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Retirement Home Players

IsmayIsmay Member Posts: 269 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
I've noticed quite a few players who were very active in PvP back in the day, who now login and seem to do absolutely nothing at all. These were the players who used to fight so much that some were even referred to as "griefers". They were extraordinarily good at fighting. Now, they seem to be mere shadows of what they used to be.

The point of this discussion is - why would players, who used to enjoy combat enough to drive their opposition batty, get to the point that they just login and sit in one spot without even using Achaea as a chat room, at the least?  It kinda makes me sad to see them listed on CW, QW, etc and hear nothing out of them at all, not a peep. It makes me miss their antics, to be honest.

Do they get bored with the mechanics? I couldn't imagine getting bored with combat. Frustrated, and pissed off? Hell yes. But completely lose interest? That doesn't make much sense to me. Not when we're talking about those who are artied to the teeth, and used to plow down everyone in their way.
AnnekeRom
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Comments

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 9
    Speaking personally, though I was never top-tier by any stretch of the imagination I used to rather enjoy 1v1. It's a matter of interest and motivation. I still talk to folks, RP and do other things, but until I'm interested enough in combat again to get curing set up properly again, learn SnB or Blademaster past concept and theory stages and get a new modem (ours is decrepit, on average I experience 20% packet loss with any given connection. Our speed is excellent though, I've hit up to 250Mbps down, 50 up) I'll only participate in raid defenses.

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Telinus said:
    Motivation is a key factor probably, and the people you use to do stuff with being dormant themselves.

    One thing I always think of about old comatants who were good coming back, is that there was an awful lot of broken stuff back in the day, and it was easy to abuse, and that curing was often very sub-par on a general level, so those willing to fight could win with really stupid stuff that people just straight up didn't know how to cure.
    100% this. I used to think Cain was the shit until I got a paralysis trigger.

    TelinusRileyCaelanTahquil
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,113 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    Telinus said:
    Motivation is a key factor probably, and the people you use to do stuff with being dormant themselves.

    One thing I always think of about old comatants who were good coming back, is that there was an awful lot of broken stuff back in the day, and it was easy to abuse, and that curing was often very sub-par on a general level, so those willing to fight could win with really stupid stuff that people just straight up didn't know how to cure.
    100% this. I used to think Cain was the shit until I got a paralysis trigger.
    Was that at all during the time when he was monk and used to sit in UW kaichoking anybody who entered?

    Although back in those days, spamming curare until the opponent ran out of bloodroot was a legitimate strategy.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - (OOC Clan): Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."



  • MelodieMelodie MhaldorMember Posts: 4,332 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Combat is also changing on a much faster scale than it used to back in the day, to the point that it is very hard for people who don't have 8 hours a day, every day, to dedicate to Achaea to keep up with. And it's probably pretty difficult even for the people who do.

    Also yeah, the whole growing up thing.
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    Aereidhna
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,732 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I've never been much good at 1v1, so let me just start off by saying that I don't really have much practical experience with it, and it isn't something that has ever really interested me. Achaean 1v1 combat these days is a whorl of technicalities and predatory advantages - you're seeking weaknesses and inexperience in your opponents rather than capitalising on their "skill", if that makes sense. It is less about being a better player and more about knowing more of a particular kill route and what is entailed to avoid it, because 99% of the time there is a solid, definitive counter to a method that renders it almost moot. 

    Take the recent Dunn vs Proficy fight for example - both of them are very experienced fighters and thus could read the telegraphs of the other to figure out what path each was taking, and the ensuing fight was something like 20 minutes or more before something finally gave. Anyone can reach this level with enough persistence and dedication.

    Then there's the burden of scripting priorities and other things to counter these, and it's just.. bleegh.

    Group combat for me is where it is at. They're overall much simpler to actually perform than 1v1 combat strategies, and instead rely on group coordination and situational awareness to pull off properly. There's so much more going on - every person's actions mean something in an individual group fight. Don't really draw the same satisfaction from single fights and I doubt I ever will, so I just don't play them.

    So, between group fights, I spend my time as a fixture in rally point, chatting on clans and doing design work or theological stuff with people. Then when the batsignal goes out, I dragonform and promptly breathrain my allies to death or roll support-calls and DPS inside skirmishes. Then I return to my post once the fight is done.
    :pleased::pleased:
    LiyaneAereidhna
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 1,523 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:

    So, between group fights, I spend my time as a fixture in rally point, mindless. Then when the batsignal goes out, I sometimes dragonform and promptly breathrain my allies to death or roll support-calls and DPS inside skirmishes. Then I return to my post once the fight is done.
    ftfy
    Daeir
  • JonathinJonathin A hole in the groundMember Posts: 2,944 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wasn't a great combatant back in the day, but I enjoyed 1v1 or 2v2 for a long time until things started speeding up to the point where a milisecond worth of mistakes meant the difference between life and death.

    Also, growing up a bit meant that I didn't have the time to devote to learning how to cope with the ever-increasing pace of combat, so I just stick/stuck with big group combat.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 362 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The whole "growing up" thing.  But also, at least for me (though I don't sit around, I haven't been as active in combat), is that I decided to write my own curing because SO much had changed that it allowed me to learn a little bit more about the changes and the classes again.  I never liked the <latest system> mentality because now *everyone* can cure and doesn't learn that side, and prios get passed around like trading cards.  My curing is almost done (is it ever done?), but there was a lot of Order stuff I was working on (still have to do a 2 hour trial - in one sitting - that I don't have a lot of time to do).  Now, I need to get back into combat but it seems like unless someone is already pretty solidly at least mid-tier they don't want to spar or fight.  Even if they are top-tier, it is sometimes hard to get a fight.  

    It gives me the overall feel is that the game has gone more towards the people who just want a chat room, or log in just log enough to get a spin/their daily lessons, and an even smaller core group of combatants than before are around. Which is weird that people bitch about RP but then they don't use the built in faction conflict to do anything but make public posts (I blame the Divine for this as well - seriously, just get on CT and say "why are you all standing around and not training to <do your damn job>").  Before, I could ask, say... Cooper for a duel, but there is no reason for him to go easy (or 3/4 speed) now so I can get my feet wet so to speak - especially from a RP standpoint (I guess this could be why there aren't as many combatants too.  A little bit of 'self-preservation of the pecking order'.  No one in the cities like to teach on any sort of grand level, so when someone does try, they get steamrolled).  I know the kill paths, and the theory, but there is NOTHING that compares to the practical application to learn the why and hows and point out flaws in curing.

      I mean, I would love to say "Hey Farrah, I hear you're good.  Mind walking me through some things?"  but there isn't really any reason for *anyone* to say YES, other than actually diversifying the combat pool, which potentially upsets their status in said pool.  And they don't like to spar necessarily because that is not as "+1" as a formal duel. At least a few years ago there was more of a community feel among combatants.  I could say to @Ainly, or Proficy, @Jhui, or Rameus (ok, maybe notsomuch Rameus) -  "hey man, how's this work for x class?" or "why did that just happen?"  because we had fought enough to get to the point we would talk.  That happened with a LOT of IG enemies and it made the combat that much better on both sides.  I don't see a lot of that now, which probably has more to do with a couple semi-kept secrets to defeat the pervasiveness of cookie cutter curing like SVOF and WunderSys, which admittedly always existed but on a much smaller level before (I understand the point of it, I just don't like it).  Could just be me. Could just be that I hate IG politics, and don't fight enough to get back into the "fighter community" or whatever.  

    I will say thanks to @Proficy for a simple "Nice!" when I made one attempt at defending myself in Moghedu. Made me feel like at least it was something he hadn't seen much of and made me think this old dog still has some hunt left.  Had I known about melodar at that point, I would have killed him.  The ensuing runes all over Moghedu showed me that my writhing was boned and I fixed it.

    You know what, whatever. That's a lot of fucking excuses.  Time to get back to work, and then go home and use the 1 or 2 spare hours I have to learn to digitally transmit kill orders.

    BadeCoamenel
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 3,491 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The discussion didn't go away, it just migrated to clans/parties instead. I do think there are less people wanting to 1v1 these days compared to group, since it's so much more difficult to be effective at.

    That said though, you should be able to ask most any of the big names for pointers. I've never said no to anyone who's asked, I doubt Farrah would either. Dunn if you can catch him is solid for it too.

    As far as the popular systems go, you can't install them and run out of the box to 1v1 and expect to win. There is likely always something you're going to need to fix priorities wise, regardless of which system or how long you've had it.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Aerek
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 423 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    1v1 combat is too boring and too slow for me to be seriously interested in it. 

    Basically, I hate the fact that prep classes are even a thing that exists, much less a thing that's so widespread. I hate the fact that momentum classes are balanced around this idea that their enemy will just do a slow prep route to avoid the kill. I hate the fact that most 1v1 fights I see are seemingly balanced around the idea that somebody is gonna do the hit/hit/leave dance, and I hate the fact that this shit makes fights take forever. 

    I'd much rather just do small group fights. Skill still matters there, but the ability to focus multiple offenses on somebody means that the fight doesn't turn into a chase scene.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 973 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 9
    To be honest, lots of random people from other factions have asked me questions OOCly in the exact manner you (@Caelan ) mentioned and I answer them. Pretty sure the same can said for @Dunn when he's around and @Aegoth, as well as some others. You probably just don't feel as much a part of the community because of coming back from dormancy and not fighting as much yet.

    In Targ, there is -tons- of support for Targ up-and-comers. We want more fighters. We want good fighters. I think people would agree with me here. I can't speak as to what's present within the other cities.

    Even outside Targ though, I can say that I personally have no interest in preserving some kind of "status" by excluding others. I play for entertainment, which is only present when there's competition. So I have a strong interest in even IG enemies learning to fight on an OOC level. That being said, I do have time limitations, so I can't really spend enormous amounts of time OOCly helping people outside Targ with combat.

    I would strongly recommend trying to break things down though. Find test targets in your own city who cure well but just stand there and practice killing them until offense is second nature. Then go fight and you'll feel much more comfortable in the fight.
    TorinnTalamondShirszae
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 362 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 9
    Atalkez said:
    The discussion didn't go away, it just migrated to clans/parties instead. I do think there are less people wanting to 1v1 these days compared to group, since it's so much more difficult to be effective at.

    That said though, you should be able to ask most any of the big names for pointers. I've never said no to anyone who's asked, I doubt Farrah would either. Dunn if you can catch him is solid for it too.

    As far as the popular systems go, you can't install them and run out of the box to 1v1 and expect to win. There is likely always something you're going to need to fix priorities wise, regardless of which system or how long you've had it.
    I was actually looking to ask you last night (or maybe it was the night before?) but got busy.  I prefer 1v1 because that's where you learn your abilities better.  And the issue becomes ask X "hey man... wanna help teach me combat" to which the reply tends to be "lol no, RP".   Basically, I won't be switching cities right now, and I don't want to join any other order. I just want to practice.  RP is all good and well, and I get why it would look weird having a Mhaldorian or a Targossian aiding me, a Eleusian, but damn..

    I know you can't run the systems out of the box, which is why I said prios get passed around. It essentially removes an entire aspect of combat (ie, curing and defence) from the equation for people.  Don't get me wrong, I look forward to trying to learn how to abuse the ever-loving shit out of them.

    edit:  @Nazihk - That's what I like about it.  It gets "boring" and that's when people slip. It requires focus and in some cases endurance.

    @Farrah - I usually try and catch Exelethril, and he's been a big help in just showing me the new knight stuff (seriously? WTF?!) and having people stand there is how I learned the kill paths (and some friends giving me a couple pointers here and there).  My issue is, I don't "RP" much / well as I prefer combat, but I always feel weird cold-calling on someone to ask for help.  I don't want to risk ruining THEIR RP.  Especially when I have had very few interactions with them previously.  I mean, I've known of/fought Dunn a fair bit before I was dormant, but it still feels weird saying "Hey Dunn, wanna make it so I can learn to kill you?" even if it is meant entirely on an OOC level, it is still being done IC (if that makes any sense)

    ETE: Thanks though. I will ask you guys IG when I see you around.  If there weren't so MANY changes, I'd be alright but it isn't like maul-prep works all that great now.

  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,858 @ - Epic Achaean
    @Dunn how does do kill pplz?
    Huh. Neat.
    Liyane
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 2,858 @ - Epic Achaean
    Golly gee mister, ur smart! Thanks!
    Huh. Neat.
    TorinnLiyaneDieg
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 423 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Most fighters are really easygoing about helping other people learn how to fight because fighters like fighting and if they want to fight they need people to fight against.
    BlujixapugAerekLiyaneAereidhna
  • SilvarienSilvarien Member Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 9
    never mind, been addressed
  • IceixirIceixir Member Posts: 1
    Am I the only one amused by how the word "fighter" is used for pvp gamers.
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 877 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    I'll make you the best magi there ever was. If only people went magi..... please, I need moar cata squad members, and a Holy Holocaust suicide bomber squad... and and...
    Give me a fortnight and I'll go magi. Gotta bash up dem lessons! Also because I want to see if even you can make me less awful (good luck).
  • CoamenelCoamenel Member Posts: 160 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Being a comeback-kid myself, slumbered through 200 years, I can understand why ex combatants do not pursue combat anymore. So much has changed over the years. 

    -we used to have runies. Period. Now we have DWB, SnB, DWC, 2H variations of them. All different mechanics. I want to get my head around them but they're so confusing. And they seem so common throughout the realms now too. 
    - curing changed. I used to have a good system. I ported IMTS (the one from imperian) and added my triggers to it. Having a system that cured you fast was good enough back in 2005. Now I have lost myself in my prio-handler script for svof more than I can count on both hands. Prio asthma over paralysis? Boom, @Kalila roflstomping me. 1v1 turned into two things: who has the best prios and who knows the most kill routes. A fine example is @Lylith locking me in under 15 seconds as an alchemist. That's just depressingly demotivating for anyone, but a comeback kid remembering the old days may toss the towel right then and there. 
    - thats just the first two big items that spring to mind, there's a lot of stuff (20 year old dragons, really?) that was changed over time. 

    I still like 1v1 though. I got a shitload of crap to learn, stuff I'll never gonna come up with myself. If it wasn't for some people I'd still be axewhoring and ambushing you all. But I like tinkering with systems, it's partly why achaea is such a great game for me to play. (Although I just haven't got the motivation @Caelan has to write up a system from scratch.)
    BadeSobriquet
  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 642 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I probably don't fit the criteria here since I've never been top tier but I did at one time spend 80% of my active game time PKing. Besides the usual breaks from the game and having to put so much effort into catching up with changes, the major change that killed a lot of enjoyment for me was the shift away from illusions and tricks being strong enough to kill people.

    I used to spend hours upon hours theorising ways to trick people's systems and messing around with illusions. I got most of my 1v1 kills with what many combatants consider cheap or cheese strategies. With serverside curing most of these aren't possible anymore, so I lost interest in 1v1.
    Sobriquet
  • KalilaKalila Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Coamenel

    I'm sorry :(
    Coamenel
  • CoamenelCoamenel Member Posts: 160 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kalila said:
    @Coamenel

    I'm sorry :(
    Actually, I need to have more of those 'oh shit' moments. Like I said, I'm never going to work out which prio will have what consequence. I need to experience that shit and then still you'd have to point me to it. So you roflstomping me actually helped :D
  • MagentaMagenta Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sobriquet said:
    So much has changed that you need an encyclopaedic knowledge of every class, every ability, every artifact, every location, every talisman to compete 1v1. I'm 41 with a full time job and family, I have zero time for any of that. Group fights were interesting until crucibles and other pay to win talismans came in, now it's boring to me. I essentially quit playing after numerous Targ raids (Not blaming them, they were just the protagonists at the time). I loved the game, but the game has changed so much it no longer suits me, so I log in randomly to say hi and lurk the forums while I get on with life. 
    So much of this, also for somebody like me who's never been a combatant (especially not 1v1), but whose faction constantly fights (so I constantly defend and also raid occasionally). In 1v1 I'm not good enough (and don't have the interest to invest in setting up properly with highlights and whatnot), in group fights I'm usually okay (Serpent ftw), but the whole combat mechanics are also, I must admit, nothing that attracts me particularly. The politicking and roleplaying opportunities are much more interesting to me. And that... well, it's sorta diminishing at the moment. At least it feels like it.
    SobriquetQuisse
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 362 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 10
    Honestly, I truly feel for the admin / devs.  They have the task of continuing to develop a great game that keeps people coming in and buying credits.  And for YEARS people bitched about the staleness of combat and how it "wasn't realistic" that the only knights were DWC...  They change it, add TONS of depth, and now we all bitch it's too much.    People complained it was so P2P that combat was reserved for the elite or the rich..  they make it so you can get TONS of arties and stuff IG, people bitch, myself included because they took away some of mine and then I could have just gotten some IG talismans for some others so I feel like I wasted my money (despite knowing it helped fund the game)

    @Tecton @Makarios @Nicola @adminInGeneral  Keep up the good work. Don't let our whiny bitching stop you (except, apparently, when it comes to the Wheel of Whining..then change the hell out of it NOW!)

    BadeMathildaLiyane
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