within which they can act. Policies can then be changed if that is what -the forestal community- want. If they believe that Nature is best served by focusing one's aggression against a CLEAR threat of Eleusis, the Necromancers of Mhaldor, then they can make a policy change for that and reinstate relations with the other cities.

    Anything then becomes possible and movable and thus -playable-, everything then depends on the players. How they can manipulate, persuade others, and then using ELECTIONS to determine the direction they would go. They would then be able to react to -situations-, make wars, form temporary allies, etc.

    Having a static one city against all model, and then call it 'serving Nature' is ridiculous. No it serves only the ooc wanting of free fighting with no room for change in the storytelling. It serves the ooc want of controlling and narrowing the way people play in an attempt to have the numbers to go against other factions in raids and such. This might work in other factions but not for Nature(unless Nature/Chaos/Good/etc are -pure- labels and do not have their own unique meaning). See what all your endeavours have done. Do you now have the numbers and unity you want?

    "But if we don't adopt this one city against all mode, then the people in the 'Oh Nature so pretty' group would win. There will only ever be endless grove parties... " No this is just the way you selectively -chose- to see people who exist in the world in a way different from yours, or people who play for things you cannot fathomed. These people are creating content, providing flavour, perhaps more in sub storylines than the main factional one, but they are the ones who will make Achaea feel like a world and less just a game of mechanics, and in a roleplaying game, that is invaluable. If you now say Achaea should be a game of mechanics, in that case, you are entirely right.
  • MarisellaMarisella Posts: 149Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Did you even read what I wrote, @Linton?
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,857Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Linton said:


    Now try do this with Nature. You tell them Nature =/= nature in an attempt to tie them to ideology. What then can you tell them about Nature that is different from nature? Nothing. So then you tell them Nature is like nature but you must also listen to the words of the Divine of Nature. Then they will ask, so.. what does the Divine of Nature has to say?

    See, this here is where you already go wrong.

    No one is saying Nature =/= nature....  That's just choosing to stop at the door and saying, "Hmm, I'm happy with smelling the flowers, I won't come in for the entire experience.". If teaching someone about Nature stops at "the flowers are blue and red, the trees are big and sturdy and they are sooooooo beautiful I just love them!" then we'd be missing out. The Gods and players with them, builds and gives us more lore to dig into, to study and use.  It is really annoying and disheartening when people complain and oppose that. Eleusis before Gaia, and before the Ren, was pretty worthless as a center for culture, influence in the world, or even military might... It was a nice friendly place though, and I loved it very much, but to try and go back there is backwards.

    I'll just copy paste my novice lesson on Nature.. It's not great, since I'm not the best writer, and it's been a while since I updated or used it at all, but it should get the basics through. 


    You say in a deep, rumbling voice, "Many ask what Nature is. The question is simple, but the answer may not be so easy 
    to understand. Most people will simply say that She is the trees and the grass and the bees and the flowers. In basic 
    terms it is true, these are all parts of Nature."

    You say in a deep, rumbling voice, "Nature is so so much more, so intricate, so large and complex that it is hard to 
    imagine. I like to pretend that She is one large entity, put together of millions of parts which are all connected to 
    eachother. Our world is where She lives and thrives and which She covers and claims as Her own."

    You say in a deep, rumbling voice, "For eaxmple, you can study how Nature maintains herself and keeps strong through 
    change and adaption. Through the cycle of life and death, growth and decay. Take a second and imagine a wood-plague 
    striking a forest, the effects seem devastating, trees fall in the thousands. Come spring you will see some trees remain 
    standing, those that could resist this disease. Come next spring you will see fresh green saplings rising towards the 
    sky where the old lumbering trees used to stand. Through the cycle of life and death weaknesses is eradicated and the 
    strongest and most resilient species and mechanisms thrive. There are many parts of Her that can be studied and learned 
    from. We must see, embrace and accept Her in Her entirety."

    You say in a deep, rumbling voice, "At this point in time Lady Gaia the Earthmother has once again manifestated and 
    shares Her wisdom with us. She is a manifestation of Nature. She is Nature in breath, body and essence. Through Her 
    guidance we are now alerted to threats against Nature, through Her guidance we are steered on the right path, through 
    Her guidance we are given counsel on matters related to Nature. She has even showed us how to perform Rituals that aids 
    Nature's recovery after being harmed and sees entire forests protected from Evil. This however does not mean that we can 
    sit back and idle until given a task, it is our duty to keep Nature safe from all harm. We patrol Her borders, We tend 
    to the groves, We defend her when attacked, We help Her grow and prosper and We strike at Her enemies."
    image
    TahquilExelethrilRom
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 494Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited June 17
    The Druids (house) can value their freedom all they want, but at the end of they day they are forestals and caretakers of Nature. Guess what? Gaia is the Goddess of Nature. You can cry and whine to your hearts' content, but this is the absolute truth.

    Find your place while accepting that Gaia (and Artemis) are the Nature Pantheon. It's not impossible. You're all just being petulant and obstinate at this point.
     <3 
  • AlrenaAlrena Posts: 531Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Marisella said:
    Did you even read what I wrote, @Linton?
    I'm pretty sure he doesn't read anything at all, including the Viridian Charter. I'm not gonna argue anymore on this, I said my piece and he's clearly not reading it. 
    image
    MathildaKiet
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 17
    Ok you guys have convinced me. Thanks for the nice log, @Rangor. Sorry @Alrena if it seems I wasn't getting you. Now to the problem at hand... it seems like a war of attrition here, with both sides losing people. Is there anything to be done other than waiting it out? Any room for compromises? If nothing is done, it seems Eleusis would be no better off than its pre-Ren version. Also, just so I can be clear of one thing. Is the anti-civilization/expansionist-Nature policy in Eleusis just policy and therefore changeable, or are they a fixed portion of Eleusis' identity?

    Edit: @Marisella yes I read your description of both houses. It was well written. Thank you for it.
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 494Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The anti-civilization/expansionist policy of Eleusis is, I think (and believe should be kept), unchangeable. What can be changed is the focus on how to reach this goal. There's good old military might, but there's also "preaching"/debating, spying/subterfuge, etc. There's also compromise, like planting trees all along Serpentis Boulevard or something. Vegas, baby.
     <3 
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,857Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Linton said:
    Ok you guys have convinced me. Thanks for the nice log, @Rangor. Sorry @Alrena if it seems I wasn't getting you. Now to the problem at hand... it seems like a war of attrition here, with both sides losing people. Is there anything to be done other than waiting it out? Any room for compromises? If nothing is done, it seems Eleusis would be no better off than its pre-Ren version. Also, just so I can be clear of one thing. Is the anti-civilization/expansionist-Nature policy in Eleusis just policy and therefore changeable, or are they a fixed portion of Eleusis' identity?

    Edit: @Marisella yes I read your description of both houses. It was well written. Thank you for it.
    Would it surprise you if I said the eleusis leaders are working on this? :P
    image
    Cailin
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,857Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 17
    Anti-urban-Civilization comes from the viridian charter. Expansionist-Nature is the Scions focus.
    image
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Mathilda said:
    The anti-civilization/expansionist policy of Eleusis is, I think (and believe should be kept), unchangeable. What can be changed is the focus on how to reach this goal. There's good old military might, but there's also "preaching"/debating, spying/subterfuge, etc. There's also compromise, like planting trees all along Serpentis Boulevard or something. Vegas, baby.
    Would be great if in addition, there is room for temporary alliance versus bigger existing situational threats etc. And less showy rhetoric that antagonizes. Preaching/debating works better if your audience doesn't enter the room with the idea that Eleusians just want to tear down their walls.
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rangor said:
    Linton said:
    Ok you guys have convinced me. Thanks for the nice log, @Rangor. Sorry @Alrena if it seems I wasn't getting you. Now to the problem at hand... it seems like a war of attrition here, with both sides losing people. Is there anything to be done other than waiting it out? Any room for compromises? If nothing is done, it seems Eleusis would be no better off than its pre-Ren version. Also, just so I can be clear of one thing. Is the anti-civilization/expansionist-Nature policy in Eleusis just policy and therefore changeable, or are they a fixed portion of Eleusis' identity?

    Edit: @Marisella yes I read your description of both houses. It was well written. Thank you for it.
    Would it surprise you if I said the eleusis leaders are working on this? :P
    That's good news. I do hope you guys come up with something that both sides can agree on, -with your hearts-, so to speak. If not, then the same problem will just arise in the future.
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 494Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    As long as it's not going to water down the Nature faction even more: "We're actually pretty cool with roads. Let's build a tower, because FREEDOM!"
     <3 
  • RangorRangor Posts: 2,857Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mathilda said:
    As long as it's not going to water down the Nature faction even more: "We're actually pretty cool with roads. Let's build a tower, because FREEDOM!"
    Wookie towers!
    image
    YselaTysandr
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 3,704Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 17
    Linton said:
    Mathilda said:
    The anti-civilization/expansionist policy of Eleusis is, I think (and believe should be kept), unchangeable. What can be changed is the focus on how to reach this goal. There's good old military might, but there's also "preaching"/debating, spying/subterfuge, etc. There's also compromise, like planting trees all along Serpentis Boulevard or something. Vegas, baby.
    Would be great if in addition, there is room for temporary alliance versus bigger existing situational threats etc. And less showy rhetoric that antagonizes. Preaching/debating works better if your audience doesn't enter the room with the idea that Eleusians just want to tear down their walls.
    Problem with the Temporary Alliance is once it occurs we start seeing the alliances going on for extended periods or the enemy always assumes you will both be together forever. A lot of the Ren. Was to give each faction a stronger identity which conflicts with each other to open up more axis of conflict. We don't need to return to Mhastan or Shalleusis days. 

    Preaching or debate though, oh god yes please.
    Cailin
  • LintonLinton Posts: 58Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Cadak
    Missed your post somehow. Agree with your message of tolerance for different views if healing is to begin very much.

    I quote myself from earlier this thread. 'Whoever can mend the rift is right, no matter which side they are on'. It is easy for me to forget this though as I have my own bias and it gets triggered.

    You talked about the founding of eleusis and I think now that the leaders of both sides are ready to lay things out in the open and find common ground(if I interpreted Rangor correctly), they should remember tha eleusis was founded to be the home for all forestals. This is even more important now than during the founding as forestals no longer have the luxury to go elsewhere. I hope leaders of both sides take special note of this even as try to experiment with new methods to invigorate the faction.

    The past two years is also a valuable lesson to be taken too. Heartwood entered into something they cannot sincerely live with. So this time round, I hope they are extra aware of the implications of whatever deal they struck. Better to be firm with what is acceptable for you now, than to let whatever discontent manifest itself in the future.

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