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  • FrederichFrederich Posts: 1,243Member @ - Epic Achaean
    I gotta admit.

    Targossas' (or at least the Harbinger's) approach to HR is.. really god damn tedious.  I got to skip a bit because I'm not a complete twit, and also level 100, but..  You have to go through the Academy to learn about Good.  Which is already a pain enough in the ass to make you go "GOD DAMNIT".  You've gotta learn to hunt, etc etc.  All while Targ gets raided and you're told to go cower and hide, or some other equivalent.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but whatever.

    HR1-3, in Cyrene, is literally the newbie steps (was the same for like.  Merchants too). You get to HR3 for just not sucking.  Which, sure, not exactly an issue, but it also gives a basic history/knowledge of the city and house in general.  Sweet, you may think.  Well...

    Targossas teaches that in the academy (probably).  Harbingers you get to HR1.  need to get 3 points to get to HR2.  leading prayers, collecting books that the city/house doesn't already have, possibly having a theological debate (which is <3 <3 <3 I wanna do this, but I don't know who to do it WITH).  HR1 > HR2 is 3.  HR2 > HR3 is 5.. HR3 > HR4 is like 10 or something.  It's a bit asinine by that point, and requires a grand ol bit of grinding, and without actually ever leading the house, you'll never get beyond HR5 with ease.

    Not that there really is any incentive to do so besides "SLIGHTLY CHEAPER CREDITS!!!"  Which is in and of itself, an issue.  There's no real damn incentive besides raising in house rank outside of slightly decreased prices of credits, with bound being ultimately cheaper.  The hours I can put in working between HR4 and HR5 will likely be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 8-10 hours of work.  8-10 hours of work that I could just put in hunting.  Not that that isn't tedious to do now that I hit level 99. 

    Now, this isn't to say that I'm hating on the Harbingers.  They're really sweet, it's just god damn awkward of a transition between Cyrene to Targossas where the Houses are forced to teach people shit vs the Academy, which holds no real ground outside of the newbies.  Which I mean.  Hey, that''s kinda nice.  It just has DAMN HARSH requirements to raise up in the house.  Also city ranks are different, but you have to work your ass off to keep them, as compared to Cyrene's one-and-done sort of ordeal unless you fuck up and get city disfavoured and 4 months of work just gets destroyed in and instant because you killed a city mate who asked you to be killed.

    All in all, houses give a lot of busy work for no real damn reason.  The difference between being in a house, and not being in a house, is there's a bit of immersion to be gained from having other people to talk to, and even goof off with.  Generally leading to cities being divided in half, or into thirds, and folks liking to hang out more-so with their buddies in their half/third over folks with-out.  Course, just going houseless causes you to get a bit less in the way of credits, but you hang out with everyone and just sort of not have to worry about house deadlines looming over your head like a wicked game of whack-a-mole.
    Boosteya
  • SarathaiSarathai Posts: 2,139Member
    Frederich said:
    leading prayers, collecting books that the city/house doesn't already have, possibly having a theological debate (which is <3 <3 <3 I wanna do this, but I don't know who to do it WITH).
    Maybe try to sort something out with Eleusis HR3s or something. Scions might be interested, too.

    In fairness to Targ, I've heard a lot of Targ players say that they think the city would be better off with two houses than three, but I don't really interact with it enough to know more than that.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    NataliiaAziikBoosteya
  • BadeBade Posts: 114Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    So I got to say that I like the current ways houses are and how they're set up. Mind you I'm not past HR3 yet but so far they seem not much different than how the old Serpent Lords were set up for advancement, and only reason I'm not past HR3 is I've been taking my time. Honestly though I have only trued two houses but I love them both, the Isidium and the Krymian Academy, but the house tasks have been interesting even if they do require a good bit of reading, it's what I come to do. I guess if I wasn't as interested in the lore it would be harder. I just hope at least these two don't change.

    @Frederich any time you want to debate look up Bade, he doesn't debate much but loves discussing different points of view, just try and convert him.
    Boosteya
  • VesiosVesios Posts: 243Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Frederich echoing Bade here. Vesios would vomit theology and philosophical discussions at you for real life hours, feel free to hit him up if you can't find anyone else and are at a loss. 
    NataliiaBoosteya
  • FrederichFrederich Posts: 1,243Member @ - Epic Achaean
    @Sarathai / @Daeir

    The Harbingers have really taken off in my time being there.  Not for lack of @Xaden trying to steal people away for happy fun times with the dawnblade.

    ALso, @Vesios / @Bade I'm sooooo down.  I'll need to set it up w/ Torinn but lemme it set up
    Boosteya
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Frederich said:
    @Sarathai / @Daeir

    The Harbingers have really taken off in my time being there.  Not for lack of @Xaden trying to steal people away for happy fun times with the dawnblade.

    ALso, @Vesios / @Bade I'm sooooo down.  I'll need to set it up w/ Torinn but lemme it set up
    It's because of the people more than the House identity, and while that isn't exactly a bad thing perse, the people may not always be there to make it great.
    Boosteya
  • OmorOmor Posts: 756Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Illarion said:

    It honestly feels like the whole of Ashtan just waits around for Jhui and team to go raid somewhere for reasons.  And that's what we do.  (And yes, I know, some of that is timezone related, but only some of it).

    This is one of the couple pretty large reasons I left Ashtan. I didn't play in Jhui Timezone. :/
    Omor Ceberek - Targossas

    got gud
    MishgulValariaBoosteya
  • SarathaiSarathai Posts: 2,139Member
    Omor said:
    Illarion said:

    It honestly feels like the whole of Ashtan just waits around for Jhui and team to go raid somewhere for reasons.  And that's what we do.  (And yes, I know, some of that is timezone related, but only some of it).

    This is one of the couple pretty large reasons I left Ashtan. I didn't play in Jhui Timezone. :/
    In fairness to Ashtan/Jhui, this isn't entirely uncommon for any city, in my experience. People tend to rally behind a handful of "combat leaders" where raids/defiling/group combat in general are concerned. It's arguably more prominent in Ashtan owing to the A-team being, well, the A-team, but there will always be a strong current of it no matter where you go if there isn't anybody else to step up and be one of those leaders.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    OxyNataliiaBoosteya
  • ExelethrilExelethril PhD ScientologyPosts: 3,162Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If Jhui went dormant, p sure Ashtan will become a guard bashing ground. Though fck, where did my 20-man Eleusian dragon army go.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    ValariaBoosteya
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAPosts: 1,813Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As a tangential point, I also have to agree that making the Luminai a House was a very ambitious, risky gamble that--while an intoxicating idea--has not seemed to pay off. In an attempt to lend legitimacy to a new House by co-opting the legacy of a pivotal historical entity, it has more resulted in the dilution of the historical Luminai's legacy, and that's unfortunate.

    I think that's partially a function of smaller population. I've said before that I don't think Targossas can reliably sustain 3 houses. The Luminai might be fine if it was merged with the Harbingers instead of dividing the "non-combat" players between the two. Mhaldor's Houses both doing reasonably well seems to support this theory.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    BadeBoosteyaHalos
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,605Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The historical Luminai had both templars and priests in it, and intelligence gathering in modern Achaea isn't really a purely "non-combat" activity. Combatants often have to use stealth/espionage related techniques for their own purposes, so they learn to do them well. I really think the Luminai would thrive the most if it was a separate org members of either House could join.

    Add people like me and Antidas, as well as people like Talamond and Torinn, all into the mix, without taking us all from our current Houses, and I think we'd have something really cool.
    AerekBoosteyaAntidasAlaskar
  • VesiosVesios Posts: 243Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2017
    I don't know about anyone else but I'm still a little pissed that Eleusis didn't get an explorer house, like a nature-themed Outriders. You'd think getting out there a truly cataloging or experiencing nature outside of the forests (or more specifically the Ithmia, if we're being honest with ourselves) would be a seriously cool premise for a house and it would help to decentralize the village a bit again. 

    The Kin seems to be a combination of the Sylvan and Druid houses, which I think is perfectly fine as there was a lot of overlap between those two houses pre-Renaissance. But the Scions, from a house less perspective anyway, really do just seem like Sentinels 2.0 without "Sentinels" in the name. Eleusis in general is a fighting city so I think it would've been cool if army stuff was merged into the village in general, or if it was made a clan or something. As it stands it doesn't really seem like the Scions add anything that isn't already there, not when you have almost everyone participating in raid defense, no matter their house. 
    AetheleBoosteya
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 667Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Daeir the thing is that there simply aren't enough players to have super focused houses/guilds any more. While I agree it would be pretty fun to have a more solid identity, you would have two or three guilds/houses with the majority of the player base and all others would have one or two people at most. As has been said even with three in Targ it is stretching it. I'm trying really hard to give the Harbingers a strong knowledge and preaching oriented identity while also fostering our interest in combat and other areas and getting the things done that the Bloodsworn want us to get done.

    @Frederich yes advancement in later stages in the house gets to be more grindy but quite often people are promoted to full membership through awesome RP activities, teaching, creating rituals, the like. The points are there for guidance and as a goal, but I will always always reward awesome stuff. You want to do a debate? Heck yeah. You feel like being a traveling preacher? Love it. Whatever interests you the most you should do it, and progression will come. Maybe the scrolls should be edited to reflect that more.

    No there isn't a big mechanical benefit for increasing in rank but I doubt there was one in the old system either. In both cases it's "bragging rights". Proving to others via your rank that you know what you're doing. I progressed because that's what my character wanted not for cheaper credits. I like long and impressive titles, having the new people look at me and go "ooooh I look up to him".  This game is what we make of it, so if there isn't something you like then help us fix it.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    BadeBoosteyaElipise
  • AlrenaAlrena Posts: 572Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Vesios said:
    I don't know about anyone else but I'm still a little pissed that Eleusis didn't get an explorer house, like a nature-themed Outriders. You'd think getting out there a truly cataloging or experiencing nature outside of the forests (or more specifically the Ithmia, if we're being honest with ourselves) would be a seriously cool premise for a house and it would help to decentralize the village a bit again. 

    The Kin seems to be a combination of the Sylvan and Druid houses, which I think is perfectly fine as there was a lot of overlap between those two houses pre-Renaissance. But the Scions, from a house less perspective anyway, really do just seem like Sentinels 2.0 without "Sentinels" in the name. Eleusis in general is a fighting city so I think it would've been cool if army stuff was merged into the village in general, or if it was made a clan or something. As it stands it doesn't really seem like the Scions add anything that isn't already there, not when you have almost everyone participating in raid defense, no matter their house. 
    The Kin and Scions were both supposed to be offering exploration. The Kin would focus on exploring Nature (within) and the Scions other cultures and potential threats (without). The army -was- merged into the Village, under the Eleusian Rangers clan, as a separate combat path. The Scions are far from the Sentinels, they just do not have the outward presence to show what they are all about. I was too burned out to help that House to where it should be, which may always be a regret.

    That said, I still believe in the potential of the Renaissance. The Houses just need time and the right people to build a distinct culture. I think the Mhaldorian Houses are putting in the right effort, with good, motivated people to do just that.
    image
    BadeVesiosBoosteyaAilea
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't buy the "need time" shtick. They've been pretty much an open book to some really creative leaders for a long time now and we've not seen any striking revelations from a single House.

    It obviously isn't the people in the Houses that are the issue anymore. Founding for organisational/institutional support has to come from beyond as well as from within.
    KeorinBoosteyaSarathai
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 733Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Farrah
    Agreed, the Harbingers have finally hammered out a definitive identity within the city and just cramming the Luminai in would destroy that. 

    I do quite like the idea of the Luminai being a connecting web within the city, I think that would help unify the rift, for lack of a better term, between the combatants and non-combatants.


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
    BoosteyaElipise
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Look, I'll just be brutally honest here.

    The Harbingers as a House just don't have much discernible identity. Especially outwardly. There's no major signets or icons that are quintessentially "Harbinger", there are no lasting and lingering duties or processions that are fundamentally "Harbinger" at the core. There's the rote prayers and maybe sometimes the occasional sermons, the former of which is not really a reflection on the House more than it is rote ritual, and the latter is more a personal reflection on the orator rather than any principle reckoning from the Harbingers themselves.

    The group of people currently playing in the Harbingers have very compelling identities and a solid group between them all. You all get along like a house on fire (haw haw) and you're all very animated and engaged with each other. That's great, but it doesn't reflect much on the House's identity. It's kind of similar to how the Occultists were so predominantly aligned towards their active "personality", be it Flair or Amunet or whatever.

    There's no sects, no ritual, no lasting iconography, no tie in of Harbinger duties directly into major Targossian lore or anything of the sort. They don't have the lineage and namesake of the Luminai, nor do they have the heading and the standing of the Dawnblade as the natural progression from the Dawnguard military tradition. Personality cults and groups of friends playing together does not a House identity make. The moment the group dissipates, so too does the outward facing presence of the House.

    So it isn't really an "identity" in the first place. Does that make sense? Every leader in the House's history has grappled with this fact. That's why two of them supported merging the House together with the Luminai, even in the wake of disapproval from the Bloodsworn.

    Identity has to be affixed to something else in the world. The Empyreal had orphans and the Church, the grand lineage of the early period of Good and actual lore-supported relevance. They're a blank page in that regard, waiting for someone to fill it in. The Harbingers are the new kid on the block without any significant image or "fantasy" attached to them to support them.

    Again, please don't take this as an attack on the people running or playing in the House. I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who was once chosen to lead the House (and did a relatively underwhelming job in that regard). I've often felt that the Harbinger concept as a whole was largely an afterthought. Kind of a "oh shit we've reworked the theologian House into a merchant/espionage one". It certainly came across that way when they were announced, especially after the Luminai reveal.
    KeorinBoosteya
  • IsrayhlIsrayhl Posts: 121Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2017
    Personally, I think the hardest part with Houses, as a whole, is that 15+ years of identity was thrown out for the renaissance. The new Houses, as a whole, are young in comparison to the game. The old Houses started as guilds and, as @Mishgul said, there was usually a rather compelling event that created the guild and fostered a foundational identity. Some of the Houses are slowly creating that (The Shield, insofar, was the best example that I've seen), but most are still trying to find their footing in an entirely new landscape without simply recycling ideas and becoming Naga/Maldaathi/Occultist 2.0. 

    That said, I think one thing that is often forgotten is how much time and work went into each of these organisations to make them as memorable and nostalgic as they are to many. When the guilds first came out, in many cases, they were little more than class dispensaries. That could be said even more so for the Houses when they shifted to them. It took a lot of sweat, tears, and frustrated arguments to hash out compelling identities for these organisations that kept people coming back and staying engaged. I feel the hardest part is not necessarily the requirements, but the effort leaders want to put in to 're-doing' the culture of these Houses. 

    I can't blame anyone, though, for not wanting to throw out 15 years worth of effort and start from scratch. That SUCKS and I know from my short time as HoN of the Dread Legates that it is extremely hard to say, "Let's come up with a compelling identity that completely avoids coming off as any of the old Houses, while still keeping Evil at the forefront but being a special snowflake." Personally, I am trying to give the Houses time to create their culture. Most of the Houses are a couple years or less old at this point. It is going to take a lot of time to really create something meaningful in ANY of them (as a general rule), and even more time for that meaning to stick and pervade the game's culture on a global level. 

    -- Edit: @Nataliia, get outta my head. 
    BadeBoosteya
  • NataliiaNataliia Posts: 305Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Torinn said:
    @Daeir the thing is that there simply aren't enough players to have super focused houses/guilds any more. While I agree it would be pretty fun to have a more solid identity, you would have two or three guilds/houses with the majority of the player base and all others would have one or two people at most. As has been said even with three in Targ it is stretching it. I'm trying really hard to give the Harbingers a strong knowledge and preaching oriented identity while also fostering our interest in combat and other areas and getting the things done that the Bloodsworn want us to get done.
    I would argue this until I'm blue in the face. Achaea has, on average, at least twice as many players in our low-pop hours as any other IRE game at their high peak hours, and many of the guilds/houses/whatevers in other games have not struggled with having super focused orgs. It has far less to do with the population, and everything to do with a lack of drive within said population.

    People are continually comparing houses (and I'm guilty of having done this or thought this too) to old guilds. Well, old guilds had to start somewhere too, they didn't just suddenly crop up in Achaea chalk full of identity and purpose and drive! Houses are pretty green, considering they all got changed within the last year-ish? Add to that the whole nostalgic desire to make new houses more like old guilds, to recycle identities, etc., because God knows it takes too much work to be original. I mean don't get me wrong, why change a good thing if it's truly a good thing right? But still, the admins obviously wanted to shift the game, so they did. It's the player resistance that's making houses lackluster. People spend all their time on the forums whining about how directionless they are and how awful they are, instead of doing something about it IC. Instead of looking at them as a blank slate that's ripe for new imaging we're still lamenting what was, and seeing the old picture. Time to move on.
    Boosteya
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,605Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I think the Harbingers have a pretty strong identity. There's even some room for some of what Aerek was talking about in terms of differences of opinion and approach, just in a different way.

    Harbingers: ritualists/teachers/healers; believe all can be redeemed; duty is to heal and lead others back to the Light

    Dawnblade: warriors/protectors, recognize the reality that not all will be redeemed; cut away that which is beyond redemption

    There's potential for these to align, where one redeems those who can be redeemed and the other destroys those who cannot. But there's also potential for tension in the varying beliefs as to who can be healed and cleansed and who should just be destroyed.

    Theoretically, the Luminai are the ones who gather and analyse information in order to determine who needs healing/conversion and who needs destruction. There just aren't enough people to justify this warranting a separate House.

    ShirszaeBoosteyaElipise
  • VesiosVesios Posts: 243Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 2017
    The more I read about Targ's houses in this thread the more I think of how cool it'd be for the Luminai to be like a secret society type of deal, like the Illuminati of Good or maybe just literally the Knight's Templar. Work in the shadows to save the light. Very exclusive, very hard to get into, but very prestigious, the very upper echelon of Targossas society, the ones who run the show.
    ShaydeBoosteyaAntidasAziik
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